Resources

[Shadow Knight]

Thoughts on resources:

The only resource I am really concerned with is rubber. How much of a role did it really play during this time period?

If it didn't play to much of a role I would propose a change of rubber to another resource, specifically the ingrediants to the gunpowder of the time.

Specifically toluol; although it could symbolize other war materials, other than hard metals. Toluol was a key ingrediant in the manufacturing of TNT. It was primarily derived as a by product from coke ovens. Prior to the war the Allies got most of their toluol from Germany (kinda forgot where their chemicals were coming from). At the start of the war the French got most of theirs from the area around Lille (Which convienently for the Germans was easily acquired, being so close to Belgium.)

Although the allies were able to purchase toluol from the US (this could be a pretty cool series of events) which had a total capacity of aournd 700,000 pounds a month in 1914, but at the start of 1917 was around six million pounds per month (could be simulated by increase of 'rubber' in US territories by events).

Considering that in late 1916 Britain only produced 76,000 tons of high explosive the US supply was pretty incredible.

So the US could make 'lend lease' type of shipments to the Allies of toluol.

Heck if someone with enough skill could even draw a nice little pile of white chemical powder to replace the rubber symbol even better.

I think this is a great idea (not just because it is mine) but it would simulate the dependence on the war machine on chemicals. Especially the Allies dependence on US industry.

So what do you guys think?

 

[m45tion87]

Maybe they're going to change it to some other material...?

Answers, please?

 

[Johan Elisson]

ATM we've not changed rubber much except for giving all countries a 1 to 1 conversion from oil and 1 to 1 conversion from coal to oil to make it less important for the industry.

I've got to little knowing on this matter to either dismiss or accept your idea though... Remember that rubber is needed for all countries to get their industry going. Could oil be converted to toluol and if not, was it really important for the industry to keep rolling?

/Johan

 

[Allenby]

Most warships in these days used coal. Only the latest Dreadnoughts utilised oil.

Just a niggling detail mind you, changing that would be a lot of hassle.

 

[unmerged(11486)]

Wasn't it the Revenge class that used coal, even though they were comissioned after the Q.E. ships?

Perhaps oil could be renamed 'fuel', or would that be too generic?

This toulol idea sounds a lot like 'saltpetre' requirement in Civilization III. I think rubber should be left alone, with the 1-to-1 or better conversion ratios.


Steele

 

[Shadow Knight]

Originally posted by Johan Elisson
ATM we've not changed rubber much except for giving all countries a 1 to 1 conversion from oil and 1 to 1 conversion from coal to oil to make it less important for the industry.

I've got to little knowing on this matter to either dismiss or accept your idea though... Remember that rubber is needed for all countries to get their industry going. Could oil be converted to toluol and if not, was it really important for the industry to keep rolling?

/Johan

From what I understand toluol was only really gotten from coke ovens. Not all of industry per se, but without it no one would have been able to fire any aritllery shells because their would have been no powder.

As for rubber needed to run industry I would give everyone just enough so their factories keep running with maybe a small surplus each year. However the major powers, those you historically either didn't produce enough or lost their production areas would need to buy it from others.

The exception would be the US and maybe a few others. These extra countries could produce surplus enough to allow lend lease shipments or put out on the world market for those in need of some extra. I seem to recall the US even selling arm supplies to the Germans at times.

I just think this would add some interesting strategy to the game. When France lost their coke ovens around Lille they were literaly suffering for powder for their shells. It would represent the Allies growing dependence on US arms shipments and there courting of the US to enter the war.

Heck it would give the US player a chance to really start bargaining with the allies, with threats of killing off lend lease type shipments. (Note that prior to the war and all the way up through the 30's their was a debate in the US over their huge and successful arms industry. Not everyone was happy being the 'merchants of death'.)

 

[unmerged(15764)]

re

I like the idea would give the game a new "edge" and also make it differ more from hoi i dont see why not =D!

 

[Kaiser Bill]

Re: re

Originally posted by azid
I like the idea would give the game a new "edge" and also make it differ more from hoi i dont see why not =D!

I had always imagine rubber to represent those many diverse materials industry requires in various quantities not readily available in the old world, of which rubber was just one of the principle ones.

 

[Shadow Knight]

Re: Re: re

Originally posted by Kaiser Bill
I had always imagine rubber to represent those many diverse materials industry requires in various quantities not readily available in the old world, of which rubber was just one of the principle ones.

For HOI that might be the case. Vast amounts of aluminum, rubber, and other items not found in huge amounts in Europe came from the colonies, etc.

However, what materials other than hard metals, precious stones, etc. (which is represented by the steel resource icon) were being draw from those areas during the Great War period? I can not readily think of any, but I suppose I could be wrong.

[Stupid spelling/typing errors]

 

[unmerged(11486)]

The UK imported lumber from Canada. I realize that this is probably outside the scope of what we can do with this game, but several million board feet is a lot of lumber.

As for other resources, I don't really know...

Steele

 

[Shadow Knight]

Originally posted by Steele
The UK imported lumber from Canada. I realize that this is probably outside the scope of what we can do with this game, but several million board feet is a lot of lumber.

As for other resources, I don't really know...

Steele

Lumber among others I am sure, but I am worried more about critically important resources. Thankfully we are spared the peasants collecting lumber in this game.

 

[unmerged(11486)]

That brings back memories of Warcraft. That was a good game.

"Yes, M'Lord."

I think that rubber should be left as is, with the 1-to-1 (or better) conversions. After all, lots of tires were used in the war, as well as gaskets, fittings, gas masks, and lots of other things.

Steele

 

[Shadow Knight]

Originally posted by Steele
That brings back memories of Warcraft. That was a good game.

"Yes, M'Lord."

I think that rubber should be left as is, with the 1-to-1 (or better) conversions. After all, lots of tires were used in the war, as well as gaskets, fittings, gas masks, and lots of other things.

Steele

Yeah I remember Warcraft I, could not even lasso groups of units...man was that game hard.

If it is left as is, I will not be too upset, I just think this would add something new and strategic to the game.

 

[unmerged(15764)]

re

I dont think it would matter that much if we changed it, only make a fresh improvement IMO.

 

[Quetzok]

i mentioned before that germany had a problem with importing essential materials to produce explosives. but they soon solved this problem because the chemical industry had developed a process for synthetical explosives before war started. it was not really a drag.
germany also imported recources by using so called blockade runner which were huge submarines with a wide body.

 

[Shadow Knight]

Originally posted by Quetzok
i mentioned before that germany had a problem with importing essential materials to produce explosives. but they soon solved this problem because the chemical industry had developed a process for synthetical explosives before war started. it was not really a drag.
germany also imported recources by using so called blockade runner which were huge submarines with a wide body.

This is true, but the allies did not have as a developed chemical industry as Germany. Although I understand Britain's was too mean of a one.

 

[StephenT]

Coal Production

Some ideas and data to work with.

The following table is based on the League of Nations databook linked to by Gwalchmai and Shdwknightx's figures. It shows the current HoI coal production, the actual 1913 production in thousands of tons, and what the TGW figure should be if we assume 120,000 tons of coal per point. The last column shows the change we should then need to make to be historical (but see below).

Country	HoI	ktons	TGW	Change
USA	2158	517057	 4,353 	202%
GB	1818	343982	 2,896 	159%
GR	1705	202522	 1,705 	100%
RUS	1595	36011	 303 	19%
China	1469	15289	 129 	9%
AH	591	17780	 150 	25%
IT	480	1	 0 	0% (error in the data?)
Japan	470	21766	 183 	39%
FR	371	40560	 341 	92%
OE	288	843	 7 	2%
Spain	255	4016	 34 	13%
Brazil	160	26	 0 	0%
Belgium	150	22842	 192 	128%
Sweden	120	364	 3 	3%
NL	95	2441	 21 	22%
Argen'a	90	0	 -   	0%
Greece	75	0	 -   	0%
Persia	60	0	 -   	0%
Peru	60	274	 2 	4%
Serbia	60	100	 1 	1%
Rev Mex	60	445	 4 	6%
Cuba	60	0	 -   	0%
Mexico	50	445	 4 	7%
Colum'a	50	0	 -   	0%
Albania	50	0	 -   	0%
Venez'a	45	7	 0 	0%
Bulg'a	45	11	 0 	0%
Chile	40	0	 -   	0%
Norway	40	36	 0 	1%
Romania	40	450	 4 	9%
Bolivia	40	0	 -   	0%
Ecuador	40	0	 -   	0%
Luxem'g	40	0	 -   	0%
Dom Rep	40	0	 -   	0%
Guat'la	40	0	 -   	0%
Haiti	40	0	 -   	0%
Hond's	40	0	 -   	0%
Nicar'a	40	0	 -   	0%
Port'l	35	25	 0 	1%
Swiss	35	0	 -   	0%
Afgh'n	30	0	 -   	0%
Denmark	20	2	 0 	0%
Tibet	20	0	 -   	0%
CostaR.	20	0	 -   	0%
Mong'a	20	0	 -   	0%
Nepal	20	0	 -   	0%
Oman	20	0	 -   	0%
Panama	20	0	 -   	0%
Parag'y	20	0	 -   	0%
Yemen	20	0	 -   	0%
Siam	15	0	 -   	0%
Nejd	15	0	 -   	0%
Uruguay	10	0	 -   	0%
Liberia	10	0	 -   	0%
Bhutan	10	0	 -   	0%
Hedjaz	5	0	 -   	0%
Mont'o	0	0	 -   	0%
Jebel S.	0	0	 -   	0%
Sanusia	0	0	 -   	0%

Now, the HoI figures are obviously a long way out of line. However, I suspect that this has a lot to do with play balance, and so I'd be wary of making dramatic changes.

For example, every single country appears to have been given at least 10 coal, other than the ones we've created in our mod. Therefore, first recommendation: increase Hedjaz's coal to 10, and give Montenegro, Jebel Shammar and Sanusia 10 coal each as well. (Perhaps coal also stands in for other common resources)

Britain ought to have 60% more coal, and the USA twice as much. However, I suspect this has been restricted for play-balance reasons to stop them becoming too powerful, so I wouldn't change it.

Russia should only have one-fifth its current coal production. I think this is a reasonable change to make, although again for playbalance I'd suggest just halving its resources, rounding down to the nearest 10.

China should only have 10% of its current production, and I think that in this case, that is exactly what we should do. Incidentally, about 10% of China's production came from Manchuria.

I'd also reduce the Ottoman production to 10% its current value.

For every other country except Germany, France and Belgium, I'd suggest halving their current coal production (as with Russia) to a minimum of 10.

I've no idea how this will work out in an actual game

 

[Johan Elisson]

Remember that coal probably also symbolize other natural resources, and I cite "What is C.O.R.E.?":

4.4. The 4 natural resources in CORE will be used to represent the following:
4.4.1. Coal represents all coal reserves, and all similar fuels, such as wood and charcoal.
4.4.2. Steel represents steel and all other common metals, used in industry.
4.4.3. Oil represents petroleum reserves and sources.
4.4.4. Rubber represents all other, exotic, valuable industrial substances, minerals, and materials.
4.5. Supplies will represent all expendable war material, including food, ammunition, clothing, small equipment, spare parts, and other miscellaneous objects.

/Johan

 

[Shadow Knight]

So should we then give countries like Portugal, Ottoman Empire(somwhere in Anatolia), China, Manchuria, etc. Rubber to represent tungsten used for military needs?

My guess is that for Italy in Stephen's chart there is an error in the data...kind of like someone forgot to fill in the rest of the numbers after one. For simplicities sake I would increase Italy's coal by the same percentage as Austria-Hungry (a good natural enemy or strange ally to compare).

Anybody have a map or list of materials that countries produced in that time? Perhaps there is a list in that Swedish Encyclopedia from 1913 Johan of what countries produced that we could translate into the 4 natural resources and supplies.

 

[shell]

I've noticed that a very large percentage of France's recources (and nearly two thirds of their iron) are overseas. Over one hundred ships are needed for iron alone, and another for rubber. This seems a bit much; should some of these resources be moved to the mainland?