Rethinking the Hussite Sequence

[MattyG]

I was reviewing some events and turned to the Hussite event series.

I realised that there were some problem connections, and restructured it, only to realise even further that the sequence is flawed and so is the history.

mikl added a pre-quel of events about Jan Hus and the alternative Council of Constance, wherein Martinus can either protect Hus, burn him or send him back to Bohemia for a state trial. If he is sent to Hansa for protection, they can still decide to send him to Bohemia for trial.

The problem is that there is currently no follow-up if Hus is protected. No matter what happened at the council, the basic Hussite War sequence always plays out.

In addition, the Bohemian monarc list is the vanilla version, even though Sigismund really should not inherit, as the Wittelsbachs are the Imperial family, not the line which bore the viscious and evil Sigismund.

So, here's what I want to work out.

At the Council of Constance, Martinus has to deal with Jan Hus. He wields considerable authority, as the newly elected single Pope, but he also owes people favours and needs to appeal to the temporal monarchs. As a reformer, he is predisposed to save Hus, but the conservatives want his blood, especially the King of Bohemia, Vaclav IV.

1. Martinus tries to negotiate with Hus. If Hus will soften his stance on some issues, Martinus can protect him. If he remains steadfast, he will need to offer him up for trial, a trial he will surely lose.

2. Hus' choice would be 'random', meaning two separate events that sleep one another to give a 50% chance of either event happening so that player's can't control Hus' choice.

3. If Hus softens his stance, Martinus will protect him, sending him to Swabia or Hansa. If not, Hus burns and the traditional Bohemian Wars scenario plays out.

4. But what happens if Hus survives? Part of the Hussite Wars was a combination of two key events: one was the burning of Hus, despite Sigismund granting him safety at the council. The second is the death of Vaclav with no heir. We don't have to have Vaclav die when he does in 1421, and the Hussites can't be incensed at the burning of Hus if he doesn't burn.

Some Options:

1. Hus lives on but slowly loses his importance.

2. Vaclav lives on and has an heir, who comes under the influence of Hus or his ideas, and converts to Protestant upon his majority, essentially delaying the Hussite Wars for a while.

3. There is a civil war in Bohemia over succession, with the Regency winning and Hus being recalled as a sort of president.

4. Hus' partial recantation takes some of the steam from the Hussites and maybe there is no major conflict in Bohemia.

5. The Wittelsbachs claim the throne.


Ideas, ideas, ideas please!

 

[Don_Quigleone]

might be a bit extreme, but you could have an early reformation if the hussites win the hussite wars

 

[MattyG]

The Hussites did win the Hussite wars and they won concessions from the church in terms of the Compacts of Basel, in which the Church allowed bohemia some of the Hussites main differences with the church.

And so they were accepted back into the Church as Catholics, even though they were somewhat outside the Church. Kind of a compromise.

I guess that instead of having the Ultraquist faction win we could have the Taborists win, who would not have agreed to the Churches compromise.

Yes, it would be very very cool to have an early Reformation, but I really don't think that would have been the result of it. I don't think the rest of Europe was ready to revolt against the Pope.

 

[unmerged(16159)]

Yes, one of those can of worms I was always hoping to return to, but never managed.

I think the current event sequence is fine, and we add unneccesary detail by having Martinus negotiate with Hus. A Pope does not negotiate with a priest.

But the consequences you raise are interesting.

1. Hus lives on but slowly loses his importance.
This one is the most likely, whether he is in exile or lives in Bohemia. Perhaps he has the strength to unite the Boemians under a single banner, and gains 'control' of the state as a quasi-Theocracy, which returns to traditional monarchal rule on his death. So the current Hussite wars continue, but with Hus as a leader, rather than monarch.

2. Vaclav lives on and has an heir, who comes under the influence of Hus or his ideas, and converts to Protestant upon his majority, essentially delaying the Hussite Wars for a while.
A good one if Hus is in exile.

3. There is a civil war in Bohemia over succession, with the Regency winning and Hus being recalled as a sort of president.
Also a good one if Hus is in exile.

4. Hus' partial recantation takes some of the steam from the Hussites and maybe there is no major conflict in Bohemia.
I would prefer a history without the recantation, since the power of Hus' message adds to the weight of the whole reform program. Martinus doesn't actually want Hus to soften his message.

5. The Wittelsbachs claim the throne.
Too soon to create an uber-Bavaria, and the rest of the HRE would object, particularly Hungary.

 

[MattyG]

I think the current event sequence is fine,

I don't agree. The dates are wrong and the Papacy and hansa events are essentially irrelevant, either way resulting in the stading Vanilla event in 1421.

and we add unneccesary detail by having Martinus negotiate with Hus. A Pope does not negotiate with a priest.

But the Pope did negotiate with Hus, and tried to get him to recant. And a new Pope with an lot of politics to resolve and power to consolidate negotiates. He just does it in private, not in public.

1. Hus lives on but slowly loses his importance.
This one is the most likely, whether he is in exile or lives in Bohemia. Perhaps he has the strength to unite the Boemians under a single banner, and gains 'control' of the state as a quasi-Theocracy, which returns to traditional monarchal rule on his death. So the current Hussite wars continue, but with Hus as a leader, rather than monarch.

Agreed. But the Bohemians want reform and an end to papal control regardless of Hus' survival. They are also being strongly influenced by Wyclif's ideas at this point.

2. Vaclav lives on and has an heir, who comes under the influence of Hus or his ideas, and converts to Protestant upon his majority, essentially delaying the Hussite Wars for a while.
A good one if Hus is in exile.

We can do this one too.

3. There is a civil war in Bohemia over succession, with the Regency winning and Hus being recalled as a sort of president.
Also a good one if Hus is in exile.

Another outcome that we can include. variable outcomes are good.

4. Hus' partial recantation takes some of the steam from the Hussites and maybe there is no major conflict in Bohemia.
I would prefer a history without the recantation, since the power of Hus' message adds to the weight of the whole reform program. Martinus doesn't actually want Hus to soften his message.

Maybe not, but he also can't be anywhere near as radical as Hus, and obviously doesn;t support some of Hus' ideas, like that the Pope and the catholic Church are not sanctioned by god.

5. The Wittelsbachs claim the throne.
Too soon to create an uber-Bavaria, and the rest of the HRE would object, particularly Hungary.

Yes, but that is what we currently have, with bavaria most likely claiming the provinces and getting the cores, which is effectively the same thing.

 

[orimazd]

Another alternative involving number four is that Hus partially recants, splitting the Hussites into people who follow him and people who become even more radical.

 

[MattyG]

Another alternative involving number four is that Hus partially recants, splitting the Hussites into people who follow him and people who become even more radical.

That happened IRL, the Taborists and the Ultrquists. What I suggest is that these two factions (given different names, natch) emerge if Hus is killed, or recants. Only if Hus survives and returns to lead Bohemia (at the head of a council) would there be no significant split.

 

[MattyG]

So, here is my idea for the fow of events for Bohemia in its early years.


1. Council of Constance

action_a Martinus V offers to accommodate Hus and his followers if he acknowledges the authority of the Pope and the Church.

action_b Martinus V appeases the conservatives and has Hus tried and found guilt and burns him. Go to standard Hussite Wars.

2. Hus Responds

Bohemia controls this event ... (nice touch, eh?)

action_a Hus recognizes the supremecy of the Pope and is given safe passage to Mecklenburg.

action_b Hus does not, and burns, go to standard Hussite Wars.

3. Hus in Mecklenburg

At the Death of Vaclav IV, the shit hits the fan, of course. We can have several suitors for the throne (just not the RL Sigismund, it isn't possible). As always, we need to start by thinking strategically for the game and fill the history in behind.

action_a Poland

One obvious choice is Poland, given the number of intermarriages between those two countries, there is bound to be a link. And the Poles supported the Hussites IRL. It could be choice a, leading Hus to support that person and return and result is a united Polish-Bohemia protestant country and war.

action_b Luxemburg

Given that Vaclav is from the house of Luxemburg, a relative is proferred from there: this is the Pope's choice. He's conservative, leading to revolts. If the revolts win, go to Hussite Wars.

action_c Establish a council

Hus returns to lead a council. Result is a protestant Bohemia and Hussite War. If the Hussites win, they eventually go Reformed instead of just Protestant.


4. Hussite Wars

Hus is burned, or a Polish heir inherits, or the Council is formed, all after the death of Vaclav IV.

Runs somewhat along historical lines. A few names changed to protect the innocent. There is ultimately an internal dispute between the pruists and concessionists. War continues longer if the purists are chosen, shorter under the concessionists. But the purists remain protestant, the concessionists return to the fold, more or less. If Hus is not burnt, then there is no internal conflict and the purists dominate, that would be the main difference.


5. How to Void the Wars

If the Luxemburg dude is accepted/chosen and the civil wars are put down, Bohemia remains catholic.

 

[MattyG]

PS: apologies to mikl if I have made it seem that any of the probelms in the current sequence are his fault. We are still weeding out the rubbish from Aberration, I'm afraid.

 

[unmerged(36449)]

I was reviewing some events and turned to the Hussite event series.

I realised that there were some problem connections, and restructured it, only to realise even further that the sequence is flawed and so is the history.

mikl added a pre-quel of events about Jan Hus and the alternative Council of Constance, wherein Martinus can either protect Hus, burn him or send him back to Bohemia for a state trial. If he is sent to Hansa for protection, they can still decide to send him to Bohemia for trial.

The problem is that there is currently no follow-up if Hus is protected. No matter what happened at the council, the basic Hussite War sequence always plays out.

In addition, the Bohemian monarc list is the vanilla version, even though Sigismund really should not inherit, as the Wittelsbachs are the Imperial family, not the line which bore the viscious and evil Sigismund.

So, here's what I want to work out.

At the Council of Constance, Martinus has to deal with Jan Hus. He wields considerable authority, as the newly elected single Pope, but he also owes people favours and needs to appeal to the temporal monarchs. As a reformer, he is predisposed to save Hus, but the conservatives want his blood, especially the King of Bohemia, Vaclav IV.

1. Martinus tries to negotiate with Hus. If Hus will soften his stance on some issues, Martinus can protect him. If he remains steadfast, he will need to offer him up for trial, a trial he will surely lose.

2. Hus' choice would be 'random', meaning two separate events that sleep one another to give a 50% chance of either event happening so that player's can't control Hus' choice.

3. If Hus softens his stance, Martinus will protect him, sending him to Swabia or Hansa. If not, Hus burns and the traditional Bohemian Wars scenario plays out.

4. But what happens if Hus survives? Part of the Hussite Wars was a combination of two key events: one was the burning of Hus, despite Sigismund granting him safety at the council. The second is the death of Vaclav with no heir. We don't have to have Vaclav die when he does in 1421, and the Hussites can't be incensed at the burning of Hus if he doesn't burn.

Some Options:

1. Hus lives on but slowly loses his importance.

2. Vaclav lives on and has an heir, who comes under the influence of Hus or his ideas, and converts to Protestant upon his majority, essentially delaying the Hussite Wars for a while.

3. There is a civil war in Bohemia over succession, with the Regency winning and Hus being recalled as a sort of president.

4. Hus' partial recantation takes some of the steam from the Hussites and maybe there is no major conflict in Bohemia.

5. The Wittelsbachs claim the throne.


Ideas, ideas, ideas please!

Well the key here is the alternate history.....

IRL Hus got himself in trouble protesting the selling of indulgences in Bohemia.

Indulgences that were being sold to fund a war against a Wittelsbach emperor in conflict with Rome....


Now since the Wittelsbach' ARE the de facto imperial family, well I would think that Hus has pretty much a VERY powerful protecter in them.

To be honest, since the Bohemians were none to thrilled with the house of Luxembourg' rule to the point that they seriously offered the throne to Ludwig of Bavaria (Ernst brother) before 1419 and offered the throne to Ernst' son Albrecht?

Hus survives under the emperor' protection and Vaclav and Sigismund are out on their butts! Odds favor Bavaria taking the throne and with Hus alive and concessions being forced from Rome I don't think you get a Hussite war at all.

No dead martyr to rally the troops and no oppression to anger them enough to head a call to arms.

 

[MattyG]

Very nice.

Your knowledge of the period certainly exceeds mine. And I am very happy that your suggested outcome be one of those we present.

However, let me challenge you on two points.

1. If this is an alternate history, with the Wittelsbachs as the imperial family, would they still be in contention with the Pope? This is a new Pope, freshly minted at the (delayed) Council of Constance. Are the Wittelsbachs going to be in contention with this Pope, or desperately supporting him and the stability he represents?

2. Even if the Wittelsbachs do support Hus, at least initially, there is still the matter of heresy to be dealt with. How could the Emperor be both the protector of the Pope and the Church and a champion of one of the major heretics of the period?

 

[Don_Quigleone]

I'm not sure about the details of how the hussite wars should carry out, but they should effect how the reformation goes, as Jan Hus was one of the first reformers, example:

If the hussites are accomated by the catholic church the probability of an alternate reformation should go up, however if he is firmly rejected then a traditional reformation should go.

Also it should also effect whether surrounding countries go protestant during the reformation, example if the hussites are soundly beaten, bohemia should stay catholic during the reformation, but if they are compromised with, they should go protestant, what happens during the conflict and it's aftermath and how different countries react to the conflict should effect what action they take as part of the reformation,

One event sequence that could happen is that if the hussites lose countries could be asked if they're willing to take in hussites refugees (as they'd probably be expelled from bohemia) this could in turn effect the reformation in those individual countries.

It might all seem slightly complicated, but you could always adapt a system similiar to the agceep reformation, which models the spread of protestantatism in a rather cool way, and then have each of these decisions effect which reformation model is activated

 

[MattyG]

If the hussites are accomated by the catholic church the probability of an alternate reformation should go up, however if he is firmly rejected then a traditional reformation should go.

I guess it did, because they were. Read up on the Compacts of Basel. And while, of course, everything that happens affects the outplay of the rest of history (except in Star Trek and Dr. Who) we are not in a position to create yet another version of the Reformation. Unless the Catholic Church reforms and abandons such corrupt elements as Indulgences, there will continue to be those who demand reform, and the dynamic Martin Luther will still come along.

Also it should also effect whether surrounding countries go protestant during the reformation, example if the hussites are soundly beaten, bohemia should stay catholic during the reformation, but if they are compromised with, they should go protestant, what happens during the conflict and it's aftermath and how different countries react to the conflict should effect what action they take as part of the reformation,

Perhaps, but the Lollards were crushed in England, but England still went protestant.

One event sequence that could happen is that if the hussites lose countries could be asked if they're willing to take in hussites refugees (as they'd probably be expelled from bohemia) this could in turn effect the reformation in those individual countries.

We already have that for Hungary and Halych-Volhynia.

It might all seem slightly complicated, but you could always adapt a system similiar to the agceep reformation, which models the spread of protestantatism in a rather cool way, and then have each of these decisions effect which reformation model is activated

Theirs is an innovative system, and well thought out. But it takes a lot of work I am not prepared to put in at this stage. (Feel free to take on that project, though!) Interregnum instead offers it Alternate Reformation sequence.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

I wasn't thinking that the actions taken in bohemia should create an entirely new reformation, just that they should affect the probability of the alternate or traditional reformation taking place that's all, by way of ai events for the papal states (obviously if rome is controlled by the player they get to choose whichever they like).

You're right about the lollards though, so yeah, however I just think it's a bit weird that in the traditional reformation sequence bohemia seems to always stay catholic, so I thought the ai outcome could be somewhat determined here.

 

[MattyG]

I wasn't thinking that the actions taken in bohemia should create an entirely new reformation, just that they should affect the probability of the alternate or traditional reformation taking place that's all, by way of ai events for the papal states (obviously if rome is controlled by the player they get to choose whichever they like).

You're right about the lollards though, so yeah, however I just think it's a bit weird that in the traditional reformation sequence bohemia seems to always stay catholic, so I thought the ai outcome could be somewhat determined here.

I am certain that in EU3 it will be handled differently. There is room in that program for lots of different religions, and Bohemia under the Compact is a sort of catholic-Protestant hybrid. They couldn't defeat the Bohemians in battle over 16 years, so the Pope essentially gives in and brokers a compromise that lets them keep some of their heresies, but not all.

I agree, though, that the alternative reformation sequence ought to be affected by the outcome of Lollardy in Wessex and Hussitism in Bohemia. I personally believe that if either survives, then the alternative reformation is LESS likely to happen.

 

[unmerged(16159)]

PS: apologies to mikl if I have made it seem that any of the probelms in the current sequence are his fault. We are still weeding out the rubbish from Aberration, I'm afraid.

Absolutely no offense taken. Howevr I am still hoping that thus turns out to be a footnote in European history, and does not affect the timing of our reformation.

 

[unmerged(16159)]

1. If this is an alternate history, with the Wittelsbachs as the imperial family, would they still be in contention with the Pope? This is a new Pope, freshly minted at the (delayed) Council of Constance. Are the Wittelsbachs going to be in contention with this Pope, or desperately supporting him and the stability he represents?

2. Even if the Wittelsbachs do support Hus, at least initially, there is still the matter of heresy to be dealt with. How could the Emperor be both the protector of the Pope and the Church and a champion of one of the major heretics of the period?

1. But in our history, there is a growing conflict between Wittelsbach and Pope. It's a central platform of the Crusade events and reaction to the reformation.

2. I don't think Bavaria would support Hus, unless it was to 'protect' them byb making them a Vassal. They didn't want instability in their region, nor do they want anyone challenging the monarchy rule. Vaclav and Sigismund would stay, even if Hus was supported, surely.

 

[unmerged(16159)]

I agree, though, that the alternative reformation sequence ought to be affected by the outcome of Lollardy in Wessex and Hussitism in Bohemia. I personally believe that if either survives, then the alternative reformation is LESS likely to happen.

More likely. Surely with agitating, anti-papal pamphlets appearing all over northen and eastern Europe, the seeds of doubt in papal authority begin to be planted.

I'd go as far (go go go) to say that if Hus is executed, we should sleep event some of the Papal States events concerning Indulgences.

 

[unmerged(16159)]

So, here is my idea for the fow of events for Bohemia in its early years.


1. Council of Constance

action_a Martinus V offers to accommodate Hus and his followers if he acknowledges the authority of the Pope and the Church.

action_b Martinus V appeases the conservatives and has Hus tried and found guilt and burns him. Go to standard Hussite Wars.

2. Hus Responds

Bohemia controls this event ... (nice touch, eh?)

action_a Hus recognizes the supremecy of the Pope and is given safe passage to Mecklenburg.

action_b Hus does not, and burns, go to standard Hussite Wars.

3. Hus in Mecklenburg

At the Death of Vaclav IV, the shit hits the fan, of course. We can have several suitors for the throne (just not the RL Sigismund, it isn't possible). As always, we need to start by thinking strategically for the game and fill the history in behind.

action_a Poland

One obvious choice is Poland, given the number of intermarriages between those two countries, there is bound to be a link. And the Poles supported the Hussites IRL. It could be choice a, leading Hus to support that person and return and result is a united Polish-Bohemia protestant country and war.

action_b Luxembourg

Given that Vaclav is from the house of Luxembourg, a relative is proferred from there: this is the Pope's choice. He's conservative, leading to revolts. If the revolts win, go to Hussite Wars.

action_c Establish a council

Hus returns to lead a council. Result is a protestant Bohemia and Hussite War. If the Hussites win, they eventually go Reformed instead of just Protestant.


4. Hussite Wars

Hus is burned, or a Polish heir inherits, or the Council is formed, all after the death of Vaclav IV.

Runs somewhat along historical lines. A few names changed to protect the innocent. There is ultimately an internal dispute between the pruists and concessionists. War continues longer if the purists are chosen, shorter under the concessionists. But the purists remain protestant, the concessionists return to the fold, more or less. If Hus is not burnt, then there is no internal conflict and the purists dominate, that would be the main difference.


5. How to Void the Wars

If the Luxembourg dude is accepted/chosen and the civil wars are put down, Bohemia remains catholic.

Neat, sweet and tight. I object only to action_c under Item 3. I can't see a power vacuum being filled with a council, in 1419. Why is Sigismund not the likely heir here?

And I love the Polish version, supported by Bavaria. Bohemia continue with Sigismund, as vassals of Poland, then an event at (childless) Sigismunds death annexing the country if Poland is bigger than - say - 4 provinces.

 

[unmerged(16159)]

So a minor revision of one of the first PAP events...

event = {
id = 464011
trigger = { }
random = no
country = PAP
name = " Jan Hus the Heretic "
desc = " At the Council of Constance, Martinius enjoyed immense personal control following his election, but also was required to make concessions to those who had elected him. His biggest problem was the Bohemian reformer Jan Hus whose ideas had angered the conservative cardinals and Kings, particularly Zigmund of Bohemia. Martinius however saw Hus as integral to his reform programme, and enjoyed the covert protection of Martinus V. Therefore Martinus made covert and informal steps to protect Hus. The Pope sought a compromise whereby he would seek some of the reforms Hus wanted, in return for his acknowledment of His Papal Authority. "
date = { day = 3 month = january year = 1419 }

action_a = {
name = " Reach a compromise "
command = { type = trigger which = 442151 } #(" triggers Protecting Jan Hus.")
}
action_b = {
name = " Send him to Bohemia for a state trial "
command = { type = trigger which = 515011 } #("triggers Jan Hus on trial for herecy.")
}
action_c = {
name = " Let him burn "
command = { type = trigger which = 515012 } #(triggers Jan Hus executed')
command = { type = sleepevent which = 464041 } #The Council of Avignon
}
}