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chegitz guevara said:
I probably should have titled this thread, the Safavids and Iran.

Yes, for now I'm basing this off of Savory, but I'll probably grab the volume of the Cambridge history of Iran dealing with the Safavids (and the Sheep and Timurids) as well.

I haven't gotten as afar as the Afgan invasion, but in my mind, the Safavids and Iran were two different entities. The former was a Turkish & Iranian state (and at first just Turkish), the later was just Iranian. I think they should have seperate tags. Instead of being Persia at first, they'll be the Safavids. After the Afgan invasion, they'll become Persia or Iran, depending on what name we decide to use.

Hmm, between the capture of Isfahan by the Afghans (1722) and the final victory of the Qajars (1795) Persia was divided and in an almost constant state of civil war excepting the brutal reign of Nadir Shah. Although we should certainly finish the Safavids first, I would propose following the extinction of the Safavids to divide Persia once more with a Qajar tag to the northwest and a Zand tag to the southeast (this only uses one more tag as one of these states can make use of PER). As to the cultures of the Safavid state I think they deserve Turcoman instead of Turkish as they drew their support from the Qizilbash and used their popularity with the Turcoman as anti-Ottoman weapon. In general, I favor using "Turkish" to refer only to Anatolian Turks (or at least urbanized Turks) while using "Turcoman" to refer to the culture of the eastern Anatolian semi-nomadic groups. I'd even like to give "Azeri" (the Turkish of the Safavids) its very own culture tag.
 
I'm ambivalent on splitting Eastern Antaolian Turks off into turkmen / turcoman / etc. While the nomadic Turks were very definately unruely had difficult for the Ottomans to control, that had to do more with religious differences and the Ottomans centralization. As well, these nomads lived thoughout both Anatolia and the Balkans. When Uncle Mustafa, revolted in 1421, he was supported by the Rumelian nomadic Turks. There's a good case to be made either way.

On the other hand, they weren't all that controlable for the Safavids, either, continualing assassinating Isma'il's Iranian vizirs and then revolting and trying to seize power after his death.

And yet, in both states, these nomads were the foundation of the military power.
 
Shi'a provinces

Okay, I got a list of Shi'a provinces in Timurid Iran. :D

Provinces (using EU II names): Awhaz, Khorasan, Tabriz, and Tabaristan.

Source: The Cambridge History of Iran, vol. 6.

BTW, Mushah'shah' was not the name of a country, but of a Shi'ite sect which ruled the area, kinda like the Safavids.
 
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It prolly should. The region isn't known as Arabistan for nothing...
 
According to my readings, the independence of Mazandaran ended before the beginning of the game. So says The Cambridge History of Iran. So say we all.

We should get more info on this statelet. It may need to be axed.

Here's a link which has Mazandaran being conquered by Timur.
http://www.iranian.ws/7000-6.htm
Here's another. Mazandaran was conquered in 1380.
http://encyclopedia.lockergnome.com/s/b/Timeline_of_Islamic_history_14th_Century

So we can axe Mazandaran and take the HSA tag for the Safavids. Elbistan prov will go to the Timurids at start.
 
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chegitz guevara said:
According to my readings, the independence of Mazandaran ended before the beginning of the game. So says The Cambridge History of Iran. So say we all.

We should get more info on this statelet. It may need to be axed.

Here's a link which has Mazandaran being conquered by Timur.
http://www.iranian.ws/7000-6.htm
Here's another. Mazandaran was conquered in 1380.
http://encyclopedia.lockergnome.com/s/b/Timeline_of_Islamic_history_14th_Century

So we can axe Mazandaran and take the HSA tag for the Safavids. Elbistan prov will go to the Timurids at start.

Actually I was going to suggest axing Mazandaran for gameplay reasons but I was just going to do that with the unveiling of the new Timurid events....(hopefully this weekend)

They were a Timurid client state. I mean Timur conquered a lot of shit, but then lost it. They were just a particular vassal of the Timurids...however they cause to many problems so I was going to suggest their removal.
 
chegitz guevara said:
According to my readings, the independence of Mazandaran ended before the beginning of the game. So says The Cambridge History of Iran. So say we all.

We should get more info on this statelet. It may need to be axed.

Here's a link which has Mazandaran being conquered by Timur.
http://www.iranian.ws/7000-6.htm
Here's another. Mazandaran was conquered in 1380.
http://encyclopedia.lockergnome.com/s/b/Timeline_of_Islamic_history_14th_Century

So we can axe Mazandaran and take the HSA tag for the Safavids. Elbistan prov will go to the Timurids at start.
Currently(in the not yet released 1.2 rather), I have no Mazandaran at the start in my mod, and they later appear when the Tims fall apart in 1468. I did this because I read that mazandaran was indpendent from the Persians for some time and they fought them too. I read it on some Mazandaran website. Is this accurate?
 
Well, Mazandaran was not incorporated by the Safavids until the 16th Century, but that doesn't necessarily mean they were independent. The Uzbegs were the other major power in the region, and Mazandaran could well have been under their loose control. Unfortunately, Mazandaran didn't rate important enough to be mentioned in any detail in the Cambridge History.

Savory, on the other hand, has Isma'il conquering Mazandaran in 1503-4. The Qara Qoyunulus and the Aq Qoyunlus both controled the province as well.

Interestingly (but unrelated to the discussion), the former ruling dynasty of Mazandaran, the Sayyids, were Shias of the same sect that the Musha'sha were.

Mazandaran was one of MKJ's babies, IIRC, so I'd like his comments.
 
chegitz guevara said:
Well, Mazandaran was not incorporated by the Safavids until the 16th Century, but that doesn't necessarily mean they were independent. The Uzbegs were the other major power in the region, and Mazandaran could well have been under their loose control. Unfortunately, Mazandaran didn't rate important enough to be mentioned in any detail in the Cambridge History.

Savory, on the other hand, has Isma'il conquering Mazandaran in 1503-4. The Qara Qoyunulus and the Aq Qoyunlus both controled the province as well.

Interestingly (but unrelated to the discussion), the former ruling dynasty of Mazandaran, the Sayyids, were Shias of the same sect that the Musha'sha were.

Mazandaran was one of MKJ's babies, IIRC, so I'd like his comments.

There was a reason I chimed in. I pushed for Mazandaran's inclusion and on many occasions fought off people who wanted to remove it.

It was independent during the period, as it isn't exactly a region that anyone would have really wanted. If I recall correctly, its mountains served to keep it safe, as they divide it up into many tiny valleys. At a few points, various Timurid princes used it as a safe haven and then left it behind to take over Khorasan (not all of them being successful of course). That being said, I am now for axing it, as it does cause to many problems in the region. Too often it becomes bloated in size which is just not desirable as there isn't any way that Mazandaran could have had enough manpower to conquer and control even a handful of troops.
 
I meant as in, the Reformation events trigger off the Reformation. Why not have these events trigger off the formation of a Shi'ite Iran. Iran could get an event about them being Shi'ite, and how good that is, or whatever, and that event is the trigger for the Shi'ite conversion events.
 
Posting this stuff here in this linked thread, so that it won't be lost.

-Added extra conditions to Acquisition of Iraq(PER) to allow Safavids to inherit Iraq even if they didn't have the Victory at Alma-Qulaq event(PER). Also expanded the possibility of firing by 7 years.

-Increased date range so that Ismail of the Safavids event (AKK) can happen anywhere from 1500 to 1510 for the Ak Koyunlu (largest stumbling block as currently sequence only had one day that it could be started on. :eek:o)

-Added new version of Ismail's Ambition that fires in 1510, in case the AKK didn't have Ismail of the Safavids.

-Added new version of Ismail's Ambition that can fire starting 1501 if the AKK doesn't exist. (Safavid Persia will still have trouble starting but gets more goodies than it does now, if it revolts in a AKK-less world)


-Perhaps there could be a global event sequence that allows Persia to form regardless of who owns the provinces? (something to think about)

Code:
event = {

	id = 103010

	trigger = {

		NOT = { exists = PER }

	}

	random = no

	country = AKK

	name = "Ismail of the Safavids"

	desc = "In August of 1501, Sheikh Ismail of the Safavids departed from Erzincan with the goal of securing äirvan in order to establish a Safavid state.  Despite their superior equipment and numbers, the army of äirvan found itself defeated by the religious zeal of Ismail's followers. After his success in Sirvan, Ismail moved to conquer the castle of Gulistan. Having caught wind of the Sheikh's plans, Alwand, ruler of the northeastern tribes of the Ak Koyunlu decided to meet this foe on the battlefield"

	style = 2

	date = { day = 1 month = december year = 1500 }

	offset = 0

	deathdate = { day = 1 month = december year = 1510 }

	action_a ={ 

		name = "Most unfortunate"

		command = { type = revolt which = 487 }

		command = { type = revolt which = 487 }

		command = { type = revolt which = 487 }

		command = { type = revolt which = 487 }

		command = { type = revolt which = 473 }

		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }

		command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 487 value = 10 }

		command = { type = desertion which = 487 value = 7000 }

		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 3000 }

		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 3000 }

	}

}

# Ismail's Ambition

event = {

	id = 254303
	trigger = {

		NOT = { event = 103010 }
		exists = AKK

	}

	random = no 

	country = PER

	name = "Ismail's Ambition"

	desc = "In August of 1501, Sheikh Ismail of the Safavids departed from Erzincan with the goal of securing Sirvan in order to establish a Safavid state.  Despite their superior equipment and numbers, the army of Sirvan found itself defeated by the religious zeal of Ismail's followers. After his success in Sirvan, Ismail moved to conquer the castle of Gulistan. Having caught wind of the Sheikh's plans, Alwand, ruler of the northeastern tribes of the Ak Koyunlu decided to meet this foe on the battlefield.  Unfortunately for Alwand, his armies were outmatched when his 'superior' forces encountered those of Ismail. Alwand's defeat at Shurur, allowed 15 year old Ismail to march victoriously into Tabriz and finally found the Safavid state. Meanwhile Alwand retreated to Diyarbakir in hopes of gathering a new force."

	style = 2
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1511 }

	offset = 0

	deathdate = { day = 1 month = december year = 1520 }

	action_a ={

		name = "We shall be unstoppable!"

		command = { type = INF which = -2 value = 10000 }

		command = { type = INF which = -1 value = 5000 }

		command = { type = CAV which = -3 value = 2500 }

		command = { type = INF which = -1 value = 5000 }

		command = { type = CAV which = -3 value = 2500 }

		command = { type = CAV which = -1 value = 2500 }

		command = { type = war which = AKK }

		command = { type = war which = IRA }

		command = { type = war which = U03 }

		command = { type = cash value = 500 }

		command = { type = relation which = IRA value = -400 }

		command = { type = relation which = AKK value = -400 }

		command = { type = relation which = U03 value = -400 }

		command = { type = sleepevent which = 103010 } # AKK
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 254304 } # PER
	}

}


# Ismail's Ambition

event = {

	id = 254304
	trigger = {
		NOT = { exists = AKK }

	}

	random = no 

	country = PER

	name = "Ismail's Ambition"

	desc = "In August of 1501, Sheikh Ismail of the Safavids departed from Erzincan with the goal of securing Sirvan in order to establish a Safavid state.  Despite their superior equipment and numbers, the army of Sirvan found itself defeated by the religious zeal of Ismail's followers. After his success in Sirvan, Ismail moved to conquer the castle of Gulistan. Emboldened by this victory, Ismail dreamed of conquering all of Iran."

	style = 2
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1501 }

	offset = 0

	deathdate = { day = 1 month = december year = 1520 }

	action_a ={

		name = "We shall be unstoppable!"

		command = { type = INF which = -2 value = 10000 }

		command = { type = INF which = -1 value = 5000 }

		command = { type = CAV which = -3 value = 2500 }

		command = { type = INF which = -1 value = 5000 }

		command = { type = CAV which = -3 value = 2500 }

		command = { type = CAV which = -1 value = 2500 }

		command = { type = cash value = 500 }

		command = { type = relation which = -1 value = -100 }

		command = { type = relation which = -1 value = -100 }

		command = { type = relation which = -1 value = -100 }

		command = { type = sleepevent which = 103010 } # AKK
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 254303 } # PER
	}

}



#Acquisition of Iraq

event = {

	id = 254302

	trigger = { 

		exists = IRA

		OR = { 
			event = 254301
			AND = {
				NOT = { exists = AKK }
				owned = { province = 531 data = -1 } #Hamadan

				owned = { province = 488 data = -1 } #Kirkuk
			}

		}

	}

	random = no 

	country = PER

	name = "Acquisition of Iraq"

	desc = "In the summer of 1508, Ismail sent an envoy to Barik Beg, then the governor of Iraq for Sultan Murad.  Barik Beg allegedly accepted the Sh'ia as a symbol of his submission to Shah Ismail.  However, when Ismail marched on the city in person, Barik Beg and Sultan Murad fled, effectively ending Murad's five year rule. Ismail ordered an execution of all the clansmen in the city, ostensibly in retribution for their desecration of Safavid regalia."

	style = 2

	date = { day = 1 month = august year = 1508 }

	offset = 15

	deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1515 }

	action_a ={

		name = "We shall teach them a lesson!"

		command = { type = inherit which = IRA }

		command = { type = vp value = 50 }

		command = { type = population which = 489 value = -3000 }

	}

}
 
Safavids should have turkish culture. The Safavids themselves where turkish, their army was mostly turkish, their capital was in turkish populated territory, they had support/supported the turks of eastern anatolia, their shahs wrote books in turkish. etc.etc.etc.


I think the area woudl be better served if Safavids lost Afghani and gained turkish instead.