Regarding China.

[gav1230]

Obviously it's EUROPA universalis so the main focus will be on europe but I'm hoping that China and the surrounding countries will be represented a little better. One thing that really annoyed me was how imperial dynasties were represented. I don't understand why the Ming dynasty would still have cores on mainland china years after it's been destroyed, where Ming nationalists would rise and restore the Ming state under a completely different dynasty. I was thinking that maybe the devs could just call it China and use the CK2 system for islamic countries where the ruling dynasty would be the name of the country.

 

[vyshan]

That is a good idea.

One thing that could be modeled is the Tributary System that china had with its surrounding countries which should have some effect IMO.

 

[Ashantai]

I agree they should either call it China or use the dynasty name.

 

[Jia Xu]

China is poorly represented in all PI games, except for maybe HOI3, I guess. Neither EU or Victoria are really equipped to deal with the China's dynastic changes. Ideally, when Ming is destroyed, then we shouldn't hear from it again. With very few exceptions, Chinese dynasties do not return from the dead. Once it's accepted that the Mandate of Heaven has legitimately been taken from a dynasty, the desire to restore that dynasty to power quickly evaporates. What I would like to see in China is perhaps a special little mechanic that isn't too complicated. Aside from Ming, perhaps there could be a few fictional Chinese tags (aside from the historical Qing, of course) and if the Ming are overthrown, the invading country gets a pop up offering to choose one of the new dynasty tags to replace Ming. Things could also flow better in the region with the flag / name changing system from Victoria 2 which could save some tag space. Using that system, Manchuria could just become Qing by switching to the Celestial Empire government type or whatever.

 

[Closet Skeleton]

It was quite common for there to be lots of Chinese break away states. My personal system would be something like:

On a TAG level, there are lots of Chinese states for each region, possibly mapping up to the sub-states in A House Divided (I know those are controversial but I don't know much about regions of China).

These states would all use the Sword of Islam system of being named after their dynasty. So Ming wouldn't be 'China', it would just be a chinese state with its dynasty name over-riding that completely. If Ming got conquered, that state could rebel through its cores but would have a new name from its randomly chosen dynasty rather than a name based off its TAG.

The most powerful Chinese state would gain 'the mandate of heaven' making them the 'legitimate China' even if no country actually has 'china' as the TAG. The Mandate of Heaven would allow you to draw tribute from surrounding states and give you massive stability bonuses but could be lost to another state like Manchu. This would possibly be more like the 'Shogun' system than the 'Mandate of Heaven' in Divine Wind terms.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

Regarding rebels trying to restore the Ming being "impossible":

Not true, no one here heard of the Heaven and Earth Societies? Their motto was "Overthrow the Qing, Restore the Ming" or "Fanqing Fuming".

Most of the Rebellious organisations in China during the Qing were part of the Heaven and Earth Society, until about the Taiping Rebellion in the 1840s-1850s. Most rebels during the early Qing Dynasty wanted to restore the Ming.

Interestingly, modern day Triads almost all directly descend from the Heaven and Earth Society, and organisations similiar to it.

 

[flame7926]

Regarding rebels trying to restore the Ming being "impossible":

Not true, no one here heard of the Heaven and Earth Societies? Their motto was "Overthrow the Qing, Restore the Ming" or "Fanqing Fuming".

Most of the Rebellious organisations in China during the Qing were part of the Heaven and Earth Society, until about the Taiping Rebellion in the 1840s-1850s. Most rebels during the early Qing Dynasty wanted to restore the Ming.

Interestingly, modern day Triads almost all directly descend from the Heaven and Earth Society, and organisations similiar to it.

But they mostly just wanted Han rule, overthrow the Manchurians, the source of that wasn't terribly important.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

But they mostly just wanted Han rule, overthrow the Manchurians, the source of that wasn't terribly important.

Yes, but the route they were taking was to re-establish the Ming Dynasty. The cores should stay. Ming loyalists were also an issue after the Manchu conquest.

Rebels only really abandoned the Ming standard after the Taiping Rebellion, which happened 50 years after the game's timeframe (though it would be interesting if the game provided the possibility to happen earlier...)

 

[colinljx]

You people are missing one very important thing while arguing - the crappy "faction" from DW may stay in the same or a similar form in EU4.

As for the country name, a Chinese dynasty like Ming/Qin/Qing/Wu is not the rulers' family name, so I don't have a problem with Ming representing China.

 

[Sofistication]

It's not the ruler's name because the dynasty founders didn't really choose to name their dynasty after themselves, they chose whatever name they thought most fitting, as far as I understand. The point remains that it is a Dynasty name rather than a nation name.

Perhaps some kind of decision where if a faction meets certain requirements (an obvious one being controlling a certain amount of China) they can "Claim the Mandate of Heaven" or something similar, which gives them cores across all of China.

 

[Taiisatai64]

Nationalists trying to restore the Ming dynasty is entirely accurate, Chinese history is filled with "Dynasties" being returned to power by people completely unrelated to the original "dynasty". It was an effort to legitimize their claim to the throne of the Middle Kingdom, and it happened often enough that most Chinese dynasties have been given suffixes by historians that are based on their geological location, to help distinguish between them.

Also, I too really hope that Paradox pays a lot more attention to China. Up until the very end of the games time period, China remained the cultural center of the world, and the Europeans, despite their advanced weaponry and the colonization of the Americas, were still regarded as "backwater barbarians". China itself is almost the size of the entire European continent - it's like having a unified Europe, basically. It was a very important part of the time period.

 

[Closet Skeleton]

It was a very important part of the time period.

China's stability and isolation also make it kind of a big empty space though.

Hopefully the trade route system will allow China to have its historical role as the major producer of Tea, Silk and Porcelain. The three major trade routes (silk road, round cape of Africa, changing ships after crossing Mexico over land) of the era were all Europe to China.

 

[Jia Xu]

Nationalists trying to restore the Ming dynasty is entirely accurate, Chinese history is filled with "Dynasties" being returned to power by people completely unrelated to the original "dynasty". It was an effort to legitimize their claim to the throne of the Middle Kingdom, and it happened often enough that most Chinese dynasties have been given suffixes by historians that are based on their geological location, to help distinguish between them.

This just isn't true. With few exceptions, dynasties do not return from the dead. If you're trying to create a "Later Xia" state, for example, you're not reviving Xia. It's like the difference between York and New York. Also, many aspiring dynasties that use a similar name, actually aren't. A lot of people don't appreciate that Chinese is a tonal language and that words that look the same in Roman characters actually aren't the same at all, because the tones are different, making them different words. Jìn and Jīn are not the same.

Restoring the Ming dynasty would require Ming dynasts. The problem with this is that traditionally, when a dynasty comes to power, members of the old dynasty tend to mysteriously die or go missing in large numbers. Finding legitimate dynasts who can claim legitimate patrilinial succession is often not possible, which leaves the aspiring rebels trying to enthrone the 3rd son of the 2nd last Emperor's sister with poor returns on their investment.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

This just isn't true. With few exceptions, dynasties do not return from the dead. If you're trying to create a "Later Xia" state, for example, you're not reviving Xia. It's like the difference between York and New York. Also, many aspiring dynasties that use a similar name, actually aren't. A lot of people don't appreciate that Chinese is a tonal language and that words that look the same in Roman characters actually aren't the same at all, because the tones are different, making them different words. Jìn and Jīn are not the same.

Restoring the Ming dynasty would require Ming dynasts. The problem with this is that traditionally, when a dynasty comes to power, members of the old dynasty tend to mysteriously die or go missing in large numbers. Finding legitimate dynasts who can claim legitimate patrilinial succession is often not possible, which leaves the aspiring rebels trying to enthrone the 3rd son of the 2nd last Emperor's sister with poor returns on their investment.

Actually, both Han and Tang dynasty were once interrupted for some time and got resurrected instead of dying out, and in OTL, Zheng Chenggong did brought some royal family members with him to Taiwan.

Furthermore, I suggest a 50 years decay of core just like when a province is under foreign control, in this case it means that the new dynasty has managed to gain the "blessing of heavens" and is now regarded as the "true" rulers of China.

 

[Jia Xu]

Actually, both Han and Tang dynasty were once interrupted for some time and got resurrected instead of dying out, and in OTL, Zheng Chenggong did brought some royal family members with him to Taiwan.

Xin and Later Zhou would be the "few exceptions" I mentioned. When Liu Shan finally surrendered to Wei, that was the end of any real Han resistance. There wasn't generations of "restore the Han" once the Jins came to power shortly after. People saw that Han and Wei were really cooked this time and accepted that this was just how the system worked. Strong dynasties replace weak ones.

 

[scholar]

Xin and Later Zhou would be the "few exceptions" I mentioned. When Liu Shan finally surrendered to Wei, that was the end of any real Han resistance. There wasn't generations of "restore the Han" once the Jins came to power shortly after. People saw that Han and Wei were really cooked this time and accepted that this was just how the system worked. Strong dynasties replace weak ones.

Liu Yuan, Li Cunxu, others.

Typically speaking the notion of restoring a Dynasty is ignored if it is clear that the dynasty maintains the 'mandate of heaven'. Should a Dynasty's existence be short lived, suffering from internal instability, and lasting only a handful of generations then the sentiment to restore the previous dynasty is stronger than replacing it with a new one. It depends entirely on the political climate. While the notion of a full fledged state emerging as China's dominant authority only happened twice, there are a little under half a dozen instances of states attempting to revive a pevious dynasty or state. Sometimes by way of ancestral ties, and others by way of cultural desire. The two named above were actually not ethnically Han, which actually highlights something very interesting. Kind of like how the Germans attempted to become Rome, so too do some Wu Hu attempt to become China.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

The whole point is moot. The call of rebel groups in the Qing Dynasty up until the mid 19th century was "Overthrow the Qing, Revive the Ming". If rebels wanted to recreate the Ming dynasty historically, they should be able to do so in game. Chinese culture wasn't really so concerned with bloodlines the way Europeans were, if you had the power and wanted to call yourself "Ming" no one was going to stop you. Furthermore, the first Ming emperor was Zhu Yuanzhang, a mere peasant who rose to be leader of a rebellion. If the first Ming dynasty was founded by a peasant, the next one could be as well.

After the Manchu conquest you need to have Han nationalism to still exist, Han Chinese throughout the Qing dynasty wanted to recreate a Han Chinese dynasty, and the most recent Han chinese dynasty in memory (the Ming) was what they usually rallied to.

 

[scholar]

The whole point is moot. The call of rebel groups in the Qing Dynasty up until the mid 19th century was "Overthrow the Qing, Revive the Ming". If rebels wanted to recreate the Ming dynasty historically, they should be able to do so in game. Chinese culture wasn't really so concerned with bloodlines the way Europeans were, if you had the power and wanted to call yourself "Ming" no one was going to stop you. Furthermore, the first Ming emperor was Zhu Yuanzhang, a mere peasant who rose to be leader of a rebellion. If the first Ming dynasty was founded by a peasant, the next one could be as well.

After the Manchu conquest you need to have Han nationalism to still exist, Han Chinese throughout the Qing dynasty wanted to recreate a Han Chinese dynasty, and the most recent Han chinese dynasty in memory (the Ming) was what they usually rallied to.

Oh no, being a 'Ming' has entirely to do with bloodlines. Obscure/fabrications or direct descendants. That's why its called a Dynasty. Should someone wish to create a state it wouldn't be called the Ming, nor would they even want to. China is obsessed with paternal lineage, with almost every family having familial records (even after the cultural revolution) obsessing over their ancestors. The primary call to religion in China is a pseudo-religious concept of ancestor worship, not as gods or spirits, but reverence towards them in heaven. Not only that but the Chinese state was governed almost entirely by the Confucian scholar-gentry which is very, very, particular about the Dynastic Cycle. Not to mention that attempting to go into another family, such as joining the Ming Dynasty, would be a slap in the face of all your ancestors, ancestors many of the Chinese devoted much of their lives offering sacrifices to and respecting.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

Oh no, being a 'Ming' has entirely to do with bloodlines. Obscure/fabrications or direct descendants. That's why its called a Dynasty. Should someone wish to create a state it wouldn't be called the Ming, nor would they even want to. China is obsessed with paternal lineage, with almost every family having familial records (even after the cultural revolution) obsessing over their ancestors. The primary call to religion in China is a pseudo-religious concept of ancestor worship, not as gods or spirits, but reverence towards them in heaven. Not only that but the Chinese state was governed almost entirely by the Confucian scholar-gentry which is very, very, particular about the Dynastic Cycle. Not to mention that attempting to go into another family, such as joining the Ming Dynasty, would be a slap in the face of all your ancestors, ancestors many of the Chinese devoted much of their lives offering sacrifices to and respecting.

I'm sure there'd be plenty of people who'd be willing to forge the documentation necessary to claim to be a Ming descendant. Respect for your ancestors only goes so far.

Also, Chinese emperors had many concubines and children, I'm sure there were also plenty of Ming descendants knocking about who could have put themselves at the head of rebel movement.

 

[scholar]

I'm sure there'd be plenty of people who'd be willing to forge the documentation necessary to claim to be a Ming descendant. Respect for your ancestors only goes so far.

Also, Chinese emperors had many concubines and children, I'm sure there were also plenty of Ming descendants knocking about who could have put themselves at the head of rebel movement.

True, the successor could pull an Ieyasu, but its so mind bogglingly unlikely when there are legitimate descendants of the house of Zhu, the Ming Dynastic house, that have kept records since their joining of the Qing that someone who wasn't a member of the house could somehow gain the legitimacy of it.

Its far more likely that a new Dynasty would form. The Dynasty that formed after the Qing's demise was not the Ming.