Ranting about interface

[Buladelu]

Latest Paradox games have much better interface than earlier ones. But it still has some annoying problems. I look at Sengoku screens and already see Paradox trying to repeat same mistakes. Some of my ranting is subjective, but still please do consider following:

1) Icons. They are too complex. You can't use their smaller versions without loosing some details. Or do you still want to use text everywhere like in Rome? In character table ( http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34690&d=1302873244 ) I see two swords - it's obviously a martial, then a scroll - ok, diplomacy, then... Again sword? That's just torture for my subconscious. Those icons are pretty but you have to focus to recognize it and it's unnecessary work for a brain.

2) In table essential states are very close to others. Martial/Diplomacy/Finesse should be seen first, maybe a larger font or at least obvious border between character stats and other values.

3) Same for radiobuttons. Player eye won't see them as several groups, it's a line of buttons.

4) I am a programmer. So I understand why you always use messages like "Martial: +1.00". But then again, it's no good when you are player. Why do you write 1.00? Is there any event when you can get 1.12? Even 1.5? It happens with some other values but why should you show me bunch of unnecessary digits? See modern RPG interfaces and you'd usually see
+1 Martial
+1 Diplomacy

That way eye instantly catches +1, then sees that it's for martial and diplomacy. In current format you always get wall of text which is hard to read (by the way, color coding helps, thanks). But it would be logical if you'd get +1 (small and recognizable icon for martial) instead of text which we have to read and process.

5) There are some other issues but they are too obvious and probably because of alpha. F.e. family column is half-empty, I guess there will be some additional info - if no, at least move name to the right of symbol or canter symbol. I guess there will be titles under a name so it's OK.

Please, Paradox. We love complex and overwhelming games but that doesn't mean we should sink in interfaces that are OK for SQL management studious.

 

[Kallocain]

Very good points. Some are hard to fix, others are because we are in alpha, but some are just very true.

 

[Romtos]

4) I am a programmer. So I understand why you always use messages like "Martial: +1.00". But then again, it's no good when you are player. Why do you write 1.00? Is there any event when you can get 1.12? Even 1.5? It happens with some other values but why should you show me bunch of unnecessary digits? See modern RPG interfaces and you'd usually see
+1 Martial
+1 Diplomacy

That way eye instantly catches +1, then sees that it's for martial and diplomacy. In current format you always get wall of text which is hard to read (by the way, color coding helps, thanks). But it would be logical if you'd get +1 (small and recognizable icon for martial) instead of text which we have to read and process.

This is the only point I definitely don't agree with. I can imagine that for modding purposes one would want to add digits even if the original game doesn't. Also icons for vars instead of written vars is only sensible if the amount of vars is limited. I can see it work for Civ V (as it does), less for PI games. It can become very crowded quickly.

 

[Buladelu]

This is the only point I definitely don't agree with. I can imagine that for modding purposes one would want to add digits even if the original game doesn't. Also icons for vars instead of written vars is only sensible if the amount of vars is limited. I can see it work for Civ V (as it does), less for PI games. It can become very crowded quickly.

It's VERY easy to make it automatical. F.e. when you have +1.53 Martial you show "+1.53 Martial". If you have +1.50 Martial you show "+1.5 Martial" and if you have just +1.00 then - you've guessed it! - you show just "+1 Martial". As for icons - yes, it's a big issue as you'd never have icons for all params in the game, but if I remember correctly Rome has special gold icon and political party icons so most essential params could be shown as icons.

 

[Romtos]

It's VERY easy to make it automatical. F.e. when you have +1.53 Martial you show "+1.53 Martial". If you have +1.50 Martial you show "+1.5 Martial" and if you have just +1.00 then - you've guessed it! - you show just "+1 Martial". As for icons - yes, it's a big issue as you'd never have icons for all params in the game, but if I remember correctly Rome has special gold icon and political party icons so most essential params could be shown as icons.

But inconsistent rounding is just ugly, imho. Just like inconsistency that some parameters are shown as icons, while other as strings.

 

[unmerged(157031)]

I honestly don't have a problem with the needless decimal points after the values in other Paradox games, particularly when the colourcoding is present. I find that colour coding really offsets many other things I'd find irritating without it. Besides, as Romtos said, it's more proffesional to keep the degree at which you round to consistant in every value.

 

[Yrsnö]

Can't help but agree with the two previous posters. Keep it consistent.

 

[semaphore]

Agreed, keeping consistent decimals is better IMHO. OP's got some great ideas in the other points though.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

The majority of p'dox gamers appears to be of the obsessive-compulsive type who insist on consistency rather than simplicity. Are you also the kind of people who also get angry when their bedsheets are not folded EXACTLY the right way?? o

I would prefer values to be shown as simple +1, +2, -1.5 ... I agree with the OP that walls of text are annoying as hell. I play Pdox games to relax, not because I crave the complexity in an otherwise boring life.

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

The majority of p'dox gamers appears to be of the obsessive-compulsive type who insist on consistency rather than simplicity. Are you also the kind of people who also get angry when their bedsheets are not folded EXACTLY the right way?? o

This sort of thing is not helpful to the debate.

 

[Romtos]

The majority of p'dox gamers appears to be of the obsessive-compulsive type who insist on consistency rather than simplicity. Are you also the kind of people who also get angry when their bedsheets are not folded EXACTLY the right way?? o

I would prefer values to be shown as simple +1, +2, -1.5 ... I agree with the OP that walls of text are annoying as hell. I play Pdox games to relax, not because I crave the complexity in an otherwise boring life.

I will skip the insult since RedRalphWiggum already addressed that, so on to the actual argumentation:

I do not agree more consistency implies less simplicity and visa versa. I think consistent rounding and parameter referencing ensures quicker interpretation and less confusion. I'd argue that this adds to simplicity.

 

[Negru Voda]

OP's post is reflective of one of PI's main lingering and recurring crimes against gameplay. We all can look pass it, but still..

 

[semaphore]

I do not agree more consistency implies less simplicity and visa versa. I think consistent rounding and parameter referencing ensures quicker interpretation and less confusion. I'd argue that this adds to simplicity.

This. It's one thing if those attributes can only be in integers - if that's the case I'll agree that decimals don't need to be shown - but if the attributes can have decimals then it's better to have them always so you know when it's 1.0 instead of 1.4 being rounded down.

 

[Buladelu]

This. It's one thing if those attributes can only be in integers - if that's the case I'll agree that decimals don't need to be shown - but if the attributes can have decimals then it's better to have them always so you know when it's 1.0 instead of 1.4 being rounded down.

Once again: there's no way you'll see most values with decimals. And most of them are changed by numbers without decimals. Do you want to keep showing those ".00" just in case that somebody makes a mod were it makes sense? Even then you could still get +1.56 if you have decimals and +1 if no.

Anyway, I'm much more concerned by "technical" language. "Martial: +1.00" looks much worse then "+1 Martial". Say it. Think it. You don't say or think "Martial plus one point zero zero". Computers think that way and we have enough computer thinking in our life (Will you drink coffee or tea? - Yes) You say "plus one martial". Is it easier for game to show info that way? No. Why is it this way? Cause it's default way to show big (big!) data tables, to show you that number is not integer and so that you could find ID field first (in this case "martial") and value field then ("+1.00" in this case). Makes perfect sense when you do a big info spreadshit, but it's a game where you rarely see more than 3 or 4 value changing at once. That's one of the things why my friends call paradox Excel: The Game, laugh at me and don't call me for parties thus ruining my sore life. And then they don't buy those games and buy Civilization.

I also don't like constructions like "One of the following must be true: you are the king of Rock AND it's 1960 or you are the king of metal AND it's 1980", but I can't imagine how do you make it simple without code formatting or brackets.

 

[Blastaz]

OP's post is reflective of one of PI's main lingering and recurring crimes against gameplay. We all can look pass it, but still..

Personally I'm happy that PI keeps its games ever so slightly geeky. No one wants them to do an Obsidian or a Bioware and start trying to appeal to a new, larger, largely imaginary fan base.

 

[Wilsonrtf]

Personally I'm happy that PI keeps its games ever so slightly geeky. No one wants them to do an Obsidian or a Bioware and start trying to appeal to a new, larger, largely imaginary fan base.

True enough. Grognards ought to hate those two for what they`ve done.

 

[Negru Voda]

Personally I'm happy that PI keeps its games ever so slightly geeky. No one wants them to do an Obsidian or a Bioware and start trying to appeal to a new, larger, largely imaginary fan base.

but I'd like them to try to make the interface a little more appealing for me and others who play the games either way, but still think that the interface needs a few improvements

look at the election events in HoI: they would tell you which miniters left and which came, but wouldn't tell you what their stats are. Don't tell me that it's realistic. If we want the games kept geeky, then give me proper info on what "item set" (ministers) I'm dropping in return for the new "item set"

and if nothing else, then maybe it would be nice to make the interface progressively more modable, so that the invisible hand of moding can find the best solution.

 

[semaphore]

Once again: there's no way you'll see most values with decimals. And most of them are changed by numbers without decimals. Do you want to keep showing those ".00" just in case that somebody makes a mod were it makes sense? Even then you could still get +1.56 if you have decimals and +1 if no.

I did say that if the attreibutes only change in integers, then decimals shouldn't be shown, so it I don't know what it is that you are taking offense at. However, how do you know that there's "no way" we'll see those values with decimals? All we have to go on at the moment is pre-alpha screenshots. I'm fairly certain we're all essentially speculating here.