[Outdated as of 4.0.17+]PSA: New FE building techs are mathmatically kinda just a scam.

[Thiend]

But replicator don't need pops who then can do other things (for example - working in forge world with ancient refinery) AND can produce Rare resources like valuable (in terms of sell price) Zro, or Nanites. Replicator is not used as alternative to refinery, but as addition.

It's completely pointless as an addition.

It's sort of like how, with Nanotech ascension, you can get nanites from sources other than the starbase building... but so few that there's no point whatsoever.

The Replicator gives so few crystals/motes/gas that it just doesn't matter. It doesn't give enough to supply, for example, researchers when they start needing it, so you WILL need the regular buildings, which don't require additional pops to work those jobs (just to supply minerals) and produce multiple orders of magnitude more of them.

The niche the Replicator does still have is producing resources you otherwise can't normally scale up, but for the basic three strategic resources it's essentially pointless. You will already have enough production to make it irrelevant and it will not replace that production so you'll still need it.

 

[Metallichydra]

The niche the Replicator does still have is producing resources you otherwise can't normally scale up, but for the basic three strategic resources it's essentially pointless. You will already have enough production to make it irrelevant and it will not replace that production so you'll still need it.

Even then it's debatable whether or not it is worth it since you can just buy them on the market.
Except nanites.

 

[ahicaar]

But replicator don't need pops who then can do other things (for example - working in forge world with ancient refinery) AND can produce Rare resources like valuable (in terms of sell price) Zro, or Nanites. Replicator is not used as alternative to refinery, but as addition.

Refineries don’t use jobs anymore, either. They’re just an add on to the metallurgists you need to have anyway, and give you hundreds of strategics per month for the cost of a building slot. The fabricator is not even slightly competitive with that.

 

[DelphineasSD]

But replicator don't need pops who then can do other things (for example - working in forge world with ancient refinery) AND can produce Rare resources like valuable (in terms of sell price) Zro, or Nanites. Replicator is not used as alternative to refinery, but as addition.

I had to double-check the wiki because I had no idea WTF you were talking about.

I guess I just missed that most of the t1 resource buildings(Energy, Minerals, Food, Alloys) produce a small amount of base resources, so I guess they aren't terrible. But why in the HELL would I waste a building slot on a mere +3 Motes/Gas/Crystals a month?! Especially at the cost of 5 Alloys a month?!

I'm a silly player, so I don't mind the one colony event that has puking creatures give you gas PER POP and don't shoot them on sight. Then there is the gas vent event, and I just realized while typing that the Replicator won't even cover the SR upkeep on the other buildings on the planet, so again, WHY DOES THIS TRASHPILE EXITS?!



Maybe the wiki is just outdated, but for the vast majority of the FE building list, I'm looking at the tier 1 buildings and wondering why this is 'better' than my t3 normal buildings that DON'T require alloy upkeep.

 

[ShoGuL]

Refineries don’t use jobs anymore, either. They’re just an add on to the metallurgists you need to have anyway, and give you hundreds of strategics per month for the cost of a building slot. The fabricator is not even slightly competitive with that.

Wilderness rare resources still work the same way as before iirc, each building gives 100 refining pop jobs. So they have ONE use case.

 

[15JTaylor]

I know others have already said something, but I've still gotta say something. The fallen empire buildings are only decent if they are spammable.

For instance, the alloy fe building gets you 25 alloys flat. That's literally nothing. A good amount of alloys late game for a crisis is 2500 alloys at least. For ×25, you'd need ateast 10k, more the merrier as far as I'm concerned. To get an amount that'd matter you'd need a hundred of these buildings. Which is absolutely ridiculous. The jobs they create, would need pops to work them.

It's the same story for most of them. The food fe empire building. 150 food 5% Habitability. The Habitability in meaningless at that point.

Why would the devs sink so much time nerfing this stuff? When I saw this in the patch notes I just laughed. They put so much time and effort into this when there are more imortant things to do.

The only fe buildings that actually breaks the balance is the pop assembly buildings. Pre 4.0, you could get the robot assemby building spammed on a planet enough for over a 100 rpbot assembly a month. THAT'S the issue. Not 150 food or 25 alloys. Also, cosmogenesis with a proper working lathe could get research down to one a month.

FE buildings are only good if they are spammable. Empire limiting them destroys their usefulness.

Planet limit the pop assembly buildings to 1 a planet like literally every other pop assembly building. Nerf EE ascension perk to only being allowed to research 4 FE buildings using that perk. The good news here is this would relatively be easy and require very little dev work.

 

[Uburian]

Cosmogenesis has two reasonable unique features: the Synaptic Lathe, the strongest source of research in the entire game (even after a huge nerf, this would still be incredible value for one perk... at least, once they fix it being bugged), and the Horizon Needle as a peaceful and easy win condition. It does not need exclusive access to an entire tier 6 of building techs, leviathan and Nanotech-exclusive components, and a tier of uncapped ships I hesitate to call 5 and 6 because they're vastly stronger than that numbering even implies.

It tramples on features outside of itself and renders FE tech unavailable except to a specific crisis perk, while being overpowered enough to remove the challenge from the game completely. That's terrible design.

I have always felt that tying FE technology to Cosmogenesis, and The Machine Age in general, was a terrible mistake.

Thematically it makes certain sense if we assume that said technology is far too advanced to research conventionally in a reasonable time-frame, but it would be far better for the game if researching FE technologies, and actually becoming an awakened empire, was tied to an ascension mechanic everyone could opt to (not a Crisis path that, in essence, feels like an empire ascension with caveats).

If every empire could end up researching those technologies they would not be OP, they would just be a part of the tech and ascension tree (if they were sensibly balanced and fun to use that is, which the current building restrictions are not).

 

[ahicaar]

I have always felt that tying FE technology to Cosmogenesis, and The Machine Age in general, was a terrible mistake.

Thematically it makes certain sense if we assume that said technology is far too advanced to research conventionally in a reasonable time-frame, but it would be far better for the game if researching FE technologies, and actually becoming an awakened empire, was tied to an ascension mechanic everyone could opt to (not a Crisis path that, in essence, feels like an empire ascension with caveats).

If every empire could end up researching those technologies they would not be OP, they would just be a part of the tech and ascension tree (if it was sensibly balanced and fun to use that is, which the current building restrictions are not).

Sigh.

The entire point of fallen empire technology is to be beyond the scope of "normies." The entire point of cosmogenesis is to be the child playing with a loaded gun they aren't ready to handle. The question of cosmo not having nearly enough risk involved for what they're getting is the thing that should be remedied. Not simply making FE stuff the new "final tech tier" for everyone.

 

[Thiend]

Sigh.

The entire point of fallen empire technology is to be beyond the scope of "normies." The entire point of cosmogenesis is to be the child playing with a loaded gun they aren't ready to handle. The question of cosmo not having nearly enough risk involved for what they're getting is the thing that should be remedied. Not simply making FE stuff the new "final tech tier" for everyone.

The melodrama doesn't change why Cosmogenesis as designed is a bad idea.

The other two crisis perks are united in providing you with something objectively powerful that you also don't care much about if you aren't actually going for it thematically. Behemoths are not useful to someone who isn't intending to use them as Behemoths. Star Eaters aren't very useful to someone who isn't intending to blow up the galaxy.

Cosmogenesis is ALREADY just a final tech tier for everyone. That's the problem. Only Nemesis and Behemoth empires have their final tier locked behind Nemesis and Behemoth Fury. EVERY empire has their final tier locked behind Cosmogenesis.

If you're militarist, Cosmogenesis has the best ships. If you want to defend yourself, Cosmogenesis has the best ships. If you're a Megacorp, Cosmogenesis has the best trade. If you're a biological empire, Cosmogenesis has the best lifespan and growth bonuses. If you're mechanical, Cosmogenesis has the best assembly.

If you're going diplomatic Cosmogenesis offers weight from these ships, economic bonuses, and techs to outvote any number of non-Cosmogenesis empires. It has the best diplomatic weight.

The things that are appropriate for Cosmogenesis as unique features aren't random. It's the Horizon Needle and the Synaptic Lathe both because they're more than enough for Cosmogenesis to be unique and because they are, equally importantly, not important general tier-ups for anyone else.

 

[snowy801]

Sigh.

The entire point of fallen empire technology is to be beyond the scope of "normies." The entire point of cosmogenesis is to be the child playing with a loaded gun they aren't ready to handle. The question of cosmo not having nearly enough risk involved for what they're getting is the thing that should be remedied. Not simply making FE stuff the new "final tech tier" for everyone.

The entire point of fallen empires is to be uneclipsable juggernauts, but they are trivial obstacles that can be overcome in 70 years.

Also, that's literally just your opinion. Don't make baseless claims as though they are fact. Edit: and be extremely condescending at the same time.

 

[Ion_492]

FE buildings are only good if they are spammable. Empire limiting them destroys their usefulness.

Planet limit the pop assembly buildings to 1 a planet like literally every other pop assembly building. Nerf EE ascension perk to only being allowed to research 4 FE buildings using that perk. The good news here is this would relatively be easy and require very little dev work.

EE before the FE building changes allowed you to research 3 of them and their upgrades, which might've been a bit too powerful because of how freely you can spam them. Limiting the empire cap is not a good idea, especially for cosmogenesis. They should just revert them back to what they were in 4.0.14 until they have more of the 4.0 figured out.

On a side note, 4 of them are pretty good. The research ones gives you over double the jobs and bonus research as regular research complexes, while also being able to be built on energy/mining/farming research support districts unlike research complexes. The trade buildings gave you 300 traders, while the FE versions gave you 1800 when upgraded as well as +1% empire trade value, and more trade per traders. Shrinkspace depots are also useful, and the medical buildings are great if you're bio ascended.

 

[Rafss]

That is exactly my point, crisis paths should have a freaking risk involved, otherwise they would be extra skilltrees, extra ascension paths.
BtC triggers galatic war, Cosmogenesis angers FEs, the water is wet, and EA Games is a terrible company; all is fine and should stay like that.
Now if you dillute the challenge from Cosmogenesis into everyone else, what the hell is it even about? It was such a solid story element, and now it is being dilluted into a slop.

Speaking of Fallen Empire technology, I know there is a tendency for all their fancy toys to become accessible over time, Utopia was the first big hit at the fantasy (buildable Ringworlds), but such tremendous success meant that breaking those fantasies actually pays out in sales and everyone gets to have more fun too.
But still I think the line has to be drawn somewhere, otherwise they will have to come up with idk Fallen Empire 2 The Hidden Celestial Ancient Ones with even more mindbogging impossible-hyperdimensional technology to inspire some shock and awe from players.

 

[snowy801]

But still I think the line has to be drawn somewhere, otherwise they will have to come up with idk Fallen Empire 2 The Hidden Celestial Ancient Ones with even more mindbogging impossible-hyperdimensional technology to inspire some shock and awe from players.

I see no problems here. Paradox, please (after the bugs and balance and performance though) and thank you.

 

[15JTaylor]

EE before the FE building changes allowed you to research 3 of them and their upgrades, which might've been a bit too powerful because of how freely you can spam them. Limiting the empire cap is not a good idea, especially for cosmogenesis. They should just revert them back to what they were in 4.0.14 until they have more of the 4.0 figured out.

On a side note, 4 of them are pretty good. The research ones gives you over double the jobs and bonus research as regular research complexes, while also being able to be built on energy/mining/farming research support districts unlike research complexes. The trade buildings gave you 300 traders, while the FE versions gave you 1800 when upgraded as well as +1% empire trade value, and more trade per traders. Shrinkspace depots are also useful, and the medical buildings are great if you're bio ascended.

Yeah, exactly. Even the trade valie building requires spamming. 1% empire trade value is nice, but it'll take at least 10 of them to be strong. And that's one of the objectively stronger ones. The food, minerals, alloys, etc one are terrible at basically any point

 

[Thiend]

[. . .]even more mindbogging impossible-hyperdimensional technology to inspire some shock and awe from players.

This is the Synaptic Lathe and Horizon Needle.

We don't need to add more for Cosmogenesis to be going beyond what is otherwise possible. It literally just needs those two tools, and all the rest is unnecessary and bad to gate behind it.

 

[RingworldUtopia]

That is exactly my point, crisis paths should have a freaking risk involved, otherwise they would be extra skilltrees, extra ascension paths.
BtC triggers galatic war, Cosmogenesis angers FEs, the water is wet, and EA Games is a terrible company; all is fine and should stay like that.
Now if you dillute the challenge from Cosmogenesis into everyone else, what the hell is it even about? It was such a solid story element, and now it is being dilluted into a slop.

Speaking of Fallen Empire technology, I know there is a tendency for all their fancy toys to become accessible over time, Utopia was the first big hit at the fantasy (buildable Ringworlds), but such tremendous success meant that breaking those fantasies actually pays out in sales and everyone gets to have more fun too.
But still I think the line has to be drawn somewhere, otherwise they will have to come up with idk Fallen Empire 2 The Hidden Celestial Ancient Ones with even more mindbogging impossible-hyperdimensional technology to inspire some shock and awe from players.

the fallen empires exist to be surpassed. that's the point. you're supposed to get tech better than them eventually, and beat them, and then tell them "now get the HELL out of our galaxy"

have you never watched babylon 5? this is like a fan of the Vorlons being like "noooo, why do the rangers have living ships? that's what made the ancients unique, living ships should be for the Vorlon and the Shadows and NO ONE ELSE".

 

[Lykayla]

Another issue with the new system is how awful the research section clog is. It gets so clogged up with the FE building research that you can't do your repeatable techs that you actually want to do to make a stronger fleet etc.

The new FE building system sucks.

 

[-Marauder-]

A lot of them are plain bad.

A couple of them are decent, but only if spammed.

And only 1-2 are genuinely great, but mostly when you can upgrade them. Which now you can't anymore.

 

[Voidian]

Agreed, FE are supposed to be reached, but not early, their entire content is meant to be late game, just like the endgame crisis, war in heaven also can only happen after the endgame date is reached, if we're reaching them by midgame something is seriously wrong with the pacing of research.

I also think FE are rather bland, before 4.0 it was rather common to see random AI empires simply walking over and destroying them even before 2350, they used to be far more impressive.

It would be nice if they all used unique research for every weapon, building, armor and ship designs, something that was extremely rare for players to obtain, like those rare technologies that don't often show up, perhaps even dangerous research with the possibility of very negative consequences.

Something like a Tier 3 dark matter X slot weapon variants and since shields already exist, something higher than those.

Might even make battling them more tempting, just so we can get our hands into technology we otherwise wouldn't be guaranteed to ever find.

 

[DiscoRay]

It would be nice if they all used unique research for every weapon, building, armor and ship designs, something that was extremely rare for players to obtain, like those rare technologies that don't often show up, perhaps even dangerous research with the possibility of very negative consequences.

Something like a Tier 3 dark matter X slot weapon variants and since shields already exist, something higher than those.

Might even make battling them more tempting, just so we can get our hands into technology we otherwise wouldn't be guaranteed to ever find.

You can get most of this via mods. With the Gigastructures one you can config FEs to be far more powerful than by default, including giving them Attack Moon and Planetcraft ships, and the eventual means to match/overcome them via the Extra Components NEXT mod. I can't play games anymore without them, as it feels an empty experience by comparison to vanilla.

Between the already set DLC plans, and what they still need to fix/balance from the botched 4.0 update, I can't see the official game version getting that sort of content or changes anytime soon, if ever.