Refugee from Determined Exterminator empire - What's going on?!

[ByLeven]

As title says... I'm a biological empire, and I just received a refugee "robot" from an evil gestalt exterminator empire. This should not be possible, or at least it wasn't possible before. They were always forced "undesirables" regardless of purge policies, now they are forced "full citizen" instead. (wth?)

This empire is supposed to be my play-through's main nemesis. It is scary powerful, has crisis ambition, and has wiped several empires off the map already. They need to be fought and eradicated! And here just one of them shows up in need of "protection" and I am just forced to accept it! Is this normal now, or are my mods acting out?

 

[Calvax]

Gestalts can't be refugees. The only theory I can think of is that some third empire de-hive minded some of the gestalt pops making them individuals, and it's one of them that has flet to your empire due to some sort of purge. I know that the genetics path can de-hive mind organic gestalts but not 100% sure off the top of my head if synth ascended or individualistic machines can.

If it's not possible or you have reasons to think that couldn't have happened then sounds like a mod issue.

 

[ByLeven]

Gestalts can't be refugees. The only theory I can think of is that some third empire de-hive minded some of the gestalt pops making them individuals, and it's one of them that has flet to your empire due to some sort of purge. I know that the genetics path can de-hive mind organic gestalts but not 100% sure off the top of my head if synth ascended or individualistic machines can.

If it's not possible or you have reasons to think that couldn't have happened then sounds like a mod issue.

According to the species tab there is still only one variant of them, and the refugee is coming from one of their own planets, which just got occupied by another empire. I guess this other empire must still be able to purge them.

From my species tab they are set to "full citizenship", and I cannot change it, and given "social welfare" as the only possible living standard. This is also true for the other two machine races in the galaxy.

Unfortunately, loading the save with no mods active changed nothing. Perhaps whatever mod messed up their rights, has made those changes persistently part of the save file?

 

[Cleaving3]

Definitely a spy. Or at least stealing jobs.
-Xenophobe

 

[Archael90]

According to the species tab there is still only one variant of them, and the refugee is coming from one of their own planets, which just got occupied by another empire. I guess this other empire must still be able to purge them.

From my species tab they are set to "full citizenship", and I cannot change it, and given "social welfare" as the only possible living standard. This is also true for the other two machine races in the galaxy.
View attachment 1250890

Unfortunately, loading the save with no mods active changed nothing. Perhaps whatever mod messed up their rights, has made those changes persistently part of the save file?

If you don't want them why You allow AI pops in Your empire?
Another question- about empire that occupy this determined exterminators planet - what kind of empire they are?

 

[Lorenerd11]

From my species tab they are set to "full citizenship", and I cannot change it, and given "social welfare" as the only possible living standard.

That's odd. Decent conditions is locked for you?

 

[Cry_Havok]

As title says... I'm a biological empire, and I just received a refugee "robot" from an evil gestalt exterminator empire. This should not be possible, or at least it wasn't possible before. They were always forced "undesirables" regardless of purge policies, now they are forced "full citizen" instead. (wth?)

This empire is supposed to be my play-through's main nemesis. It is scary powerful, has crisis ambition, and has wiped several empires off the map already. They need to be fought and eradicated! And here just one of them shows up in need of "protection" and I am just forced to accept it! Is this normal now, or are my mods acting out?

The game with machine age has changed that machine pops can exist outside a hive mind (this allows individualist machines to exist). Most spiritualist personalities still genocide machines and slaver personalities enslave them. So what happens is

1: Gestalt Machine pops are transferred to an individualist empire and become individualist pops
2: Game sets rights to these pops which are no longer drones
3: If these pops are going to become genocided or enslaved it creates a burst of refugees
4: if pops are being purged they then check escape chance again on pop decline
5: they go to you because you have citizen rights policy, and there are few other options

As far as not being able to change living standards, either something was just changed (did you recently change default rights?) or if you had mods, it's a mod induced bug.

As for why they are locked to full citizenship, it's explained right on the tooltip. Mechanical pops can either have full citizenship or servitude, based on your AI policy. If you have citizen rights for AI then all robots/machines are citizens

 

[Archael90]

Definitely a spy. Or at least stealing jobs.
-Xenophobe

Let them take jobs, my citizens wants to prosper with utopian abundance.
(Shame they still have job priority)

 

[Nikolai II]

As for why they are locked to full citizenship, it's explained right on the tooltip. Mechanical pops can either have full citizenship or servitude, based on your AI policy. If you have citizen rights for AI then all robots/machines are citizens

It's a bit sad that one can't have different machine pop policies for "revived biologicals" and "tabula rasa AI robots", but that's how it is at this time.

 

[ByLeven]

I'm doing a vanilla speed run, and determined exterminators are still being forced full citizens in the species menu. At this time, I haven't even researched true autonomous AI yet, so I see no reason why I should be able to just automatically "save them" as if by magic...

If you don't want them why You allow AI pops in Your empire?
Another question- about empire that occupy this determined exterminators planet - what kind of empire they are?

I allow AI pops because I'm partially a materialistic empire with my own robotic population and aspirations. The empire that just occupied their planet (in the modded game) is a ruthless corporation with fanatic materialistic ethics. Their robots may be servants though, not sure. In the past, we could have liberal AI policies, but still be forced to purge exterminators - Because they used to be irredeemable - And that's how I like them. Sad to see that have changed. A robot isn't just a robot, in my view.

That's odd. Decent conditions is locked for you?

Yup, but only for machine species. The other legal options - decent, academic, utopian etc., aren't even listed. 'Servitude' and 'Non existent' are greyed out, because those are banned. For mechanical and everybody else, all the options (legal or otherwise) are listed as normal.

The game with machine age has changed that machine pops can exist outside a hive mind (this allows individualist machines to exist). Most spiritualist personalities still genocide machines and slaver personalities enslave them. So what happens is

1: Gestalt Machine pops are transferred to an individualist empire and become individualist pops
2: Game sets rights to these pops which are no longer drones
3: If these pops are going to become genocided or enslaved it creates a burst of refugees
4: if pops are being purged they then check escape chance again on pop decline
5: they go to you because you have citizen rights policy, and there are few other options

As far as not being able to change living standards, either something was just changed (did you recently change default rights?) or if you had mods, it's a mod induced bug.

As for why they are locked to full citizenship, it's explained right on the tooltip. Mechanical pops can either have full citizenship or servitude, based on your AI policy. If you have citizen rights for AI then all robots/machines are citizens

I don't own 'Machine Age' yet, but I suppose I am subject to its accompanying patch - So much have changed since I last played. I saw the tooltip, but in the past, those laws did not apply to 'exterminators', who just couldn't be saved no matter what. In my vanilla playthrough today, I don't even have advanced AI yet. I haven't received any refugees from them yet, but their species rights are just as messed up as before. They should have no rights, but instead they are given the best rights out of anybody. And I can't change it without harming my own.

In my modded game, the empire who invaded them are fanatic materialist. It doesn't make sense to me that they can purge them, while I cannot. Their own robots may be treated as servants though, but I don't want that.

It's a bit sad that one can't have different machine pop policies for "revived biologicals" and "tabula rasa AI robots", but that's how it is at this time.

I agree. If this is how it just is now, then that is not a change for the better. This machine race isn't even that. They are still basic gestalt, untampered with (as far as I can tell). They shouldn't be able to just "change their ways" or be forgiven so easily. I guess I would be fine with the possibility of potentially "saving them", if that was a task the player (or other empire) wanted to pursuit - But that should really require advanced tech (and perhaps also multiple quests), and truly be a choice for the player. Shouldn't just happen automatically.

 

[Cry_Havok]

I'm doing a vanilla speed run, and determined exterminators are still being forced full citizens in the species menu. At this time, I haven't even researched true autonomous AI yet, so I see no reason why I should be able to just automatically "save them" as if by magic...


I allow AI pops because I'm partially a materialistic empire with my own robotic population and aspirations. The empire that just occupied their planet (in the modded game) is a ruthless corporation with fanatic materialistic ethics. Their robots may be servants though, not sure. In the past, we could have liberal AI policies, but still be forced to purge exterminators - Because they used to be irredeemable - And that's how I like them. Sad to see that have changed. A robot isn't just a robot, in my view.


Yup, but only for machine species. The other legal options - decent, academic, utopian etc., aren't even listed. 'Servitude' and 'Non existent' are greyed out, because those are banned. For mechanical and everybody else, all the options (legal or otherwise) are listed as normal.


I don't own 'Machine Age' yet, but I suppose I am subject to its accompanying patch - So much have changed since I last played. I saw the tooltip, but in the past, those laws did not apply to 'exterminators', who just couldn't be saved no matter what. In my vanilla playthrough today, I don't even have advanced AI yet. I haven't received any refugees from them yet, but their species rights are just as messed up as before. They should have no rights, but instead they are given the best rights out of anybody. And I can't change it without harming my own.

In my modded game, the empire who invaded them are fanatic materialist. It doesn't make sense to me that they can purge them, while I cannot. Their own robots may be treated as servants though, but I don't want that.


I agree. If this is how it just is now, then that is not a change for the better. This machine race isn't even that. They are still basic gestalt, untampered with (as far as I can tell). They shouldn't be able to just "change their ways" or be forgiven so easily. I guess I would be fine with the possibility of potentially "saving them", if that was a task the player (or other empire) wanted to pursuit - But that should really require advanced tech (and perhaps also multiple quests), and truly be a choice for the player. Shouldn't just happen automatically.

So, again, I think living standards are bugged from mods. But in the past the reason Gestalt pops got purged was not because they were "irredeemable", it's because machine type pops could only exist in machine empires.

Ruthless Capitalist is a robot exploiter personality, so they are capturing the machines and forcing servitude, which because they are machines are capable of independent thought, and fleeing.

You might not have figured out how to build hyper advanced thinking AI yourself, but now that you have one present and the designs you can make more. You just can't make your own in house AI until you figure out your own design. Think of it also like unplugging cyborgs from an Assimilator, they are no longer subsumed by the central computer, but now individuals. These escaping murderbots are now running on local software and ergo make individual decisions

 

[Kataclyszm]

This is a bug introduced with Machine Age. Machine-gestalt robots will act like individualists and try to escape purging, become individualists when they arrive in a receiving empire.

Report it as a bug, I guess. They'll add it to the pile and review it some time before the heat-death of the universe.

 

[Archael90]

In the past, we could have liberal AI policies, but still be forced to purge exterminators - Because they used to be irredeemable

Not really. We purged DE because there was no way for them to live outside machine intelligence. Now they can as regular robots.

 

[Archael90]

This is a bug introduced with Machine Age. Machine-gestalt robots will act like individualists and try to escape purging, become individualists when they arrive in a receiving empire.

Report it as a bug, I guess. They'll add it to the pile and review it some time before the heat-death of the universe.

Im pretty sure its not a bug.
Capitalists disconnected those robots from MI and thus gives them individuality. Robots didnt wanted to be slaves or being purged, so they fled.

 

[ByLeven]

Ruthless Capitalist is a robot exploiter personality, so they are capturing the machines and forcing servitude, which because they are machines are capable of independent thought, and fleeing.

You might not have figured out how to build hyper advanced thinking AI yourself, but now that you have one present and the designs you can make more. You just can't make your own in house AI until you figure out your own design. Think of it also like unplugging cyborgs from an Assimilator, they are no longer subsumed by the central computer, but now individuals. These escaping murderbots are now running on local software and ergo make individual decisions

Im pretty sure its not a bug.
Capitalists disconnected those robots from MI and thus gives them individuality. Robots didnt wanted to be slaves or being purged, so they fled.

Appreciate the insight on the new mechanic - I think I can get onboard with the rationale. I just hope it's not something that happens automatically (no matter what), but rather was allowed to happen now simply because the Ruthless Corp was advanced enough to change them. If the latter is the case, then it's a really cool mechanic actually. But if there is no requirements (other than ethics) to change them, then I'm still not happy with it. In either case, it is a good explanation for what happened though.

So, again, I think living standards are bugged from mods.

That still leaves this issue though, which is also present in the vanilla playthrough I started yesterday (no mods). 'Social welfare', 'servitude' and 'non existent' are still the only living standards available. As for citizenship, only 'Full citizenship' or 'Servitude' are the options. 'Resident', is not available/listed. So is this a bug? How is it for you guys?

If only I could give them 'resident' status, I could avoid the refugee situation by accepting citizen refugees only. (I understand from a gameplay point of view I should happily take them, but from a roleplay point of view it is completely unacceptable (for my population oc... not me personally )

These are my insanely stripped down options for machines, in vanilla:

I will continue my vanilla game tonight and try to conquer one of their planets, to see what happens to them. I, in my view, should not yet have tech advanced enough to change them. Haven't even researched drones.

 

[ByLeven]

Okay. So I just invaded one of their worlds (in vanilla), and they are not being purged, but immediately made full citizen with better living conditions than anybody else. There is no process to change them, it happens instantly. I have not researched true AI yet.

I think this is very unrealistic. Gestalt machines should not have an innate ability to gain free will imho. If they could, they would splinter and not be gestalt to begin with. They should be 100% dependent on the shared consensus that built them. When the connection is severed, they should be completely useless and vulnerable. This breaks all the immersion and fun (with this sort of enemy) for me... They used to be the coolest adversary

 

[Archael90]

Okay. So I just invaded one of their worlds (in vanilla), and they are not being purged, but immediately made full citizen with better living conditions than anybody else. There is no process to change them, it happens instantly. I have not researched true AI yet.

I think this is very unrealistic. Gestalt machines should not have an innate ability to gain free will imho. If they could, they would splinter and not be gestalt to begin with. They should be 100% dependent on the shared consensus that built them. When the connection is severed, they should be completely useless and vulnerable. This breaks all the immersion and fun (with this sort of enemy) for me... They used to be the coolest adversary

Game is not advance enough to take into consideration empire those robots comes from (unfortunately). Tho outside MI they should be just regular robots. If You have ability to make robots but not sentient machines, they should not become like full AI but as droids max. Do they take ruler, or researcher jobs?

 

[ByLeven]

Game is not advance enough to take into consideration empire those robots comes from (unfortunately). Tho outside MI they should be just regular robots. If You have ability to make robots but not sentient machines, they should not become like full AI but as droids max. Do they take ruler, or researcher jobs?

I disagree. This isn't really about which particular empire they are from, it's about the what kind of species they are, and their traits - and the game definitively is advanced enough to distinguish between those. It just doesn't do it well for machines, for whatever reason...

Had to check, but they take all jobs:

And apparently, there's a zero percent approval rating for now having to do their jobs consciously

Did a little snoop on them via console, and what I'm experiencing shouldn't even be happening according to the tooltip:

All I want/expected really, is for them to remain gestalt after conquest (like before). Unless the conqueror has the ability and/or will to change them, I wouldn't mind that option - But it should be a choice. Moreover, other machines races who are not gestalt, but independently sentient, should have a complete set of rights options, just like any other sentient species.

 

[Archael90]

Did a little snoop on them via console, and what I'm experiencing shouldn't even be happening according to the tooltip:

Yes, being gestalts means they should not survive outside gestalt influence. But once they are disconnected from gestalt mind, they become individualist robots. They act like regular, living pops, exactly how bio pops acts.
I think it should depends on their origin and/or tech level of liberator empire

 

[ByLeven]

Yes, being gestalts means they should not survive outside gestalt influence. But once they are disconnected from gestalt mind, they become individualist robots. They act like regular, living pops, exactly how bio pops acts.
I think it should depends on their origin and/or tech level of liberator empire

I understand that this is how the game just "works" now, that (unfortunately) it's not a bug. I'm just saying that I don't like it, and that it didn't have to be this way (and imo shouldn't - wish it was a bug).

That they instantly become individualist robots when "disconnected" is a choice the devs have made, when they could just as easily have decided to let them remain gestalt - Differentiating machines, the same way they differentiate individualist and gestalt biologicals. Realistically speaking, these units were never designed for independent thought by the gestalt who made them, so how can they just innately have it? I like the introduction of individualistic machines to the game, but I dislike that it came at the expense of the gestalt. I'm all for the option to turn gestalt machines into individuals via process, but I think that the decision do so should be left to the conqueror (for the sake of more interesting game experiences) - and it should require research to be able to do so.

I also maintain, due to the severely limited rights options, individualist machines do not behave exactly like bio pops. A choice between servitude and full citizenship, is not good enough. Where is resident? Where are all the living conditions? I can purge bios by displacement if I want to (I don't want to, but that's besides the point), but I can't do that to machines if AI is allowed. Well, bios are also allowed, so... The current system just feels half-assed...