Question about strategic bombing

[jhhowell]

I noticed this in a thread on the main AoD forum:

you could try CORE, strategic bombing is a lot stronger and a viable way of crippling an opponent's economy.

Clearly I'm doing something wrong, since I find heavy bombers to be a way of handicapping myself by wasting large sums of IC. All the more so with 0.61's much improved AI. What I attempt is sending my four US H-Bmb 1940 on a night Industrial Bombardment raid to NW Germany (usually the Cologne-Essen region) in early 1942. If I'm lucky they get through and do about 0.16 units of damage to IC and whatever resource(s) are in the province. Then they get jumped - by wimpy Hungarian or Italian 1935 or '37 model L-Ftr, even - and severely pounded. Initial repair bill is about 82 IC, which even the US economy notices. Granted, planes repair fast, but I'm doing enormously more damage to my economy than to the Germans by attempting to actually use strategic bombing. If I'm unlucky, they get jumped before reaching the target - once over their own airbase just taking off. Not sure what the 20-odd RAF fighters were doing, but apparently air superiority over England was not a priority... And of course daylight missions are suicidal.

So my thought was that the primary use of heavy bombers would be gathering dust until 1945 (if the game ever lasts that long - with the 0.61 AI, maybe it might!), then carry a nuke somewhere. And occasional ancillary uses - my B-17s sank the Bismarck as it tried to limp home after fighting the RN (it was at about 5% strength at the time, and the strat bombers were the only planes I had in range at the time).

So what does one do to make strategic bombing effective like Lollibast describes? Wait until '44-'45 when escort fighters should become possible? If I understand the escort fighter techs, the '42 bomber doctrine Dedicated Bomber Protection will unlock the Fighter Escort Doctrine. Then you've got three aircraft techs to research (in sequence!) before you have real escort fighters that don't gimp the range of the bomber units. Seems unlikely that this approach would let bombers be effective before very late '44, more likely '45... Which is fairly historical for daylight bombing, but night bombing should be a viable approach earlier, and I'm finding that it isn't.

I could bomb places like Paris and Brussels with cover from my own fighters, but there's not much IC there, and the Allies doing strategic bombing on friendly occupied civilian populations is frankly inconceivable.

 

[Titan79]

I could bomb places like Paris and Brussels with cover from my own fighters, but there's not much IC there, and the Allies doing strategic bombing on friendly occupied civilian populations is frankly inconceivable.

Hmm... do you mean in game or in RL?

For, if it's the latter, then there is plenty of examples (Caen being probably the best).

 

[unmerged(526990)]

Hmm... do you mean in game or in RL?

For, if it's the latter, then there is plenty of examples (Caen being probably the best).

Surely the game is meant to simulate real life? So the same tactics should work for both. I agree that heavy bombing (as the UK against Germany) is hard initially. Modern bombers and defensive armaments/escorts help of course, as does making sure you have all the latest doctrines. After that, it's tactics, which I think should mirror reality as much as possible:

- send your ordinary fighters out to their maximum range to engage any interceptors that they can
- bomb their airbases during the day, especially when their wings are on the ground, if possible
- saturation bomb by night, using multiple wings of multiple groups - safety in numbers, in other words

 

[jhhowell]

Surely the game is meant to simulate real life? So the same tactics should work for both. I agree that heavy bombing (as the UK against Germany) is hard initially. Modern bombers and defensive armaments/escorts help of course, as does making sure you have all the latest doctrines. After that, it's tactics, which I think should mirror reality as much as possible:

- send your ordinary fighters out to their maximum range to engage any interceptors that they can
- bomb their airbases during the day, especially when their wings are on the ground, if possible
- saturation bomb by night, using multiple wings of multiple groups - safety in numbers, in other words

Sounds like "don't bomb farther than Belgium or Normandy" then, at least until much later in the war... And there's little worth bombing there until it's time to invade. Screwing around with enemy airfields sounds like a plan though.

Not sure how a couple more doctrine techs would make any difference (I have the '40 doctrines, not the '42s yet - land and naval doctrines, and new aircraft and artillery/AT models have priority). The long and expensive escort fighter techs probably would, but that's a *lot* of time and tech slots to spend... And I have no idea how the UK are supposed to work, since it's not clear they can ever get escort fighters (AI UK chose the middle balanced doctrine path, which doesn't get Dedicated Bomber Protection).

Titan79, what I was getting at is that mass casualty raids (Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, etc.) were not targeted on friendly-but-occupied cities. Firebombing Paris and killing many tens of thousands of French civilians per raid is just not plausible. Which is how I interpret the game's "Strategic Bombardment" mission, anyway. Maybe it's supposed to represent more targeted raids on specific factories etc., which you're right the Allies did do in France. Anyway that's rather tangential to the point, one won't "cripple the opponent's economy" as in Lollibast's quote by hitting provinces with 1-3 IC in them.

 

[Titan79]

Sounds like "don't bomb farther than Belgium or Normandy" then, at least until much later in the war... And there's little worth bombing there until it's time to invade. Screwing around with enemy airfields sounds like a plan though.

Not sure how a couple more doctrine techs would make any difference (I have the '40 doctrines, not the '42s yet - land and naval doctrines, and new aircraft and artillery/AT models have priority). The long and expensive escort fighter techs probably would, but that's a *lot* of time and tech slots to spend... And I have no idea how the UK are supposed to work, since it's not clear they can ever get escort fighters (AI UK chose the middle balanced doctrine path, which doesn't get Dedicated Bomber Protection).

Titan79, what I was getting at is that mass casualty raids (Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, etc.) were not targeted on friendly-but-occupied cities. Firebombing Paris and killing many tens of thousands of French civilians per raid is just not plausible. Which is how I interpret the game's "Strategic Bombardment" mission, anyway.

Well, I was thinking about Caen in particular as it is a clear case of carpet bombing on a city where "friendly population" was living. Here's a small excerpt from an interview Sir Anthony Beevor gave about one of his books, D-Day: The Battle for Normandy:

«When asked in the BBC History magazine whether the Allies could have reasonably reduced civilian deaths in Caen during the bombing of the town, Beevor replies: "Yes, I'm afraid they could. The British bombing of Caen beginning on D-Day in particular was stupid, counter-productive and above all very close to a war crime.

"There was an assumption, I think, that Caen must have been evacuated beforehand. That was wishful thinking on the part of the British. There were more than 2,000 casualties there on the first two days and in a way it was miraculous that more people weren't killed when you think of the bombing and the shelling which carried on for days afterwards."»

For the record, the Allied carpet bombing of Caen destroyed about 70% of the city.

 

[lollibast]

Bomber and escort models and doctrines are very important as the make strat (and industrial) bombing a LOT stronger. Admittedly, doing 0,16 IC wont cripple an enemy but with the right techs you can do 1 IC damage per run with a 4-HBomberwing. Do that for some weeks and you will notice the impact. Not only does you oppon ent have less IC available but he will have to divert quite a lot of his production to repair provinces.
Key to strategic warfare is air superioirty. You cant expect to succeed when your bombers keep getting intercepted. Just as in real life, strat bombing had an impact when Germany couldnt intercept the enemy bombers.
And if you do get intercepted, bear in mind that your opponent has to repair his fighters too.
So I suggest you try to achieve air superioirity first, by sending your own fighters as far as they can reach and if you think the times right, strike hard with your hbomber-esc wings. One wing wont do much, but 3 or 4 4-bomber wings will get the job done. The Cologne region is a good start, it's close and heavily industrialized, when those provinces are down to 0 IC you can go for Berlin or some other high IC provinces like Stuttgart and Dresden.
Airfield raiding should be done with fighters to get the upper hand dealing with the planes stationed. Sending medium bombers against airfields where fighters are stationed will hurt you more than them.

Hope this helps and dont hesitate to ask if you have any doubts

 

[Epaminondas]

I'll pick up on cyber's point about the game being meant to simulate real life and suggest that that's exactly what it's doing in your games jh.

Allied strategic bombing of Germany delivered very little in the way of strategic results until well into 1943 and didn't become really punishing until after 'big week' in early 1944. Until then significant results were only achieved irregularly and their impact was for the most part temporary with German industry recovering more quickly than lost aircraft and aircrew could be replaced - just as is happening with you. On some accounts the only justifications for its continuance past 1942, when bomber losses really started escalating, was that it was the only means the Western Allies had at the time for 'carrying the war' to Germany and because to halt it would have been to acknowledge that the premise on which Bomber Command and the US strategic bombing force was based was faulty. More than once it came close to being abandoned.

So, if it's 'reality' you're after, you're just going to have to take your lumps until the Mustangs and Thunderbolts start arriving, or confine yourself to soft targets within range of your own fighters. You won't cripple the German economy that way, but by consistently knocking down the IC and Infra in half a dozen or more of these you should be able to bleed enough German IC into repairs and fighter replacements to begin making a difference.

Edit: Whoops, sort of redundant now.

 

[unmerged(526990)]

Sounds like "don't bomb farther than Belgium or Normandy" then, at least until much later in the war... And there's little worth bombing there until it's time to invade. Screwing around with enemy airfields sounds like a plan though.

No, I wasn't suggesting only bombing as far as you can send fighter escorts! Just to send the fighters for as far as you can. I find especially (and maybe this is completely coincidence) that my bombers often get jumped on the way out, and that's where plain fighter wings operating from the UK can serve to protect them.

I understand your general frustration though. In my current game as the UK (mid-'41), I have six wings of heavies sitting on the ground doing nothing. Now and then I get tempted to send them on a mission, and always regret it...

 

[jhhowell]

I'll pick up on cyber's point about the game being meant to simulate real life and suggest that that's exactly what it's doing in your games jh.

That's why I've been trying night bombing, figuring that way I wouldn't take much damage while also not doing very much to the target. So getting massacred as if it were daylight while doing about as much bombing damage as expected is what's really frustrating.

Anyway, seems to be a moot point for a while. Finally freed up a tech slot to start the slog towards escort fighters, and invading Italy doesn't let me spare the attention to try to do anything more with the B-17s in England anyway. Assuming the AI stabilizes the front (and for once they are defending themselves, yay!) it's possible Munich might end up within fighter range, in which case I can try strat bombing again before 1944.

Thanks for the advice, everyone! It's been almost a year since I last played this game, so I'm rather rusty.

 

[Epaminondas]

I can't give you really reliable figures without doing some heavy lifting, jh, but it's broadly accepted that the RAF lost around 7100 bombers in night time operations. The fact seems to be that once the Germans got their night fighter act together attacking by night wasn't a whole lot safer than attacking in daylight.