Roads at game start

[CrabHelmet]

Yeah but the starting roads in the game are not paved roads, they are dirt/gravel roads.

Also, I highly doubt that the routes in Sweden, England and Spain were any more paved than any of the other commonly taken routes in Europe

If the starting level of road is dirt/gravel road, then almost every European location would have L1 roads to neighbours except for the absolute most mountainous or forested locations.

I agree Paradox has the representation of paved roads wrong at least; there's a real absence of paved roads in France. However, Germany had almost no paved road at all in 1337 (because almost all paved road extant at this period was Roman and the Roman road network did not extend to Germany). The sole exception was the road running from Langres to Koln.

The Via Imperii was not a physical construct. Most of the Via Imperii were dirt tracks, the most sophisticated were boardwalk. The signifcance of the Via Imperii was that it was a political construct. While travelling on roads which were considered imperial roads, travellers were guaranteed imperial protection and were not to be subject to mistreatment or unauthorised taxation or extortion by landholders. The roads were in a loose sense "policed" and kept free of bandits, making them safe compared to alternatives.

 

[zeruosi]

If these are postal routes though, what would you say is the quality of these roads that are built? Between dirt, gravel, or paved?

The majority of these routes were paved with stone slabs, as the postal system required rapid information transmission—necessitating high-quality road construction. Beyond their postal function, these thoroughfares also served as commercial arteries, facilitating the majority of population movement. The only exceptions were the routes to Ü-Tsang (Tibet), which likely consisted of gravel or dirt paths, and possibly the southern Yunnan regions near Myanmar, where roads might have been gravel or even earthen.

 

[zeruosi]

I know that modders added a chinese road in a map expansion mod for Imperator Rome, but it was quite small.

The Qin Dynasty's imperial highways (Chi Dao) extended directly from Xianyang to the Hetao region. However, beyond this main artery, Qin Shi Huang constructed numerous lesser-known roads specifically for his eastern inspection tours.

 

[Birchinjaro]

If the starting level of road is dirt/gravel road, then almost every European location would have L1 roads to neighbours except for the absolute most mountainous or forested locations.

I agree Paradox has the representation of paved roads wrong at least; there's a real absence of paved roads in France. However, Germany had almost no paved road at all in 1337 (because almost all paved road extant at this period was Roman and the Roman road network did not extend to Germany). The sole exception was the road running from Langres to Koln.

The Via Imperii was not a physical construct. Most of the Via Imperii were dirt tracks, the most sophisticated were boardwalk. The signifcance of the Via Imperii was that it was a political construct. While travelling on roads which were considered imperial roads, travellers were guaranteed imperial protection and were not to be subject to mistreatment or unauthorised taxation or extortion by landholders. The roads were in a loose sense "policed" and kept free of bandits, making them safe compared to alternatives.

Where do you read more about this?

 

[CrabHelmet]

Where do you read more about this?

The Viabundus project is a mapping project to record regular German routes from the medieval period. The blog associated with it is really good (although some entries are only in German). You can read through them here:

The viabundus Blog – Creating a digital Map of premodern Transport

www.landesgeschichte.uni-goettingen.de

 

[SAmaster]

The Qin Dynasty's imperial highways (Chi Dao) extended directly from Xianyang to the Hetao region. However, beyond this main artery, Qin Shi Huang constructed numerous lesser-known roads specifically for his eastern inspection tours.

Forgive me for not knowing a lot of Chinese geography- if I recall in the extended map mod for Imperator, there's only two short roads- some of the shortest at start date- one in southern/central china, and one close to what I think is the Shandong peninsula, running along the river.

I always found it odd that China, as one of the great ancient empires, doesn't start with a larger road network- at least connecting it's major provinces- compared to say the Egyptian and Persian, or even Indian roads at start. Though I believe the era being depicted is also in the mythic War of the Three Kingdoms era as well.

 

[SAmaster]

The majority of these routes were paved with stone slabs, as the postal system required rapid information transmission—necessitating high-quality road construction. Beyond their postal function, these thoroughfares also served as commercial arteries, facilitating the majority of population movement. The only exceptions were the routes to Ü-Tsang (Tibet), which likely consisted of gravel or dirt paths, and possibly the southern Yunnan regions near Myanmar, where roads might have been gravel or even earthen.

It should also be noted you posted Ming era maps, and the 1330's start with the Yuan. Who I believe had the worlds most complex and professional postal network, but with the use of horses. How much of the road network would you say should exist at the start date?

 

[luo]

Ah, I do have something to discuss, but someone else is better suited to address it.
@ luo

WARNING: Image bombardment.
The green lines represent China's ancient postal relay system (Yizhan Road Network). Notably, one route extends directly to Lhasa, indicating the Ming Dynasty's exercise of control over Tibet.

You're showing these maps too fast, lol
It doesn't seem like I need to supplement anymore.

 

[luo]

Forgive me for not knowing a lot of Chinese geography- if I recall in the extended map mod for Imperator, there's only two short roads- some of the shortest at start date- one in southern/central china, and one close to what I think is the Shandong peninsula, running along the river.

I always found it odd that China, as one of the great ancient empires, doesn't start with a larger road network- at least connecting it's major provinces- compared to say the Egyptian and Persian, or even Indian roads at start. Though I believe the era being depicted is also in the mythic War of the Three Kingdoms era as well.

I know the mod you mentioned, and the roads in China are indeed like this. But the main reason for this situation is that historical records show that a large number of roads were built during the establishment of the Zhou Dynasty, but early literature records of the Zhou Dynasty are very rare. At the same time, due to its long history, it is difficult to verify the specific location of these roads.

Of course, there are some exceptions, such as the road connecting Haojing (now Xi'an) and Luoyi (now Luoyang), which was an important road connecting the two capitals of the Zhou Dynasty. It is indeed surprising that this road was not included in this mod, as it is so important.

And the roads from Luoyi to the states of Song and Qi, as these routes have experienced large-scale military operations involving tens of thousands of people in history, were not included in the mod. It is highly likely that the specific location cannot be confirmed and only the direction can be determined.

As for the latter question you raised, a large-scale road network will be built during the Qin Dynasty, in the year BC221. During the IR period, China was in a chaotic era of the Spring and Autumn Period and the Warring States Period, and there was no unified large country to oversee the construction of a unified road network. The southern road in the mod should refer to the road used in the early Zhou Dynasty's large-scale conquests from Luoyi to Chu, which can be traced back to the copper mining area in the middle reaches of the Yangtze River, which was extremely important to the Shang Dynasty royal family. The roads in the Shandong region were built within the state of Qi, which was the wealthiest and most economically powerful country during the Spring and Autumn and Warring States periods.

 

[SAmaster]

I know the mod you mentioned, and the roads in China are indeed like this. But the main reason for this situation is that historical records show that a large number of roads were built during the establishment of the Zhou Dynasty, but early literature records of the Zhou Dynasty are very rare. At the same time, due to its long history, it is difficult to verify the specific location of these roads.

Of course, there are some exceptions, such as the road connecting Haojing (now Xi'an) and Luoyi (now Luoyang), which was an important road connecting the two capitals of the Zhou Dynasty. It is indeed surprising that this road was not included in this mod, as it is so important.

And the roads from Luoyi to the states of Song and Qi, as these routes have experienced large-scale military operations involving tens of thousands of people in history, were not included in the mod. It is highly likely that the specific location cannot be confirmed and only the direction can be determined.

As for the latter question you raised, a large-scale road network will be built during the Qin Dynasty, in the year BC221. During the IR period, China was in a chaotic era of the Spring and Autumn Period and the Warring States Period, and there was no unified large country to oversee the construction of a unified road network. The southern road in the mod should refer to the road used in the early Zhou Dynasty's large-scale conquests from Luoyi to Chu, which can be traced back to the copper mining area in the middle reaches of the Yangtze River, which was extremely important to the Shang Dynasty royal family. The roads in the Shandong region were built within the state of Qi, which was the wealthiest and most economically powerful country during the Spring and Autumn and Warring States periods.

Thanks for the history, most of my knowledge of China starts with the Ming, and a bit of the Yuan.

 

[strattonthebard]

For gameplay balance reasons it would make sense for China to start with a lot of roads too, it's such a large geographic area with such a high population that it should suffer from serious control issues without lots of infrastructure built up at game start

 

[SAmaster]

For gameplay balance reasons it would make sense for China to start with a lot of roads too, it's such a large geographic area with such a high population that it should suffer from serious control issues without lots of infrastructure built up at game start

To be fair, that's partly the intention with the Yuan set to collapse soon.

 

[Creamu]

To be honest if "dirt roads" or even "gravel roads" are tier 1 roads, then... most of Europe should have a dense network of them. Old roman roads (where they were preserved in decent condition) should be a tier 2 roads at the beginning of the game.

Thing is, development is supposed to be a representation of local infrastructure. And based on the fact that proximity passes through higher development areas more cheaply. Id imagine that also represents local roads networks.

 

[zeruosi]

It should also be noted you posted Ming era maps, and the 1330's start with the Yuan. Who I believe had the worlds most complex and professional postal network, but with the use of horses. How much of the road network would you say should exist at the start date?

Indeed, the Ming Dynasty's road system was almost entirely inherited from the Yuan Dynasty—given the unchanged geographical environment, these routes remained functional indefinitely. Notably, the Yuan also maintained additional road networks in the northern steppes.

As a supplementary note, this is a simplified version of the Ming Dynasty's road system—though somewhat blurred in detail.

 

[SAmaster]

Indeed, the Ming Dynasty's road system was almost entirely inherited from the Yuan Dynasty—given the unchanged geographical environment, these routes remained functional indefinitely. Notably, the Yuan also maintained additional road networks in the northern steppes.
View attachment 1339094
As a supplementary note, this is a simplified version of the Ming Dynasty's road system—though somewhat blurred in detail.
View attachment 1339095

Right, I had assumed the Ming would have expanded the road network.

 

[CrabHelmet]

Re: Chinese roads, my understanding was that most Yuan era roads were rammed earth or plank roads rather than paved (Evolution, accessibility and dynamics of road networks in China from 1600 BC to 1900 AD, Wang 2014), although this is not universal and some major roads were indeed paved. I appreciate rammed earth is a sort of middle ground for these purposes - not as durable as paved roads, but a significant step up from dirt roads. However, I don't know much about the historical reasons behind why Chinese empires made widespread use of rammed earth roads or why Europe never really used the same (this is a general construction point, really - I know Chinese walled cities and forts also made great use of rammed earth, whereas it was a relative obscurity in European fort design until the advent of the star bastion). Possibly something interesting Paradox could do with institutions there?

 

[luo]

However, I don't know much about the historical reasons behind why Chinese empires made widespread use of rammed earth roads

A question that many people may misunderstand: rammed earth does not mean using only soil, and its durability is much higher than imagined. For example, in 1662, the Dutch attempted to attack a small town along the coast of Fujian, but found that artillery could not collapse the rammed earth city walls. In the end, they had to resort to the same method as the Chinese army at the time, directly bombarding the city gates.

Another more intuitive example is the official road of the Qin Dynasty established in BC221, which, like the roads built by the Roman Empire, remains flat and well preserved until modern times, with the vast majority of sections reaching a width of 60 meters. Generally speaking, rammed earth roads are divided into multiple layers, with crushed stones or pottery shards spaced between each layer to help increase compressive strength and facilitate drainage.

There are also many advantages to rammed earth roads. Firstly, this type of road is more conducive to the movement of horses and has less wear and tear on their hooves, especially considering that most official roads also serve the purpose of conveying government orders. The basic requirement is that horses should not rest throughout the ride, and horses should be replaced multiple times at the relay station to ensure timeliness. The materials used to construct rammed earth roads are quite convenient to obtain, but the labor cost is much higher than that of stone paving (because each part requires multiple people to use giant stones to compact multiple times, and each layer of rammed earth is the same). However, in China, where labor costs are extremely low, this is actually a cheaper and more durable option compared to stone paving.

 

[CrabHelmet]

A question that many people may misunderstand: rammed earth does not mean using only soil, and its durability is much higher than imagined. For example, in 1662, the Dutch attempted to attack a small town along the coast of Fujian, but found that artillery could not collapse the rammed earth city walls. In the end, they had to resort to the same method as the Chinese army at the time, directly bombarding the city gates.

Another more intuitive example is the official road of the Qin Dynasty established in BC221, which, like the roads built by the Roman Empire, remains flat and well preserved until modern times, with the vast majority of sections reaching a width of 60 meters. Generally speaking, rammed earth roads are divided into multiple layers, with crushed stones or pottery shards spaced between each layer to help increase compressive strength and facilitate drainage.

There are also many advantages to rammed earth roads. Firstly, this type of road is more conducive to the movement of horses and has less wear and tear on their hooves, especially considering that most official roads also serve the purpose of conveying government orders. The basic requirement is that horses should not rest throughout the ride, and horses should be replaced multiple times at the relay station to ensure timeliness. The materials used to construct rammed earth roads are quite convenient to obtain, but the labor cost is much higher than that of stone paving (because each part requires multiple people to use giant stones to compact multiple times, and each layer of rammed earth is the same). However, in China, where labor costs are extremely low, this is actually a cheaper and more durable option compared to stone paving.

This is interesting. Presumably paved roads must offer some advantages over rammed earth, though, as they do appear to have been the choice for the most important sections of Chinese imperial roads. There is a suggestion in the literature that China simply had less need for the (immensely expensive) maintenance and construction of paved roads, because China's geography meant it was more easily connected by riverine travel and that where Rome built roads, China often built canals (Roads to Empire: on roadbuilding traditions in ancient Rome and early China, Christopher 2025).

 

[Gurtannon]

there needs to be road maintanance and degradation mechanic, otherwise what prevents building roads everywhere?

 

[Kotyk-durkotyk]

there needs to be road maintanance and degradation mechanic, otherwise what prevents building roads everywhere?

That sounds reasonable! To think and plan the routes for trade and military instead of "spamming" roads everywhere.
I like it.