ROTW powers

[Incompetent]

Nothing concrete here, just some ideas.

Zanj: Zanj is a natural trading nation, and their lack of nearby trading partners would drive them to explore and try to find new markets. Zanj could be a medium colonial power, with emphasis on colonising the East African coast and nearby islands. When the Europeans arrive they will envy Zanj's wealth and try to take it over, which will be a tough challenge for a country that's unused to war.

Japan: In 1419 Japan was a fragmented country. I suggest we make this even worse than vanilla by having several countries in Japan, some of which are Confucian and the rest Buddhist, with everyone getting cores on everyone else. It may well be that Japan is doomed to constant infighting or foreign domination (especially if it's still fragmented by the time great powers take an interest in it), BUT if somehow one of the daimyos manages to unify the country, Japan has the wealth and population to be a significant power. What if, instead of trying to cut themselves off from the outside world, the shoguns had engaged with it? We could make Japan's behaviour depend on which of the minors takes control, so it's a bit of a wild card - sometimes isolationist, sometimes colonial and sometimes extremely aggressive.

Sri Lanka: In real life Sri Lanka was divided, both politically and in terms of the ethnic mix of Tamils and Sinhalese. But what if the Sinhalese had stayed united, and the Tamils had never gained a foothold on the island? I see Sri Lanka as an opportunist power, one which becomes powerful by waiting for openings to arise and playing its enemies against each other rather than by brute strength. The religious and cultural divide from the mainland would make it difficult for them to become a great land power in their own right (naval power is another matter), but through deft diplomacy they could wield considerable influence over southern India. The great wealth of the island, and the fact that they are insulated from the turmoil of all the Indian minors fighting each other, would also ensure that they built up a decent tech lead compared to the Dravidians. If a strong Hindu power emerges, however, Lanka's little empire is likely to collapse as enough of an army is mustered to put an end to its meddling.

 

[MattyG]

These are certainly intriguing concepts. I know that a couple of people are interested in eventually working on the subcontinent. It has to be done one day, especially if we are going to also to China and the others. The notion that Sri Lanka is the dominant power in the south is fascinating. It could begin with one province on the mainland. No cores except for the starting province, but early leaders and monarchs of quality (which are way more important than those whorish shields). I like this one very much.

I agree on the concept for Japan, except that it sounds like a lot of work for something that will effectively mirror the vanilla Nippon - a lot of wealth and potential that can go nowhere because of internal strife. One of the earlier re-designers for Aberrated wanted to redo Korea and had some great ideas. Perhaps he/she could be persuaded back into the arena, and Korea could have conquered part of Honshu. I rather like his ideas that Korea would be one of the big regional players, albeit with virtually no cores and no sameculture provinces.

In addition to the creation of two or three Chinese medium powers, I was thinking that one of the interesting things that could be done for the China region would be to establish a bunch of single state minors like the Germans. I can see a Mecklemburg lookalike in Shanghai, a one state trading power. Taipei could be made a single state minor. And perhaps a border one-state that sits between China and Korea and has Milaccess to both and survives by having quality military (sliders max for Quality and Offensive, and some decent leaders in the first 100 years.) Events would also match the desire for the Koreans and the closest-Chinese-medium-power to maintain this 'peacekeeper'.

 

[Incompetent]

I agree on the concept for Japan, except that it sounds like a lot of work for something that will effectively mirror the vanilla Nippon - a lot of wealth and potential that can go nowhere because of internal strife.

Not quite - it would be more like vanilla Russia. Events which give RR are a game of simply waiting for the timer to run out, whereas if you have to annex your neighbours, you're the one making things happen. I think a united Japan would emerge under the AI, if only because it force-annexes 1-prov minors so readily - we might need to help the AI (but only the AI!) somewhat with BB during this period.

Korean influence over Japan is a nice twist. We could perhaps give them one Japanese province and a couple of vassals, and they would try to prevent Japanese unification.

I don't know if 1-prov minors will work in China. The trouble is, we would want the large countries to fight each other while leaving the small ones alone, but that's not how the AI behaves.

I was actually thinking with Sri Lanka that they could start with no provinces on the mainland, with the south under the rule of a fairly large Vijayanagar. But Vijay is pretty fragile, and sooner or later it will probably fall apart, leaving a mess of warring states - the perfect opportunity for Lanka. We could allow Lanka to take the very southern tip quite easily without giving them cores there: keep them as colonies, and remove the fortifications when Vijay crumbles, leading the natives to break free.

 

[Incompetent]

More on Zanj: The country of 'Zanj' we see in vanilla is rather a drastic simplification, as the region was really divided into dozens of small states. I don't propose we make Zanj a strong, unified country in Abe either, but we should still represent it as a single country. Why? Because multiple small countries in EU2 mean war, but Zanj was quite peaceful, with efforts focused on trade. You don't need a massive central bureaucracy for small groups of explorers to set off in dhows and make trading posts.

The downside of Zanj's disunity would come when it finally faced war with outsiders. Zanj should be extremely weak militarily, and if say Ireland invades, the most likely result would be parts of Zanj under Irish control, with the rest as a vassal state. It would also lack diplomatic power as the little states are unable to speak with a single voice. This could be represented by an immortal 'monarch' with suitable stats.

 

[MattyG]

Hmmmm, I smell a tasty exploit.

Juicy, peaceful, little or no military. This is being set up to be annexed by the first player around the horn.

How would you prevent the Zanj from being player-gimme?

 

[Incompetent]

Hmmmm, I smell a tasty exploit.

Juicy, peaceful, little or no military. This is being set up to be annexed by the first player around the horn.

How would you prevent the Zanj from being player-gimme?

By the fact that they are Muslim and therefore normal BB rules apply? For a player to spend 2BB a province on wrong-culture, wrong-religion fare, it doesn't just have to be well-off, it has to be super-rich like India or Japan. I'm not proposing that Zanj's provinces will be worth 40 per year each, just that Zanj will have a pretty decent income, mostly from merchants. Granada, the Caliphate and Egypt would have a slightly easier time though, so they might need some attention to balance things.

Also, Zanj's lack of good standing armies doesn't take away from the fact that the losses due to attrition for invading African countries can be horrendous, almost as bad as fighting a war in Siberia. If they still look a bit too easy, decent forts will put off all but the most determined invader.

 

[MattyG]

OK, OK, I was trying to be playful.

I also wasn't aware the Zanj were muslim, having never attacked or played them before. Thought they were Pagans.

 

[unmerged(33565)]

Nothing concrete here, just some ideas.


Sri Lanka: In real life Sri Lanka was divided, both politically and in terms of the ethnic mix of Tamils and Sinhalese. But what if the Sinhalese had stayed united, and the Tamils had never gained a foothold on the island? I see Sri Lanka as an opportunist power, one which becomes powerful by waiting for openings to arise and playing its enemies against each other rather than by brute strength. The religious and cultural divide from the mainland would make it difficult for them to become a great land power in their own right (naval power is another matter), but through deft diplomacy they could wield considerable influence over southern India. The great wealth of the island, and the fact that they are insulated from the turmoil of all the Indian minors fighting each other, would also ensure that they built up a decent tech lead compared to the Dravidians. If a strong Hindu power emerges, however, Lanka's little empire is likely to collapse as enough of an army is mustered to put an end to its meddling.

I have an entire set-up, events, and all the rest written up for Cylon (Sri lanka) and Northern India till about 1500. They are posted a little farther down in a thread called India. Go ahead and look it up and comment on it if you want. Basicly Cylon can become a sea power or a land power depending on which monarchs you get or how you succede military.

 

[unmerged(16159)]

In addition to the creation of two or three Chinese medium powers, I was thinking that one of the interesting things that could be done for the China region would be to establish a bunch of single state minors like the Germans. I can see a Mecklemburg lookalike in Shanghai, a one state trading power. Taipei could be made a single state minor. And perhaps a border one-state that sits between China and Korea and has Milaccess to both and survives by having quality military (sliders max for Quality and Offensive, and some decent leaders in the first 100 years.) Events would also match the desire for the Koreans and the closest-Chinese-medium-power to maintain this 'peacekeeper'.

This is also a pretty major cultural and historical aberration, considering the uniformity of culture, language and religion across the chinese mainland since about 200BC. 2 small nations plus the Manchu might be less unbelievable.

There are some strong ideas on the existing China thread, which I am still reading. China is a biiiiiiig project.

 

[MattyG]

This is also a pretty major cultural and historical aberration, considering the uniformity of culture, language and religion across the chinese mainland since about 200BC. 2 small nations plus the Manchu might be less unbelievable.

There are some strong ideas on the existing China thread, which I am still reading. China is a biiiiiiig project.

Absolutely it is huge. Event the projects that seem small by comparison are big. You'll find that once you starting coding stuff, nerfing the values, correcting the text, making sure of the connections. And that's just the technical side. China/Asia is as big as redoing all of Europe. It's a loooooong term project.

We may not decide to divide China culturally, just politically.