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unmerged(2360)

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Mar 27, 2001
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Hej, I am on my third IGC as Hungary and I have some problems with ragusa, after researching I have the following historical info and events to provide.

Info:
Ragusa has twice been annexed by venice in my campaigns but 'her diplomacy, however, encouraged compromise in her relations, first with Byzantium and Venice, then with the Kingodom of Croatia and Hungary, and finally, with the Turkish Empire. But the Republic of Dubrovnik (Ragusa) always managed to maintain her freedom, 'dearer than gold' to her.' She had high doplomatic relations with hungary and turkey. Ragusa was a part of the kingdom of Hungary-Croatia but she remained neutral in the battles with the turks so her vassal status fits well.

Ragusa also gets run over by the turks to frequently as well. 'Under pressure from the aggressive expansionism of the Turks in the Balkans the Dubrovnik Republic accepted Turkish patronage on payment of an annual tribute in 1525 but, in return it obtained a licence for free trade throughout the entire Turkish Empire with payment of only 2% customs. The small state,deprived of its army, brough its defensive system to perfection by skilful diplomacy and wide consular activities. Non-interference in international conflicts and the patronage of great states, particularly of Spain and the Vatican, enabled the Republic to uphold its sovereignty. The only permanent rival and enemy of the state was the Venetian Republic.'

*Accordingly I think that Ragusa should be modified to have low relations with venice initially, and high relations to both turkey and hungary but she should be made unable to annex diplomatically. Ragusa also had strong ties with genoa (Royal Marriage might fit well)

I also think that Ragusa should recieve additional merchants maybe +1 per year since she was a major trading and shipbuilding nation, which had a fairly strong economy with shipbuilding as well over 15% of the spanish armada was composed of Ragusian galleons known to be the best of the 600-1000 ton class, as well as 70% of the venice fleet but I think that is represented well by the venetian shipyard (though I do think they should cost a slight bit more since most were bought from a foriegn nation not homemade or the ragusan economy should be boosted a bit to reflect this situation). Additonally many of her captains, pilots, mariners, ... where hired by the spanish and portugease in their colonizations of the new world.

'The golden age of the Dubrovnik Republic was in the 16th century when the splendour and power of the Venetian Republic declined. The basis of prosperity was seaborne trade. The Dubrovnik merchant navy in the 16th century reached the highest level of quality and nautical skills with some 180 to 200 vessels in its fleet. Shipbuilding developed with larger ships of different types - galleys, trabacolas and navas - and they sailed on distant and more dangerous journeys along the Mediterranean, Black Sea and the open oceans to the northern ports of England and Germany as well as to India and the Americas.'

*Thereby I think they should be given access to new world spanish and portugease CoT's from their inception on. Additionally I know that settings have been changed to make sure that many nations do not constantly build navies instead of armies, but in this case the navies are warranted. Or perhaps another merchant per year could be added giving the +2, and if she is aquired by a nation such as austria, venice or hungary she should give them a colonial event (perhaps) if aquired before 1700.

Although, her economy did decline in the 1600's as the loss of Ragusan galleons (pirates, worms, storms) in Spanish service contributed to the maritime decline of Ragusa. Many authors and sources indicated that at least 170 ships were lost over a period of time during the age of expansion and discovery. This could mean an event of a loss of one of those additional merchants per year sometime in the 1600's

*Also, I do not presume to cast disparigments on Mr. Maguinn's increadible work, his new iroquois, aztec, incan, and mogul shields are truely magnificent. I believe, however, that the Ragusan flag was two read beams on a navy blue shield, he has several red beams on a silver shield. Though, this might be a happy medium between the croatian coat of arms (red checkers on a silver field) which also existed at the time.

*A possible explorer for Ragusa would be Nikola Kaboga who had contract with the spanish crown and was well know to columbus. The Spanish crown contracted Ragusa to transport Moors to Africa in 1491. Ragusa, under command of Nikola Kaboga, provided 20 galleons.

Events:
In 1522, the Croatian nobility invited Austrian Archduke Ferdinand of Habsburg to establish garrisons in Croatia to block Turkish invasion routes. In 1526, the Hungarian army was destroyed by the Turks at Mohacs, and King Louis II himself died fleeing the battlefield. To replace Louis, in
1527, Ferdinand of Habsburg was elected King of Hungary and Croatia.

In 1553, Ferdinand appointed an Austrian general to take charge of two border regions in Croatia and Slavonia, with authority over both civil and military affairs in those regions. Ferdinand recruited local refugees to supplement his mercenary garrisons. These recruits came to be primarily Serbs, and thus a belt of Serb-settled territory developed along the border between the Habsburg dominions and the Turkish Empire.

*So I think that fortification events are due in 1522 and 1553.

A general crisis in maritime affairs at the Mediterranean in the 17th century struck the Dubrovnik mercantile trade as well. A disastrous earthquake in 1667 forced the Dubrovnik Republic to fight for its exsistence and the protection of its political sovereignty. In the 18th century Dubrovnik found an opportunity for economic revival in the seaborne trade under a neutral flag until the arrival of Napoleon and the fall of the Dubrovnik Republic in 1808.

*In 1667 there should be a loss of population event and a severly loss of stability and confidence.

*loss of one of the bonus merchants in the 1600's as stated in the info stuff above

Variant names for Ragusa (I am not sure what is which language)
RAGUSA-RAGUSAN AS USED IN THE WEST

The Republic of Dubrovnik was known in the Middle Ages as the Republic of Ragusa. For the purpose of this study we will use Ragusa and Ragusan. Variations of Ragusa and Ragusan Included:

Rhagusi, Rhagusei, Arragosie, Raugia, Aragucesas, Aragose, Ragouze, Arragowze, Aragoso, Aragosee, Arause, Rogaoso, Aragujo, Araguz, Ragoza, Aranguren, Ragusee, Argosine, Rauseo, Ragusien, Arragosy, Ragason, Aragus, Ragus, Araguses, Ragusies, Ragusei, Aragosia, Arragouse, Sarragouse, Argosy, Argose, Argosie, Aragouse, Arguze, Ragusye, Arragouese, Ragozine, Rausa.

Republic of Ragusa- http://www.croatia.net/html/history.html
 
Thanks, Ullen. From this I see, You´re one of the numerous fans of little Ragusa. :) Some of the info is indeed implementable, though not all can be done (to long to explain in detail, but trust me). E.g. I cannot prevent annexion of Ragusa. But if You want to achieve this, there´s an effective method: Just make it playable. Some things - like a good supply with merchants - are already implemented. They should have the same amount of merchants as Venice, I think. I´d like to implement that explorer and will look up the relations to Genua. The relations to Venice shouldn´t be too bad (to prevent war and annexation).

Cheers, Hartmann
 
Yes, these are good.

Most of this we covered before but it's good to hear some things emphasized and with much greater detail.

I think the problem is the conquering of Ragusa. And, making it richer will make it more of a target I suspect. I also think:

a. the Ragusa fleet should stay the same size as commercial fleets are not represented in the game. This role goes to merchants.

b. Ragusa should have a very hard time getting merchants into Venice as it erected severe barriers to competitors. In fact, the repeated Austrian monopoly I witness in the Venice COT is very far from realistic. I think the Venetian trade tech should be higher to reflect their control.

c. I wouldn't give Ragusa access to other COTs other than Isfahan and Alexandria at the start. I think that doing so would greatly unbalance the game and make it depart from reality as those other COTs were not yet discovered by the inevitable host (colonial) nations as of 1492.
 
Agreed to #a (of course I still vividly remember our earlier discussions about the wharf etc. :) ) and to #c (giving them access to cots not yet there is one thing I couldn´t do anyway). #b is a problem as the only way of preventing Ragusan merchants in Venice would be either to lower Ragusan level or rais Venetian. Venetian level at the start is already quite good, and Ragusan shouldn´t lag much behind....

Hartmann
 
Actually I am a fan of Hungary (its as fun as sveriga). Feeling like the last line of defense against the turks is pretty cool and it just seems that ragusa is the week link, i hate it when the venetians annex it right from under me or when the turks just take it.

wouldn't a way not to dip annex it be for it to refuse military alliances (i am not sure if this is possible). Though if is annexable it think it should supply colonists then but not before hand (it wasn't geared to being a colonial national, but with a larger country to feed population who knows)

I also have give congrats to a great igc, hungary is very difficult what with transylvania rebelling whenever the economy gets bad. My last attempt ended up with serbia and transylvania revolting from me and wallachia (as a turkish allie) taking half my remaining territory whilst my moldovian allies just watched in fear(i wish not to speak of the austrian betrayl). Not to mention my the revolt overthrew my government and became protestant in 1565 which was strange because i had no protestant territory left at this point for it all became transylvania

croatia might also be a good revolter just to make things even more difficult (thats if it is not already?).

Once again thanks to the igc crew.

Ullen
 
I've not gotten far along on version 1.8 yet to see all that happen in Hungary. Hmmm.. I suspect I will have to take up the Ragusan Regency again as at least a spectator. ;)


Meantime, if you can believe it... despite all the bells and whistles of 1.08 (really the best full-featured IGC yet - thumbs UP), I am playing the Iroqois. Yeah. Nothing has happened until 1560 or so and now the English declared war on me and I have no way of 'talking' to them diplomatically. I am really handicapped as it is all terra incognita to me and I have no conquistadors (of course.. i suppose). But I did get 3 colonists and they all 'stuck' and so the Iroqois have three more colonies in NA. My merchants sit in their stalls here at home bc I can't find a single COT... bother this is not at all how mama said it should be!
 
Another Hungarian player Ullen? I'm using them at the moment (Not IGC though, just 1.08). Turks have it really bad, they've been pushed out of Europe and I have access to the sea by getting Kosovo, Bulgaria, Bosnia, Macedonia and mainland Greece :). I made it on to the boot of italy in Naples in a well co-ordinated sea landing. I hate Spain. They're winning by 1000 VPs. I needed to do SOMETHING to reduce their VPs. Even if I am on the other side of the continent.
 
I wish i had your luck there j_keats, the turks keep rushing me the second my alliances end. My current campaign (#3) is going well. I have taken two territories from austria and moldovia took 1. I am almost ready to annex my vassel bohemia, and i believe that either brandenburg or thurigen will be by newest vassel. But i just cannot keep the upper hand agaist the turks, and my allies will settle for peace as soon as the get one territory and leave me hanging agaist a moslem onslaught. but my have slowly taken bosnia, serbia and wallachia this time round. The economy is slowly building to a boom and don't ask me how but during a turkish invasion my all of hungary rebelled and reformed as protestant (thats twice this has happened in two igc's.

About spain, just turn missions off, I don't know if it is too late but thats the best way to keep them down. Yet you must realize that you have accomplished great things for a nation that was all but completely overrun before those austrians assumed rule in the 1560s(?)
 
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