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Yes, it seems "slightly" broken ATM. 13k Unity and 16k Research by 2060 (3k and 5k by 2030) with one single planet (and 1x tech and unity).
I feel the nerf hammer coming.
I feel the nerf hammer coming.
Try cyber dictatorship with enforcer spam.
That is actually broken as it has a potential for infinite scaling.
Infinite Efficiency.
That is actually broken as it has a potential for infinite scaling.
Infinite Efficiency.
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Maybe the answer is to limit the number of working Denizens to a thousand or two? Although that might cause issues with Gestalts and how Amenity limited they are.
The issue is deeper, as my example with the Enforcers in Cyber Dictatorship was meant to show.
Some jobs are just way too overpowered in the new system.
Basically all job efficiency boni should be moved entirely from jobs to buildings. This should prevent efficiency loops and getting too much bonus by spamming a single jobtype.
The downside to this is that then those boni become independent from if pops are working at the building or not.
The downside to this is that then those boni become independent from if pops are working at the building or not.
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I think the better solution could be that efficienvy boost do not affect the pop that creates them.
Still means you need that job but can not create loops
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Have you tested that strategy with broken shackles origin and xeno compatability rush? It looked like it was the pop growth and unemployed citizens that was powerful and not the telepaths.
Anyway it does look like stellaris 4.0 balance is completely broken on so many levels that it might not be very fun to play in multiplayer.
Anyway it does look like stellaris 4.0 balance is completely broken on so many levels that it might not be very fun to play in multiplayer.
It is very much the telepaths.
THe pop growth and the unemployed citizens is just to get to them as early as possible.
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The main part of the strategy is the civilian-spam, which was nerfed already.
Telepath Spam is strong, yes - but it's only 4x stronger than Cyborg Copworld (Telepaths give 10 unity rather than 5 and +10% output from jobs rather than +5%) - it's only really adding science to telepaths with makes this super-powered.
And the most important thing is that unless you're stacking two OP strats together (Clone Armies + Civvy Spam) for the absurd "finish your ascension by 2213" starter, you only get this bonus around the midgame, unless you rush unity. And if you rush unity, you're quickly losing the value from telepath's intrinsic resource output (again, discounting the Whisperer Covenant) so it's only the spamable +50% Output building.
Which is all to say that yes this is strong and yes it's the strongest Ascension, but the video title, the thread, everything pointing the finger at Telepaths is misleading. The real power is having extreme early game pop growth coupled with the way civilian-based economy was working (prior to the C.G. hotfix). Which was important in 4.0 where Pops grow pops a lot more than planets grow pops.
Telepath Spam is strong, yes - but it's only 4x stronger than Cyborg Copworld (Telepaths give 10 unity rather than 5 and +10% output from jobs rather than +5%) - it's only really adding science to telepaths with makes this super-powered.
And the most important thing is that unless you're stacking two OP strats together (Clone Armies + Civvy Spam) for the absurd "finish your ascension by 2213" starter, you only get this bonus around the midgame, unless you rush unity. And if you rush unity, you're quickly losing the value from telepath's intrinsic resource output (again, discounting the Whisperer Covenant) so it's only the spamable +50% Output building.
Which is all to say that yes this is strong and yes it's the strongest Ascension, but the video title, the thread, everything pointing the finger at Telepaths is misleading. The real power is having extreme early game pop growth coupled with the way civilian-based economy was working (prior to the C.G. hotfix). Which was important in 4.0 where Pops grow pops a lot more than planets grow pops.
The fundamental problem is that they ever made Telepaths a job swap at all. +10% output per 100 jobs is extremely strong, and it was reined in by only allowing 2 telepaths per planet before. It should never have been made able to scale.
The telepath example breaks the first rule, but the Dictatorial Cybervision breaks both.
You could do the same thing, but slightly slower, by building labs. Though the combo with Clone Army is quite good: they normally struggle to build enough jobs, and it removes that pressure.
Or, rather:
- Job output/efficiency bonuses this strong should not come from spammable jobs: you should only be able to get a finite number of them
- Notably, though, weaker versions are fine, like Biotrophies. They're spammable, but limited by the number of special (organic) pops you have, and have relatively low numbers (1% per 100 pops, now). They're powerful, but not broken.
- Job efficiency bonuses cannot (!!!!!!) affect the same strata as gives them, or else they explode to infinity when the bonus is over 100%, and get massive multipliers over their expected effect even when they don't
The telepath example breaks the first rule, but the Dictatorial Cybervision breaks both.
- For telepaths.... they could just kill the job swap. Keep Telepaths as a special job that have a finite number. Alternatively, they could make them much weaker, but I doubt Psionic players really want to spam 10 precincts on every planet just to get the same bonus they got before.
- For Dictatorial Cybervision... make it an output buff. Then it's just the same as it was before, and doesn't explode to infinity. It's ok (but strong) when spammable because the value per enforcer is 1/4 that of Telepaths (and less than 1/8 that of Telepaths with a Divine Sovereign)
The Denizens stage of this exploit is just a decent early start and a good transition. It helps them get it done in only 10 years by skipping the stage where you build a bunch of labs or cities and replacing it with a stage where you build a bunch of academies (which then swap to precincts giving telepaths when you ditch Civil Education to spam more telepaths).
You could do the same thing, but slightly slower, by building labs. Though the combo with Clone Army is quite good: they normally struggle to build enough jobs, and it removes that pressure.
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My point is that a strong early start is worth a lot more than something completely OP in the late game. The thread title says "Psionic Telepaths Spam build, Destroys the game by year 10", but without stacking two seperate and highly synergistic strong early game bonuses, you don't even get telepaths until at least 50 years in.
If you did normal gameplay (not using Clone Armies or Overtuned for massive Pop explosion; not using KotTG -which got buffed in 4.0 btw- or pre-nerf Civvy-spam for high efficiency per pop on top of the pop explosion, not using massively buffed Parlimentary for huge unity which again synergieses with early pop explosion) and got to Telepaths by year 50 say (and really it's probably going to be later than that if you're not doing anything for your opener), by the time you get them and then put them to work and then start to get dividends from them, other empires have put their resources into beating the pants off you.
Without a super-fast start (or support from some other strong thing), this would look very strong, but it would take too long to actually pay off compared to other empires just rushing conquest. The biggest thing with this is how it's realtively easy to slot into other combos (like KotTGor pivotting out of Civvy Spam - since you're already running a copworld build).
How do you get +560% Job effect? If you only put telepaths on your government districts, you get 220% around 2250 (really probably later); if you convert your city specialisation for more slots, you get up to 520% but only get that bonus on worker or trader jobs (around the same time). If you wait until Divine Sovereign, you get 440% and you're looking at waiting until around 2300.
Seriously - the most important thing isn't how strong a build can get - it's how strong a build can get by a given year; and Telepaths can't do much by themselves; Clone Armies coupled with Civvy-Economy is doing a pretty much all the heavy lifting here.
Check the 2nd video in this thread. He actually got to over 1000%.
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didn't it say some of the infinite job efficiency bug are getting fixed in the last patch note
could take a while for most of them to be fixed
could take a while for most of them to be fixed
With Divine Sovereign, Fallen Empire buildings and districts which aren't worth buffing, enabling him to get infinite Food, Minerals, Energy, Trade and Unity. Every resource except the ones which matter, too late for it to matter unless you do something else busted to get there before War-o'clock.
I'll say it again - without other, more important parts to the strategy, it takes too long to come online and without the Whisper Covenant the payoff isn't really all that impressive. (Edit: to be considered 'completely gamebreaking')
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's not strong, nor even that it's not probably in need of a bit of a nerf (and probably a second one to the Whisperer Covenant specifically) - what I am saying is that 100% of people I have seen use this strat used a more OP strat to get them into the position where it was actually good, including me - I found this a couple of days before the OP posted, while playing KotTG - but critically, the KotTG were more impactful, earlier than the Telepath spam, just like how Clone Armies / Overtuned + Civvy Economy are more impactful earlier in the first video and Clone Army + Parlimentary is in both videos. When Montu says "Clone armies is not the reason this build is completely busted at the moment" he's completely wrong.
The most power thing about the Telepath spam (aside from Whisperer Covenant which makes it produce actually useful resources directly and hence is OP) is how easy it is to slot into so many OP builds.
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