[Request:] "City Center" Effect

[CalPolyFan]

Now, this is a very big request, I get that.. But, would it be possible for someone to figure out how to:

A. Dramatically reduce the number of very tall buildings in-game.

B. "Focus" Growth of taller buildings in a city center "cluster(s)" around a set of factors:

1. Existing surrounding density
2. Existing surrounding land value
3. Interconnectedness to the rest of the city/ map / proximity to transportation
4. Proximity to Parks
5. Proximity to Water

The surrounding density of other buildings would be the main deciding factor regarding the "Focus" of the city. The tallest buildings will usually grow in this area, which is a gentle gradient, radiating out from a central core.

This growth pattern can of course "stretch" in certain directions, being pulled by the same above said factors..

Illustrations of "City Center" effects.

So, basically the tallest buildings will be built near the center of this "effect".. with some level of randomness to taller outlying buildings, but a general trend toward "up" in the center..

You guys know what I'm talking about..

Perhaps a slider-bar indicating how pronounced and focused the "city center effect" will be on a scale of 1 to 10 would be a nice addition.. A higher value would create a more tall/focused downtown, while a lower value would "flatten out" the city center effect create a more spread out Washington DC/European type city.

Such as:

The effect wouldn't be simply a circle though, it would be a "amoeba" looking blob, being pulled in different directions by the above factors.

Can it be done?

 

[rikmarkes]

You don't need a mod for that, you can do it with the current game tools (building density).

 

[bogieman987]

You don't need a mod for that, you can do it with the current game tools (building density).

And districts, banning high-rises and such to keep smaller buildings but high density.

 

[CalPolyFan]

And districts, banning high-rises and such to keep smaller buildings but high density.

I think you're missing the point and an enormous distinction.

There are 2 types of building density currently: low and high.. That's not exactly a lot of control, nor do I want control.

That's the thing, I want my city to develop organically, along an actual city simulation model.

What cities skylines is right now is not really a city simulator. I am asking for an actual city simulator, where tall buildings (over say like 7 or 8 stories) grow only near or around a focused region of the city, that focus originates organically around the above structure I noted, the main drivers being pre-existing density and land value, but interconnectedness being very important as well. that region grows as the city gets larger, but there is a focus to the city.

The size and shape of the city center can change over time if factors change, change size, shape, even a secondary force could arise if a city got large enough (like say 300K in CSL currently a secondary "cluster" might start to form in a huge city, like we see in New York with Uptown and Midtown.

It's like growing vs. plopping. Some people are cool plopping large commercial or residential buildings. I personally think that is an affront to the true city building genre and ethos.

I don't want to be plopping any large buildings personally, I want all tall buildings to grow organically.. I want the city to evolve around a downtown area..

Similarly, I want my skyline to develop organically, in a fashion similar to what one might expect in a modern city in North America, Europe, or even Zimbabwe. The city center effect even happens in 3rd world nations.. It's ubiquitous with the city form.

"Low" and "High" isn't cutting it.

 

[CalPolyFan]

And districts, banning high-rises and such to keep smaller buildings but high density.

Again, this is not an organic growth pattern, it is control-freaky.. I want the city to evolve naturally, maybe people don't understand what I'm saying, because it's never really been done correctly in a city sim yet?

 

[Zed68]

Again, this is not an organic growth pattern, it is control-freaky.. I want the city to evolve naturally, maybe people don't understand what I'm saying, because it's never really been done correctly in a city sim yet?

This would mean a category over 'high demand" and over "high land value"... a "historical land value" that would prevent high rises or modern buildings to grow.

Edit : and then only buildings of some predefined "ancient style" could grow in such zones... interesting.

 

[CalPolyFan]

This would mean a category over 'high demand" and over "high land value"... a "historical land value" that would prevent high rises or modern buildings to grow.

Edit : and then only buildings of some predefined "ancient style" could grow in such zones... interesting.

I think the main problem I have with this "city sim" so far is.. Just because something is zoned "high density residential" doesn't mean tall buildings should so easily be growing.

CSL to me looks extremely goofy because of the "Sea of tall buildings" which just are not realistic at all. I want a game to play like a real city.. where there is gradually increasing propensity for taller buildings toward a "city center effect" like we experience in real life.. the downtown area, which grows organically, not by physically controlling heights per se.

Not sure if the creators of the game thought it would be "more fun" with skyscrapers all over the place, but this would be a great setting to have available.. So, you could have different city growth patterns:

Examples of how the "city center effect" would manifest in-game.

Edmonton Alberta would be a Level 3 city center effect (spread out).. with a high randomness indicator for outlying buildings of say an 7..

Calgary on the other hand, has a much "tighter" feel to the city center effect, which would likely be the result of using say a level 6 city center effect. Calgary also has fewer outlying tall buildings, so the building randomness would be lower, like a 2.

Philadelphia:

City Center Effect: 7 Randomness: 3

Philadelphia has the same city center effect as Calgary, but as Philly is a larger city population and economy wise, its skyline is a bit taller.

Moscow: City Center Effect: 10, Randomness: 1


Also, I should clear up: I am very cool with high-rise bans in CSL, I'm great with that part, the part I have a problem with is that if you don't "ban" tall buildings they're going to grow all over the place, which doesn't look realistic.

The look to CSL right now is very "flat top" and doesn't feel real to me.. and wouldn't happen in most modern cities outside China/Eastern Europe. Yes, as the city gets larger some sporadic larger apartment towars should sprout up, but nowhere near the quantity we see currently, and more generally toward the center of the city.

The "City Center Effect" mod would greatly reduce the number of taller buildings away from downtown, and the city's tall growth would be focused. I think I'm not alone in wanting this. At least, I hope I'm not.

 

[Kanimir]

Again, this is not an organic growth pattern, it is control-freaky.. I want the city to evolve naturally, maybe people don't understand what I'm saying, because it's never really been done correctly in a city sim yet?

Cities dont "evolve naturally", city centres like you showed above looks like that because of city planning, and you can do that by banning high rises around the city centre, and then eventually ploping highest buildings in the middle of the high rise district.

CSL to me looks extremely goofy because of the "Sea of tall buildings" which just are not realistic at all. I want a game to play like a real city.. where there is a "tighter focus" to the downtown area, which grows organically, not by physically controlling heights per se.

Thats not how all real life cities look like, thats how american and a few otther places looks like. You haven't seen many cities if you think that the sea of tall buildings is not realistic at all. Ever seen chinese, korean or japanaese cities?

 

[Zed68]

I think the main problem I have with this "city sim" so far is.. Just because something is zoned "high density residential" doesn't mean tall buildings should so easily be growing.

CSL to me looks extremely goofy because of the "Sea of tall buildings" which just are not realistic at all. I want a game to play like a real city.. where there is a "tighter focus" to the downtown area, which grows organically, not by physically controlling heights per se.

Not sure if the creators of the game thought it would be "more fun" with skyscrapers all over the place in a 9 tile city, but imo the area in which tall buildings grow should be constricted down quite a bit.

I think that in rl if there was no control over it and enough demand we would see all our precious towncenters demolished and replaced by towers... and later by higher towers... and so on...

 

[CalPolyFan]

I think that in rl if there was no control over it and enough demand we would see all our precious towncenters demolished and replaced by towers... and later by higher towers... and so on...

Make Historic

 

[NorthStars]

CalPolyFan... I take your point about wanting this effect to evolve organically. I recognize that there's contrived element by "forcing" this effect, which is exactly what I've been doing so far. Having said that, although it would be cool for this to evolve without micromanaging the skyline heights, it doesn't really bother me too much to do that.

To be honest, I have a very strange reason for agreeing with you saying you'd like to see this... 500,000 people are playing this game right now, and I'm going to bet that a lot of those folks have never used a city builder before. My prediction is that many of them will stop playing after creating three towns, because they won't take the time to learn what's possible in this game. Their first three towns will be boring grids that look the same, so they'll give up. I think your "organic growth" of the skyline argument would keep many of those people in the game for longer, because a city would quickly start taking on the shape of a city automatically, which makes sense. And the more people who get truly hooked on this game, the better it will be for the community.

So, even though this isn't something I care about personally, I agree with CalPolyFan's argument from the perspective of selling newbies on the game.

Edit: For clarity, CalPolyFan, I'm not calling you a "newbie", you obviously are anything but that... I just think the point you're making is one that would make a particularly big difference for less-experienced players.

 

[NorthStars]

Cities don't "evolve naturally", city centres like you showed above looks like that because of city planning, and you can do that by banning high rises around the city centre, and then eventually ploping highest buildings in the middle of the high rise district.


That's not how all real life cities look like, that's how American and a few other places looks like. You haven't seen many cities if you think that the sea of tall buildings is not realistic at all. Ever seen Chinese, Korean or Japanese cities?

I've lived in North America, Europe, Asia and Africa. I've lived in centrally-planned areas, and areas the developed in more of a "free hand" manner. Although it's true that the shape of the skyline develops differently in different places dependent on a lot of factors, there's actually a lot more consistency, IMHO, than what you're implying. You brought up China, so let's take Shanghai as an example:

That's not to say there aren't counter-examples... but the world has very few cities containing a sea of skyscrapers of absolutely uniform height.

CalPolyFan suggested a number of factors that influence the formation of the tall buildings. I think the balance of these factors vary between locations, but some combination of these and perhaps a few other similar factors do in fact guide this process in a hidden manner. Even a city like Paris, which has a height limitation throughout its core, has a CBD that formed naturally just beyond the fringe of the height-limited area:

I know this effect would be very difficult to achieve organically, but it would be cool if it were possible. It is an ideal... then the district policy to limit building heights could simulate a situation like Paris's... which would be very cool. In the meantime, I will happily continue to create this effect through central planning... no big deal... but I still say CalPolyFan has a point.

 

[redjericho3]

This is something Simcity 4 did exceedingly well.

 

[lightrail]

Again, this is not an organic growth pattern, it is control-freaky.. I want the city to evolve naturally, maybe people don't understand what I'm saying, because it's never really been done correctly in a city sim yet?

What you're asking is too narrow. Not all cities grow the way you describe. Yours might but not all. And they only grow like that because of decisions made on density and height - all of which you can do in the game with zoning and district policies.

 

[medopu]

Now, this is a very big request, I get that.. But, would it be possible for someone to figure out how to:

IMO this shouldn't be really hard.

You would only need to tweak 2 parametres:

1) Tweaking of land-value penalties/bonuses.

Skyscrapers --> in C:SL terms = buildings with High level number (i'm not exactly sure, but it's above 20).
-Reduce land value bonuses for city services, parks, and so on, so you only have very few areas in your city to grow skyscrapers.
This would basically prevent skyscrapers to "grow" anywhere except in predesigned hotspots, that require very high land value for buildings to level up.

2) Heavily increase number of jobs skyscrapers provide --> draining the RCI demand quicker.

This would force high-level buildings (skyscrapers) to be a rarity, because the demand would simply need to grow longer, before you see your next skyscraper.

 

[Thedudeman3]

Son, if you want an actual city simulation with City Center effect and urban sprawl and the like, then you've come to the wrong place for that. If you want to do that in-game you need to work wonders with the district tool, or you'll just have to deal with it. Besides, having a city thats like Hong Kong or Dubai isn't that bad when you look at it for a while.

 

[Mithkabob]

IMO this shouldn't be really hard.

You would only need to tweak 2 parametres:

1) Tweaking of land-value penalties/bonuses.

Skyscrapers --> in C:SL terms = buildings with High level number (i'm not exactly sure, but it's above 20).
-Reduce land value bonuses for city services, parks, and so on, so you only have very few areas in your city to grow skyscrapers.
This would basically prevent skyscrapers to "grow" anywhere except in predesigned hotspots, that require very high land value for buildings to level up.

2) Heavily increase number of jobs skyscrapers provide --> draining the RCI demand quicker.

This would force high-level buildings (skyscrapers) to be a rarity, because the demand would simply need to grow longer, before you see your next skyscraper.

I'm working on this in a new mod right now. I have added a density level (1, 2, 3) for buildings based on their height within each class of building and now I'm working on determining how to implement density growth. I'm thinking it will have to do with land value and nearby density levels, with a wide circle to consider. Maybe add some effect from overall demand as well. I have the ban hi rises district policy limiting the density of the buildings instead of the level. Still, there are likely lot sizes and levels where there aren't appropriate buildings to pick, so it will just do the random stuff instead, so hopefully people will track down the lots that need some variety and make more buildings for them.

Also, building height plays a role in jobs/pop of a building, so it is starting to look fairly good.

 

[LordCrash]

I'm working on this in a new mod right now. I have added a density level (1, 2, 3) for buildings based on their height within each class of building and now I'm working on determining how to implement density growth. I'm thinking it will have to do with land value and nearby density levels, with a wide circle to consider. Maybe add some effect from overall demand as well. I have the ban hi rises district policy limiting the density of the buildings instead of the level. Still, there are likely lot sizes and levels where there aren't appropriate buildings to pick, so it will just do the random stuff instead, so hopefully people will track down the lots that need some variety and make more buildings for them.

Also, building height plays a role in jobs/pop of a building, so it is starting to look fairly good.

This forum is in severe need of a "like" button...

 

[Lakenstaken]

I'm working on this in a new mod right now. I have added a density level (1, 2, 3) for buildings based on their height within each class of building and now I'm working on determining how to implement density growth. I'm thinking it will have to do with land value and nearby density levels, with a wide circle to consider. Maybe add some effect from overall demand as well. I have the ban hi rises district policy limiting the density of the buildings instead of the level. Still, there are likely lot sizes and levels where there aren't appropriate buildings to pick, so it will just do the random stuff instead, so hopefully people will track down the lots that need some variety and make more buildings for them.

Also, building height plays a role in jobs/pop of a building, so it is starting to look fairly good.

Cant wait to try this! :O If you finish it that is ofcourse

 

[WillieTheWolf]

In RL there are plenty of rules about how tall can a building be, equivalent to the high rise ban. Where I live, they even limit the height of your house based on ridiculous laws. Right now, they are trying to prevent people with money to build bigger houses because it "spoils" the look.

The reason there are tall buildings in the town centers are usually based on land value (as they are trying to get the most out of expensive real estate. There're even cases where a company will buy air space around their building so other buildings don't rise over or build taller buildings by transferring development rights.

I think the high rise ban in the game works pretty well and accurate to what it is. That's what the district tool it is. It might feel like micromanagement, but it the way it works.