Revolts in CK?

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I was just wondering if we will have to deal with revolts in CK (sorry if this has been answered, but I haven't seen anything on it). Also, if there are, I would like to know what options we have to deal with it. Is there an option to convert like EUII or do you have the option to convert by the sword? Do you have mass emigrations of muslims from the holy land if you conquer it? Do you have mass immigrations of christians?

If anyone knows, please enlighten me - thank you.

Jono

P.S. If the answer is, "wait until you play the game" I'll just have to.....ah........wait - but I'll be doing it under protest

 

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I was just wondering if we will have to deal with revolts in CK (sorry if this has been answered, but I haven't seen anything on it). Also, if there are, I would like to know what options we have to deal with it.

There will undoubtly be revolts in CK. Peasants revolting against you rule of oppresion, hostile nobles, rival pretenders for the throne, religious fanatics... the list is endless.
If it follows the formula of EU2/Vic the only option once the revolt got underway would be to simply kill the buggers, but some options (like in M:TW ) to only kill the leaders would be nice... Nothing quite like killing every member of three rebellions and then spare the fourth just for the hell of it!

Is there an option to convert like EUII or do you have the option to convert by the sword? Do you have mass emigrations of muslims from the holy land if you conquer it? Do you have mass immigrations of christians?

I don't really have a clue, but hopefully we won't see the Kingdom of Jerusalem willingly convert to islam to conform to its religious majority. And as there was no mass immigration of Christians to the holy land (plenty of pilgrims, but why would anyone from France want to LIVE in that desert hellhole surrounded by infidels? ) I hope it we wont see to much of that!

 

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And as there was no mass immigration of Christians to the holy land (plenty of pilgrims, but why would anyone from France want to LIVE in that desert hellhole surrounded by infidels? )

Good point - don't know why that didn't occur to me :wacko:.

Thanks for the reply.

Jono

 

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I would imagine vassal revolts will be a center-piece of combat/war in the game.

 

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I don't really have a clue, but hopefully we won't see the Kingdom of Jerusalem willingly convert to islam to conform to its religious majority. And as there was no mass immigration of Christians to the holy land (plenty of pilgrims, but why would anyone from France want to LIVE in that desert hellhole surrounded by infidels? ) I hope it we wont see to much of that!

Conversion by time.. slow, revolting population and unwilling troops.. but as producticve as ever, or

Conversion by sword.. fast, only one big revolt, willing & loyal but dirtpoor (basetax =0) and all buildings destroyed. Will slowly grow over the next two centuries to full strength

That would be one model.

..
Unless religion is something that only affects the ruling houses, the peoples beliefs being irrelevant (and as such not displayed)

 

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Conversion by time.. slow, revolting population and unwilling troops.. but as producticve as ever, or

Conversion by sword.. fast, only one big revolt, willing & loyal but dirtpoor (basetax =0) and all buildings destroyed. Will slowly grow over the next two centuries to full strength

That would be one model.

..
Unless religion is something that only affects the ruling houses, the peoples beliefs being irrelevant (and as such not displayed)

Culture will slowly assimilate (either changing the people to the culture of their rulers, or the other way around ) so I suppose religious conversion would work much the same way. Attempts to convert by the sword weren't always succesful: Palestine went back to Islam pretty quickly, even though the Crusaders massacred quite a bunch...

 

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Culture will slowly assimilate (either changing the people to the culture of their rulers, or the other way around )

Bugreport: I understand that either a conversion to the populations culture, or the change of the population is possible.. but now they happened at the sametime so my german.. eh, arab king is now lord of a german egypt.

 

[Earl Uhtred]

Something that was lacking in EU was the ability to negotiate with rebels. It would be cool if each popular rebellion had a 'cause' (local autonomy, religious freedom, tax relief etc) which you could choose to meet for heavy prestige loss and the dispersal of the revolt.

 

[Snall]

I hate rebellious peoples, they must be killed...unless they are noble..then they get ransomed...

 

[Dinsdale]

"Although a steady flow of settlers came to settle, it was obvious that the Franks lacked sufficient manpower to rebuild and maintain urban communities" - Phillips

There was certainly immigration to the Crusader Kingdoms, from all classes. In response to "why would anyone leave France," well during the 12th century it would have been much more pleasant to live in the Levant than the old Kingdoms. For the poor and middle classes, there were opportunities in the bustling cities, and for the nobility land.

Life in the Levant would be significantly more pleasant due to a more varied and healthy diet, real medecine and sanitation. So the real question is "why would anyone live in France when they could move to the Kingdom of Jerusalem" Of course with easier travel and without the restrictions of serfdom, there might have been even greater movement to the East.

 

[Endre Fodstad]

"Life in the Levant would be significantly more pleasant due to a more varied and healthy diet, real medecine and sanitation. So the real question is "why would anyone live in France when they could move to the Kingdom of Jerusalem" Of course with easier travel and without the restrictions of serfdom, there might have been even greater movement to the East.

Well...there is nothing to indicate that either nobs, clergy, cityfolk or peasants had such a bad diet in France by comparison to the Levant. Probably the city people had somewhat better access to fresh foods, as the cities weren't as large, the transporting distances for foodstuffs were shorter, and there was a more plentiful supply of ice(at least in the north of europe-ice houses for food preservation have been found on 12th century norwegian farms). Food rots a bit faster in the levantine climate.

The medical schools of Salerno and otherwheres were turning out doctors by the end of the 11th century that were quite on level with their arabian contemporaries(correspondance had been going back and forth since the founding of the University in the and before). In the 12th or 13th century the "Regimen Sanitatis Salernitanum" was published based on lectures on how to prevent disease and illness by a regimen of good dieting and exercise. This work was partly based on the Sirr al-asrar(translated as the Secretum secretorum in the early 12th century) that again based itself on classical sources. However, the "Salerno Book of Health" greatly expands on the subject and adds many new ideas, especially in dieting terms. The often cited
'Kitab al-I‘tibar' by Usama ibn Munqidh tells stories of appalling frankish medical practices, but to anyone who actually bothers to read the entire text it becomes obvious that Usama intends primarily to demonstrate quaint frankish customs: he describes a host of other frankish medical practices that are far less extreme and actually work well(though they are still strange - i.e. not the practices of his medical tradition) - it's just that most Medieval Arab fanboy-historians(who really love to go on about the stupid franks) pick and choose from arab texts to demonstrate their points. The arabs had a medical egde in 1066 but it rapidly diminished as the years went by.

Sanitation varied greatly, but to expect the commoner to have any real sanitation in the middle east by the twelth century is pretty optimistic. The rich could have it(just as in the west - the castle of Bergenhus, built in the mid-to-late 13th century, had a clever system of drains leading human waste into the ocean below the castle), but the 90% or so rural population shat a few hundred meters away from their cottages, just like in the west, and the common drink in cities in both France and Jerusalem was beer or wine, heavily diluted - the water just wasn't entirely safe. This doesn't change until well into the modern period.

The ancient cities often had older drainages and water sources, often from roman times(or they'd have emptied rather fast) but it wasn't anything like proper sanitation. Levantines died from plagues due to bad sanitation just as easily and often as Frenchmen. The main reason for people to leave for the Levant was religious ones - living closer to the tomb of the Saviour did wonders for the soul, supposedly - or commercial ones - the toys from Asia really had a draw on those merchants.

'Conversion by the sword' was seldomly practiced(though killing off the heathen could be a good thing, sometimes - but usually during war. Most people forget Jerusalem fell by assault - and the old traditions of the siege give little mercy to resisting cities) and actual missionary work among the muslims in the crusader states did not start until late in the 13th century, when they were pretty much lost anyway. Spain was a very different matter, but even there the soft glove was preferred, as was it in the northern crusading areas. Saving a heathens' soul by peaceful means was the way prescribed by the church - armed conversions tended to backfire when the convertée was left alone.

A CK conversion option should really cost some money, especially in the levant. The EU2 model was a bit too simple, really.

 

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I'd find it a good idea for conversions by word (rather than by sword) requiring a certain amount of clergy of your religion present in the province.

I mean, with no one to baptize the heathens, how would they convert?

 

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Conversion with force should be possible, place an army in a region, click convert and let the peasants revolt (at once, so you don't forget about it).

Just one thing, the revolts, should be reduced severely. In EUII it's way too much of them, I have seen all of Europe go up in rebellions when they in reality should have been fighting the napoleonic war, don't let the revolters ruin games in CK.

 

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In EUII it's way too much of them, I have seen all of Europe go up in rebellions when they in reality should have been fighting the napoleonic war, don't let the revolters ruin games in CK.

That was my main reason for asking this question - will we have another option in regards to revolts besides putting up with them for 30 years or more. I'll take a hit to money, pop, or whatever so that they may be curbed.

Jono

 

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Endre Fodstad made a good case against massive migration to the Holy Land, so all I have to say is... Hm.

OK, I'll go a bit off-topic and ask if there is a way for me to profit from pilgrims? It'd be really nice to find the bones of some ancient martyr and put them in my Cathedral to earn a pretty penny

 

[Earl Uhtred]

What would be cool would be to CREATE martyrs Cynically slay Thomas Becket in the knowledge you'll make a fortune selling faux genuine blood and bone fragments to gullible pilgrims...

 

[Dinsdale]

Lost my damn post This is a much shorter version

Well...there is nothing to indicate that either nobs, clergy, cityfolk or peasants had such a bad diet in France by comparison to the Levant. Probably the city people had somewhat better access to fresh foods, as the cities weren't as large, the transporting distances for foodstuffs were shorter, and there was a more plentiful supply of ice(at least in the north of europe-ice houses for food preservation have been found on 12th century norwegian farms). Food rots a bit faster in the levantine climate.

I agree with you about ice in Scandanavia, but the goods available in the markets of Tyre and Acre were filled with spices unavailable in Northern Europe for another 2-3 centuries. Pepper was commonplace in Tyre, but rare enough in England to be used as payments for rent. France did not have such frigid winters, and I have not seen any evidence for advanced food preservation there, or in Germany during the period. Salt was the preservative of choice during the harsh winters, hardly comparable.

The medical schools of Salerno and otherwheres were turning out doctors by the end of the 11th century that were quite on level with their arabian contemporaries(correspondance had been going back and forth since the founding of the University in the and before). In the 12th or 13th century the "Regimen Sanitatis Salernitanum" was published based on lectures on how to prevent disease and illness by a regimen of good dieting and exercise. This work was partly based on the Sirr al-asrar(translated as the Secretum secretorum in the early 12th century) that again based itself on classical sources. However, the "Salerno Book of Health" greatly expands on the subject and adds many new ideas, especially in dieting terms. The often cited
'Kitab al-I‘tibar' by Usama ibn Munqidh tells stories of appalling frankish medical practices, but to anyone who actually bothers to read the entire text it becomes obvious that Usama intends primarily to demonstrate quaint frankish customs: he describes a host of other frankish medical practices that are far less extreme and actually work well(though they are still strange - i.e. not the practices of his medical tradition) - it's just that most Medieval Arab fanboy-historians(who really love to go on about the stupid franks) pick and choose from arab texts to demonstrate their points. The arabs had a medical egde in 1066 but it rapidly diminished as the years went by.

This is a radical departure from conventional thought Endre. Some sources which equate Frankish and Saracen medecine would be nice. I have read Usama's work, and I do not agree that it's entirety makes Frankish medecine less barbarous. In fact, the amputation which Usama abhors in his work was still the primary form of battlefield medecine through the 19th century does little to advance the theory of Western supremacy.

Would you seriously consider Salerno to be in the same class as Cordoba in medical practice and training?

Sanitation varied greatly, but to expect the commoner to have any real sanitation in the middle east by the twelth century is pretty optimistic.

Again, new ground for your Endre to compare sanitary practices between Levantine and French sanitary practices. One wonders why soaps and perfumes were such commonplace items in the Acre market if they were not being used. Public baths were unheard of since the fall of Rome in the West, yet commonplace in the Levant.

Sanitation, in terms of learning to wash and learning the connection between diasese and dirt was entirely new for the Franks. Even as late as the 16th century, the Inquisition believed that Jews could be identified through their personal hygene in Spain; washing became a dangerous practice.

The main reason for people to leave for the Levant was religious ones - living closer to the tomb of the Saviour did wonders for the soul, supposedly - or commercial ones - the toys from Asia really had a draw on those merchants.

I agree with the commercial aspects, there's little evidence that Italian merchants in the Crusader States were more pious than their bretheren at home, but I would speculate that the main motivations to move to the East were the same as those which motivated people to move to the American wilderness during the 16th and 17th centuries; economics and land. There is little evidence that outside the guaranteed Indulgence for crusading that any religious motives would persuade either a burgher or petty noble to embark for the East. Even the knightly orders degenerated into far more worldly organizations than their religious roots.

Crusades in Spain, Tunisia, Egypt and Byzantium had no pretence of being closer to Jesus's homeland, and the motivations behind those expeditions were identical to those which attempted to re-establish the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

'Conversion by the sword' was seldomly practiced(though killing off the heathen could be a good thing, sometimes - but usually during war. Most people forget Jerusalem fell by assault - and the old traditions of the siege give little mercy to resisting cities) and actual missionary work among the muslims in the crusader states did not start until late in the 13th century, when they were pretty much lost anyway.

I agree, life for the population after the first crusade was little different under the Frankish rulers, and although there was immigration, it was never sizable enough to establish a larger footprint on the area, or keep the Kingdoms tenable.

Had travel been as accesible as it became during the next bout of colonization, then there's little doubt that more settlers would have emmigrated, but the Kingdoms did not last long enough for mass immigration to take place.

 

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Wow - it's hard core history in here isn't it?

 

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Wow - it's hard core history in here isn't it?

Nah, I just post random things I heard of Discovery Channel

 

[Endre Fodstad]

I'll do this without quoting Dinsdale; it makes for a much more orderly post.

Ice and food preservation
Pepper does not preserve food very well. Neither does saffron or other expensive spices. Salting and smoking meat preserves meats, honey can preserve fruit, cheese-making 'preserves' milk. All those methods were used in medieval europe. Pepper a steak heavily, leave it out in a non-freezed temperature(belowground you can get it fairly cold) for a month, and try it out. I have witnessed an extremely enjoyable event in which a lecturer of medieval history, who had been teaching us that medieval people 'used spices to mask the smell of bad meat', being given a hunk of bad lamb, heavily seasoned and grilled, to eat. Cue a weeks absense from the university due to diharrea. After this he wasn't all so certain about the theory. I have not seen direct evidence of ice houses outside scandinavia, the mountain regions of europe russia, england and the northern baltic coast, but ice was cut and exported; at the wedding of the Duke of Burgundy in 1468 we have extensive supplies being procured for the cold food.

Medicine
Very few medieval sources compare frankish and arab medicine. The amputation described by Usama was indeed a common operation until very late, but amputations were performed in the arab world as well;
I am not declaring european medicine to be superior. I am protesting the common view on western european medicine being drastically inferior to arab medicine by the time of the crusades. Cordoba had centuries of tradition compared to Salerno(and experimental medicine was uncommon even there)

For Usama's text; here is an excerpt; the text after the malpractice example:
(http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/usamah2.html)
"I have, however, witnessed a case of their medicine which was quite different from that.

The king of the Franks bad for treasurer a knight named Bernard, who (may Allah's curse be upon him!) was one of the most accursed and wicked among the Franks. A horse kicked him in the leg, which was subsequently infected and which opened in fourteen different places. Every time one of these cuts would close in one place, another would open in ancther place. All this happened while I was praying for his perdition. Then came to him a Frankish physician and removed from the leg all the ointments which were on it and began to wasb it with very strong vinegar. By this treatment all the cuts were healed and the man became well again. He was up again like a devil. Another case illustrating their curious medicine is the following: In Shayzar we had an artisan named abu-al-Fath, who had a boy whose neck was afflicted with scrofula. Every time a part of it would close, another part would open. This man happened to go to Antioch on business of his, accompanied by his son. A Frank noticed the boy and asked his father about him. Abu-al-Fath replied, "This is my son." The Frank said to him, 'Wilt thou swear by thy religion that if I prescribe to you a medicine which will cure thy boy, thou wilt charge nobody fees for prescribing it thyself? In that case, I shall prescribe to you a medicine which will cure the boy." The man took the oath and the Frank said:

Take uncrushed leaves of glasswort, burn them, then soak the ashes in olive oil and sharp vinegar. Treat the scrofula with them until the spot on which it is growing is eaten up. Then take burnt lead, soak it in ghee butter and treat him with it. That will cure him.

The father treated the boy accordingly, and the boy was cured. The sores closed and the boy returned to his normal condition of health.

I have myself treated with this medicine many who were afflicted with such disease, and the treatment was successful in removing the cause of the complaint."

Usamas conclusion is, as is his conclusion to the entire matter: Frankish medicine is curious , strange and not like his; but not necessarily insane. He is most disturbed not by their medicine but by their treatment of their women:

"The Franks are void of all zeal and jealousy. One of them may be walking along with his wife. He meets another man who takes the wife by the hand and steps aside to converse with her while the husband is standing on one side waiting for his wife to conclude the conversation. If she lingers too long for him, he leaves her alone with the conversant and goes away. "

He then cites several examples of franks being 'devoid of jealousy'.

Sanitation:
So soap wasn't common in europe? Hmmm. Soap had been around in europe since the celtic iron age and certainly did not suddenly disappear with the medieval period. Use of the soft soap was massively increased in europe in the ninth century and grew ever since; soapmaking guilds were abundant in medieval europe. HARD soap, on the other hand, was imported from the arab world in the ninth century and made in europe from the 12th.

As for bath houses, well, Paris had 300 of them in 1223; they are frequently reviled by clergymen as sources of illicit sexual encounters in later eras, and mentioned in the 'Roman du Rose' and the 'Romance of Alexander'. Saunas were extremely common in the northern world; in the 'sverrirsaga'(describing early 12th century events) some men are ambushed in the sauna and have to charge Sverre's men naked. Larger public baths were usually of roman descent; Charlemagne had one at Aachen and the Aix-les-termes of southern france is mentioned in the Inquisitorial protocols (of Montaillou) of Bishop Jaques Fornier, but new ones were also built. Bathing is presribed as healthy in the Book of Manners, the aforementioned Book of Health and illustrated in countless medieval manuscripts(the Codex Manesse and the Maciejowski Bible to name but two). There are few 11th century illustrations of bathing, but then again there are few 11th century illustrations of anything regarding private life.

The personal hygiene of europe in all likelyhood decreased in quality after the renaissance(http://www.womenshealthpc.com/11_00/pdf/816LookBack.pdf). Increased imports of perfume, increased washing of clothing and the bad reputation of the public baths led to a decrease in human cleaniness.

Immigration: We do agree. I wrote 'religious OR commercial reasons'. The land issue is of course also relevant, but mostly for the upper classes; settlers had little land in the middle east to claim; the area was more heavily populated than western europe.
Whether more time would have allowed mass emigration is uncertain but in my mind doubtful. Other areas were far more attractive for emigration. German and Scandinavian settlers went east, England wasn't fully developed until well after the crusading period, and french settlers also moved about internally. There was a lot of unfarmed land in europe in 1066, though of course this decreased with time. The middle east was already chock full.