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HolisticGod

Beware of the HoG
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Jul 26, 2001
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(Placeholder. I'm watching the Phoenix/San Antonio game and getting something to eat, but it's here in case anybody wanted to get a jump on it.)

This is the AAR for the Rome Test Game , starring:

Varam as the Seleucid Emperor
Deus Irae as the (Ex-)Chief of Arverni
Zaku as the King of Macedonia
Smowz as the First Man in Carthage (and the world)
HolisticGod as the First Man in Rome (and only Rome)
Khal Drogo as the King of Egypt
Strono as the King of Pontus
Batavia as the King of Armenia

The World in 492
rome_9.jpg
 
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The Rise and Fall of the Arverni​

rome3pu3.png

The Arverni start with a civilization rating of 40% (5% more than the other tribes), iron (a resource none of the neighbouring tribes possess), and are situated close to Massilia, meaning they will be the first Gallic tribe – if they survive that long – to get to a civilization rating of 50%. An additional advantage from its position is that for the most part, the tribes to the north and Massila to the south draw the attention of rampaging barbarian hordes away from your home province. In short, the Arverni are in the best strategic position for creating a strong Gallic power.

The plan:

To become the dominant tribe of Gaul, ultimately annexing the Sequani, Aedui, Parisii, Nervii and Atrebates. The remaining 5 tribes would be kept as trading partners for each of my 5 land-locked provinces, netting a decent bonus to my income. In addition, each and every one of the 10 tribes save the first (which would be annexed right away to increase my survivability) would be forced to pay 25-50 gold up front and 2 gold in tribute in the peace treaties. The ones designated to be trading partners would be spared once they reached –150 gold and refused to pay any more tribute (giving me a CB). However, if they were designated to be expansion territories, once they were bled dry, they would have been promptly annexed. This would quite possibly have made the Arverni not just the wealthiest tribe in Gaul, but in the Mediterranean world at a very early stage in the campaign.

With the civilization spread from Massilia and Atrebates (after setting up a trade route with a civilized province), it would not have taken too long before hitting that magical 50%, enabling the Arverni to change to a better government and gradually colonise Western Europe and Britain. Gaul would have been a power to be reckoned with.

It seemed like a good plan.

The outcome:

In what must have been one of the fastest player annexations in Paradox MP history, the Arverni’s star was extinguished before it ever got a chance to rise. A very stupidly executed war against the Aedui, Lemuvices and Nervii 5-7 years into the campaign led to them occupying both my provinces while my main army was busy besieging another. I was suddenly taken back to the main menu after being eliminated from the game, not being aware that the AI was able to force a peace when you owned more than 1 province.

In any case, so ends the rather disappointing tale of the Arverni. I'm still inclined to believe that they're a viable choice in a MP campaign, provided you play a bit more carefully than I did in the critical opening moves. :)
 
I would write an AAr too, but unfortunatly, I only took 3 screens.

This is Macedonia in the beginning:
45684785md0.jpg

I decided to help my ally Egyipt, with their war against the Selecuid Empire... nothing interesting happened. I sieged 1-2 provinces, then peace was made. No gains here, maybe a few slaves from the captured provinces. Egyipt got Damascus. (or some other arabian province with a few hovels and camels, can't really remeber.)


26224343yk1.jpg

OH NOES! THE COMMIES ARE HERE! no.. wait, it's just Rome. Alliance was made with her, so we now formed Rome-Egyipt-Macedonia Axis. MWUHAHA the world will be min... ahem... ours! As you can see, the stupid Greeks will soon perish! Got a CB against them somehow(dont ask how, maybe they had some event.)so the next step: they are annexed. forgot to take screenshot. Sparta was annexed first. They couldn't understand that this is NOT SPARTAAA!

By the end of the session Macedonia was powerful!
33987006nm1.jpg

Lets hope we get more wealth, and glory in the future... or some Tiger tanks at least.
 
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Carthage​

An Introduction

Having been playing EU3 MP for the best part of the year, I like many have been looking forward toward trying the latest installment of the paradox series in the roman world.

I got the game on Wednesday and the first few days I spent learning the game and reading through the useful manual and strategy guide. The sandbox recommended single player nation recommend Macedonia was a good one to cut my teeth. I got to learn about all the facets of EU: Rome without being overwhelmed by massive wars or huge character micromanagement.

It had been discussed during the past week between EU3 playing friends whether we would set up a game, and on Friday the thread was put up and I decided to put myself down as Egypt first choice. After playing them Saturday morning, I was beginning to hanker for some human company whilst playing the game. Checking the forum I noticed Holistic Gods test game would be starting soon. I thought I would check it out, imagining all kinds of instable noob type struggles. But it proved the furthest from what I imagined it to be.

For a start the metaserver had a nice cream background that made the text easy to read. I was pleased to see players I had played with in the past like Dues Irae and Varam also signed up for this campaign as well as friendly articulate players new to me.

All this being said we did have the usual situation of mass sign up and the usual 60% turn out at start – but being unsigned up this suited me perfectly.

Some players picked their original selections, we had a cast iron Macedonia and Seculid Player, another keen on either Pontus of Armenia and fourth wishing to try his hand at a Gallic minor. Later we picked up another layer for the Pontus/Armenia area. This left three of us to flip for Rome, Carthage and Egypt. The GM HG(and host as well) fairly logically had Rome and I had the challenge of Carthage and the other player got Egypt. We were set and away we went.

We did have one early rehost and another later for mass OOS – but it did go surprisingly smoothly I am happy to report. It was a very satisfying and calm experience and highly encouraging for further MP play.


The Opening

Given the restricted area and smallish map I feel the opening moves of Rome will be fascinating in the opening few weeks. Here I will analyse the Carthage situation…

Provinces

Carthage has a large power base at the beginning. Its dominion includes almost all of non egyptian coastal Africa, three provinces in the south of Spain and all of the Islands up to and including Sicily and Malta. They have the land-locked vassal of Numidia which rather frustratingly holds two of the three horse producing provinces in Africa.

Trade – Possibly the first thing to look at in when starting any MP game for any player will be the trading situation. I started by clicking the trade map button and noted down the following breakdown of provinces.

20 provinces in total at game start:

10 of which are population boosting grain provinces (including the capital province of Carthage) ;2 all important elephant producing provinces ; 3 manpower boosting fish provinces; 2 defence boosting stone provinces; 1 wine province; 1 spices province; and 1 navy and archer producing wood province.

The main headline here is the lack of Iron or Horses. Horses indeed will be an issue for many realms but most non – African nations will have no problems finding an abundance of Iron resources. This will have to be thought about later in expansions.

Setting up the trade routes available was about a case of logistics trying to get an idea where to put supply centres for my shipping and potentially to supply my forces with a steady supply of elephants. Having a couple of stone provinces is also useful for building defensive bases in areas at risk and important to keep difficult to siege.

Finally I also considered the improvement of the civilised score of the two outlying Spanish provinces and prioritised getting those grain provinces filled.

Inevitably there are some grain provinces left over and given Carthage poor relations with all but their landlocked vassels Numadia I was not too hopeful of finding more trade – perhaps later with forums.

Military

I note that Carthage has 3 nice mixed 8K stacks around the capital province with its 3 stock troops that it has ability to build. Cannon fodder militia, ranged archers and the battering ram like elephants. Less useful is the smattering of 1k archer armies posted on virtually all island possessions.

I was rather surprised at the size of Carthage’s navy I had just 10 ships meaning it would not be easy to go for an early large scale amphibious attack.

I looked to start producing an early Spain barbarian raiding party out of archers and militia I also rather wastefully clicked for one expensive elephant unit.

The early Expansion possibilities

Well the first priority is to take Syracuse before Rome does. So I knew I would be taking two of my nicely mixed 8K stacks and invading the Epirus.

I would have to be quick as Rome is already at war with them, I hoped Rome would be distracted with the realm that owned two provinces in the Italian boot.

I then pondered briefly the possibility of taking one of the Italian boot provinces, I saw they had a Roman core on and I felt one would be easy enough to gain but would provoke Rome into full scale war for years to come.

The Greek islands of Crete and Rhodes along with the small greek one province nations look inviting but again probably too provocative to Egypt and the Macedons and with my lack of navy I felt again they would be difficult to defend.

I then looked on at the Egypt- Seleucid conflict – I could weigh down on either side of the conflict, tempting I must say to look at rushing toward Egypt’s Iron province – but it was the first MP game after all and I thought hey go easy, besides it would take the best part of a year to get to Egypt and I feared the quick peace out the other side and suddenly becoming a victim of aggression.

Indeed this halted me from looking at a possible attack on future rival Rome – hoping perhaps to aid the Epirus and boot Italy realm turn the heat on Italy.

Again I thought go easy and also it would not be a trivial to get a CB like it is the AI.

Plenty of colonial expansion available on the interior of Africa there is an important Horse province. Mauritiana is also close to fulfilling the colonisation requirements with the key resource of wood to aid a naval and archers building program.

Characters


The program does a good job of putting the best people in the best places at the beginning. I had three pretty useful generals for my attacking forces and plenty of loyal 5+ finesse governors. I did look to see for the uber high finesse high charisma character for possible assassinations or for a governor on Syracuse.

I played about with my researchers giving the best two to construction and land tech improvements.

Opening ten years – Taking Syracuse, harassing barbarians and some surprising turn of events.

A CB was gained and Syracuse was taken in short order – strangely Epirus fled Sicily, but proved difficult to take their capital on Greece landing with a maximum of 10 troops against 8 ready and waiting commandos. Nether-the-less after spamming the AI with the peace deal it in typical AI style turned round no I have a better idea I will offer you the same deal instead.

My Spanish barbarian smasher comprising of archers and militia was found to be somewhat weak due to the lack of martially skilled commanders. Meanwhile colonies were established in the depths of Africa increasing my wood and spice supplies but even more important gaining me access to some horses.

Carthage kept quiet on its external diplomacy and watched as they jostled for position in the East. Our position with extra grain stockpiles soon peaked the interest of the core Macedonian nation. We saw no reason to refuse their trade when they offered the some of their excess Iron supplies.

This led to wide ranging army reforms as Cavalry and Heavy infantry were brought into our forces and Militia largely removed. Our navy likewise got and increase of focus as larger fleets were commissioned.

The next ten – teetering on the brink of cival war and the blocs form.

The smacking of African and Spanish barbarians had raised two popular and politically aware rivals for the leader of Carthage Hannibal. Both had control of significant loyal armies and despite triumphs being held in their honour still had eyes on a bigger prize. Action needed to be taken to eliminate these pretenders as they were both assassinated by one of Hannibal’s strongest family members.

However families of the killed men many of whom were governors of some of Carthage’s key provinces were most upset by the murders and were quickly voicing their disapproval.

Hannibal could ill afford to assassinate more nobility with the massive realm under his possession.

The threat of civil war was a distinct possibility for some time, but as time wore on the patriarchs of each family moved on to the next life and the crimes were forgotten.

The leader of Carthage began to look on at how his competitors were doing and was rather interested to note the dangerous alliance blocs that had formed between the great powers of the world.

Essentially these blocs can be split into three factions:

a) the WRE – Rome, Macedonia and Egypt: Egypt seems to be holding the alliance leader card here and obviously is Carthage’s most dangerous threat. Egypt has played a masterful first session cutting off Seleucids silk route, taking the greek islands and also finding a colonisation route in Greece. Macedonia has been friendly toward us establishing lucrative trade routes. Meanwhile Rome has been quite hostile in its words, and has had difficulty with barbarians. It seems surprising to Carthage that the Macedonians and the Romans would allow Egypt to dominate them in this alliance structure. Rome carry the additional threat of Messalina.


b) The ERE – Seleucid Empire, Armenia and Pontus: Seleucid lost the opening war, but rather than rampage North it decided to consolidate in Anatolia. Armenia and Pontus have expanded quickly around the Black sea. One wonders what is now the fate of this alliance with its fast expansion at its limit. Will it come pouring over the Bosporus? Will it focus on regaining the Seleucid silk route and threaten Egypt? Will it go to the sea and start to sail off at realms further area?

c) Then there is Carthage, standing proudly but lonely in the west. Perhaps waiting in the wings to decisively come down on one side or another…

Arguably the WRE have the strongest overall military power and economy, but they are pincered by two potential enemies on both sides. Carthage to the west and the ERE to the east. It shall be interesting to see how it develops.
 
(This is the first AAR I ever wrote and English isn't my first language but I hope it isn't to bad as I tried to make a nice AAR)


Armenia

165px-Artaxiad_standard.gif


rome_1.jpg

The situation of Armenia at the start

The first thing the Armenian king Mithranes did was proposing an alliance to the large Seleuciud Empire in the south so that he would have a powerfull friend . An alliance with the Seleucids also meant that he could now safely try to expand to the north.

The foolish King of the colchis killed a peacefull envoy of the king. (they claimed that he tried to assasinate theire best general wich is untrue ofcourse) So Mithranes had the perfect excuse to expand his influence in the north. And so war was declared . Ibero granted the kings army's military acces so he could pass their lands to get to Colchis. Colchis was allready involved in a war against the bosporan empire and pontus . Mithranes had to be fast to make sure that Colchis would be his and so a second army was also send to conquer Colchis before The bosporan's or the Pontians could.

The war was going well . But in the middle of the war a message reached the King. Pontus has had a change of power and now a very capable man at the head of it instead of the dumb old king who couldn't even beat Colchis and so was no treath to Armenia (Strono joined the games as pontus) This news worried Mithranes a bit but to mithranes relieve Pontus didn't seem to have any intentions of expanding into Colchis and they signed a peace. Not soon after that Colchis has lost 2/3 of their territory to Armenia and was made into a tribute state.

rome_4.jpg

The Situation after the war against Colchis

Soon after the war Mithranes suddenly died and left his only 4 year old son Ara to the throne. Because Ara was only 4 years old the country would be run by his mother Vashti untill Ara would be old enough to rule Armenia himself.

The first thing Vashti tried to arrange was a agreement between Pontus and Armenia as Pontus could become a potential treath for the expension ambitions of Armenia . It was agreed that Pontus would leave the area East of the Rhoxolani Tribe alone while Armenia wont expand to the west of it.

Not long after the agreement Armenia and Pontus allied with eachother .With Pontus allready being allied to the Selleucids a large and powerfull alliance was born in the east. Vashti was glad to know that most of Armenia's borders are now safe.

After a few years of peace a messager from Pontus arrived, stating that they had trouble with Ibero assasin's slaying theire generals and goveners. Since the Ibero where in Armenia's spear of influence Pontus asked Vashti to take care of them. Vashti deemed it neccasary to absorb the Ibero in the armenia empire to stop theire assasins and so she declared war on them.

Armenia also agreed to Pontus that they could get the west most province wich is Iron producing in exchange for setting the Rhoxolani province in the Armenian spear of influence . Ibero was no match for the combined Armenian Pontian Army and was swiftly annexed.

But Vashti still wanted the whole eastern black sea area secure. So not long after the war with the Ibero she once again declared war now upon the Bosporan empire theire allies Rhoxolani honourd theire alliance . And Pontus joined the war on the side of Armenia. The war didn't begin as planned as one army had to first repel a large barbarian Invasion . But as soon as they where destroyed and the second Armenian army joined the first the bosporan empire was quickly conquerd. As where the Rhoxolani and peace was signed . Pontus would get the Crimea while Armenia would reduce the Bosporan empire to a one province minor tribute state. And thus securing the east black sea region.


rome_6.jpg

The black sea region after the wars of Vashti

It remains uncertain what Armenia is going to do now King Ara is old enough to reign and not having much room for expension left..................
 
The Seleucid Empire, 474-492 AUC

rome_1.jpg

The total expanse of the Seleucid Empire, 474 AUC.

Starting Situation
The Seleucid Empire begins the game with a tremendous 36 provinces, nearly twice as many as the second largest nation (Carthage). With provinces come resources, and the Seleucids certainly possess a wide array: 14 grain, 3 horses, 3 wine, 3 wood, 3 stone, 6 spices, 2 elephants, 1 fish, 1 iron. Right from the start, I already have the means to produce all of the available troop types. Of course, all the elephant and horse provinces are located on the very eastern edge of the map, a world apart from the western end of the empire at the shores of the Aegean.

Despite my size, I'm not the biggest guy around in all respects. My state culture is Greek, which is found in a total of 4 of my 36 provinces. What does that mean? Well, aside from a 30% loss in tax income (combined with an extra 20% due to wrong religion in most provinces), it means that Seleucid manpower is far, far below its potential maximum -- the thousand nations of the Persian Empire seem tragically unwilling to die in the name of their Greek masters. So our manpower is a bit higher than the likes of Macedonia and Armenia, but dwarfed by the other great powers of Carthage, Rome, and most significantly, Egypt.

Speaking of my fine Egyptian friends, I am fortunate enough to begin the game at war with them. As you can see on the map above, our empires border one another in two fronts: one in Anatolia, and one in the Levant along the Judean-Phoenician border. Aside from the previously mentioned manpower advantage (200,000 vs my 40,000), the Egyptians also possess total naval superiority -- where my fleet is comprised of only six ships, theirs is over twenty ships strong.

The Opening War
As soon as the game began, Armenia offered me an alliance. I had been quite concerned about an Armenian-Egyptian alliance, I was more than happy to secure my northern border. Attempts to negotiate a similar alliance with Macedonia were met with silence, which was troubling. Anyway, the war then began on a good note as Egypt failed an assassination attempt and I in turn succeeded in killing their best general. Following this, I won a few minor victories, began laying siege to their Anatolian provinces, and launched an attack into Judea. That's when everything began to fall apart. The Egyptians used their naval power to land significant reinforcements in Anatolia, routing my armies there and forcing me to pull another army away from the Judean front in order to defend my own provinces. Even as the southern front stalemated, Anatolia was becoming a losing situation for me as the Egyptians landed even more soldiers in the area. Finally, my Anatolian campaign collapsed when Macedonia declared war on me and landed several thousand soldiers in Lydia in support of Egypt. My manpower was now half depleted and Macedonia was still refusing to talk to me, so I opted not to delay the inevitable and decided to surrender.

Egypt was considerate enough to spare me further humiliation and agreed to peace in exchange for the entirely worthless province of Damascus. Wrong culture, wrong religion, low tax base, why would I possibly want to hold onto Damascus? Well, it was a pivotal part of what would have eventually been the Silk Route, and then there was also the minor issue of it being my only source of iron. The latter was fortunately resolved through a trade agreement with Armenia that resulted in a new imported supply for fueling the recruitment of new heavy infantry.

Peace in Our Time
Actually, the first thing I did once the war was over was start a new one, this time against the mighty empire of Pergamon, whose sole province just happened to be one of my cores. The war was over within months, and Pergamon was annexed to my empire. As a province of both Greek culture and religion, Pergamon was a welcome addition as it provided me with both additional manpower and its full tax income. Following that minor gain, I was determined to focus on peaceful development, which is exactly what I did for the rest of the game.

Unfortunately, the problem with the slow tech rate meant that my superior research abilities were of little use as I never managed to discover any technology, so I couldn't actually build any province improvements, but my governors did successfully convert the provinces of Edessa and Tabae to Greek culture. I also colonized the provinces of Arabia and Dumah, bringing an end to the small strip of uncolonized territory between Egypt and Seleucia.

When Pontus was taken over by a player, Armenia quickly negotiated an alliance with them, and going along with the concept that the friend of my friend is my friend, I followed along and we formed a three-way alliance. Given their relative size, my allies were a bit more eager to expand than I was, and they went off on a mad conquest spree of everything to their north. By the time the session was over, they had nearly exhausted their source of easy expansion and completely depleted their manpower in the process. My own manpower was kept quite low by the endless military buildup necessary to keep pace with Egypt.

Closing Thoughts
The session ended with two clearly defined alliances: the western alliance of Egypt, Rome, and Macedonia, the eastern alliance of the Seleucids, Armenia, and Pontus. The western alliance is clearly in a stronger position, with a massive advantage in manpower (350,000+ vs... 40,000), a much larger naval presence, a significant economic advantage, and better opportunities for expansion. Indeed, whatever security the eastern alliance offers its members comes at the price of limiting their options for growth. Finally, there is Carthage, a major power in all regards, firmly independent and at the head of its very own Non-Aligned Movement (other members include Numidia and Suebi). Should a conflict develop between the two alliances, Carthage would be in position to play a decisive role either way.
 
You were proposing an alliance to me? I never noticed. I had a CTD early in the game, so I was not playing for 10 minutes or so.

I just say this, so you know, I'm not an ass who don't answer to an other player:)
 
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Zaku said:
You were proposing an alliance to me? I never noticed. I had a CTD early in the game, so I was not playing for 10 minutes or so.

I just say this, so you know, I'm not an ass who don't answer to an other player:)

Yeah, it was before you crashed -- before we unpaused at the start, actually. Maybe you just missed it.. or maybe I accidentally sent it to the wrong person? Who knows?
 
Great a MP AAR. I hope you guys keep this up. It's really fascinating to see human minds pitted against each other. There does seem to be a lack of playable countries for M games. Pontus en Armenia are really at the mercy of Seulicid for example.
 
excellent AAR ;)

Why do the Seleucid have such a low manpower compared to Egypt??? 40,000 to 200,000 seems too much for me :eek: .

What about using auxiliaries in the war vs Egypt? I guess Seleucids should still have higher income. Also probably you didn't choose the right allies... I mean Armenia and Pontus are natural expansion areas for the Seleucids. Maybe an instant alliance with Carthage would have been better since Carthage can stop Egypt.
 
lucaluca said:
What about using auxiliaries in the war vs Egypt? I guess Seleucids should still have higher income. Also probably you didn't choose the right allies... I mean Armenia and Pontus are natural expansion areas for the Seleucids. Maybe an instant alliance with Carthage would have been better since Carthage can stop Egypt.

Egypt's income is actually the highest in the game right now, although mine was slightly higher when the game started. My alliance with Armenia was initially driven out of concern of what would happen if they allied with Egypt instead; all those wrong-culture provinces that make up the eastern Seleucid empire are of Armenia's religion and culture group, so they could have had a lot to gain from war with me. The alliance with Pontus is much harder to rationalize, as Armenia has been locked into a corner and I could have really used Pontus's manpower-rich Greek provinces, not to mention the Black Sea Toll.
 
Varam said:
Egypt's income is actually the highest in the game right now, although mine was slightly higher when the game started. My alliance with Armenia was initially driven out of concern of what would happen if they allied with Egypt instead; all those wrong-culture provinces that make up the eastern Seleucid empire are of Armenia's religion and culture group, so they could have had a lot to gain from war with me. The alliance with Pontus is much harder to rationalize, as Armenia has been locked into a corner and I could have really used Pontus's manpower-rich Greek provinces, not to mention the Black Sea Toll.

Oh it's very though then. Egypt seems the actual superpower... But why in single player Seleucids fare so well according to many posters? Maybe they look strong but they are easy to beat in reality.

Anyways, you are still in time for dropping that alliance and join the Carthage one. You'll be protected from Egypt and from Macedonia as well, since Rome is allied with Macedonia and Macedonia dowing you would mean total war. And you can destroy Armenia and Pontus by yourself without calling Carthage into the war. :)

EDIT: is it the silk route actually in the game or are you roleplaying?
 
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Egypt does seem quite powerful, but I suspect this is to balance its poor defensive position. It's in the the unique situation of sharing direct land borders with two of the other major powers, whereas everyone else is afforded at least some measure of protection by the sea.

The Silk Route is actually in the game as a triggered modifier. It grants an 8% bonus to trade income, but it doesn't become available until the final century of the game so it's not exactly a huge loss.
 
The major issue the AI for Egypt in the Egypt vs Seluacid war is that Egypt start out with much less troops and it is really one dimensional in its attacking strategy.

It never ceases to amaze me how quickly AI manages to reduce high manpower nations down to 0 incredibly quickly. I get the impression that players will take far more care of their precious manpower as with barbarians about (admittedly a bit of a non issue for Egypt) it is difficult to actually replenish it.

What was interesting about this situation was Khul's outflanking naval strategy and bringing fellow successor state Macedonia into play. Selaucid could try to tempt Carthage into the war, but of course Carthage is likely to be eyeing up disruption of the Roman expansion. Besides Carthage, would enter not necessirily to save the Seleucids but for its own greed, the tempting Iron province just in egyptian borders.
 
lucaluca said:
Oh it's very though then. Egypt seems the actual superpower... But why in single player Seleucids fare so well according to many posters? Maybe they look strong but they are easy to beat in reality.

If AI knew how to play it could destroy Seleucid empire in every war imaginable. Their manpower is about five times as high. Even with good use of troops you can probably be sieging Alexandria before your manpower runs out for Seleucids and they have about 100k left. If you have the balls to grind it out, the outcome is pretty clear in my opinion.

Besides that the Seleucids seem to get the civil war in every game pretty soon but I haven't seen Egypt struck by it yet. I'd guess that in multiplaying game the Seleucids need the alliance with Carthage or they are screwed.