Saturday Building - 27th of July 2024

[Sulphurologist]

Would be cool if countries could either build irrigation (more food) or watermills (more production) on rivers, depending on geography/climate, which would represent the focus on irrigation in Monsoon Asia, as well as the focus on watermills in Western Europe. Not sure how that could be modded in, though.

Considering the modifiers I think the irrigation building could also represent parcel drainage in NW-Europe to stabilise the groundwater table in wet periods. It works the other way around obviously, but has a similar effect where you can increase the surface area of arable land with increased yields on those spots.

In any case, most water mills were built on cuts along river meanders, and do not occupy the same space in the landscape as irrigation. In that regard I don't see a whole lot of sense to make them mutually exclusive per sé, but setting up boundary conditions for both seems logical.

 

[Mef]

In any case, most water mills were built on cuts along river meanders, and do not occupy the same space in the landscape as irrigation. In that regard I don't see a whole lot of sense to make them mutually exclusive per sé, but setting up boundary conditions for both seems logical.

"China’s feudal society not only stipulated the order in which water resources are used, but also imposed some
restrictions on the scale and time of the application of water mills. According to the “Shuibushi” of the Tang
Dynasty, “Water mills could be used from August the 30th to January the first in next year. For the rest of the
time, the government sealed water mills under the sluice gate. But when the seals were relieved, they were first
to use for the irrigation.” It could be seen that water mills were allowed for use in only four months each year in
Tang Dynasty. During the Ming and Qing Dynasties, according to the “Tongli Canal Book” excerpted from
“Water Conservation in Hongli County”: “Water mills in the villages had been abandoned for a long time due to
the impermanence of the canal water. And it won’t be restored. Offenders would be investigated.” It could be
seen that during the Ming and Qing Dynasties, it was forbidden to rebuild machines that run by water. In
addition, the “Tongli Canal Book” also limited the time of the use of water mills. “The use of the water mills in
each canal were personal interests. Water conservancy was related to the lives of people. It was planned to stop
the water mills from the beginning of March to the end of September every year. And during November to
February, it was leisure time for farming. As were shown in advance every year. Violators would be punished
severely.” "
Source (Edit: fixed source link)

So at least in China there was a clear conflict between irrigation and watermills.

 

[perceval350]

Shouldn't this also affect the production of crops that aren't food, like fiber crops and cotton?

 

[MegaVHS]

Irrigations should be a manpower intensive endeavour....

 

[FreeLancer8A]

This building can be multiple levels? So you can stack the food production bonus?

 

[Melhk54321]

how does population capacity work? I assumed population would just have a soft cap based on food producton and disease (more people = more disease and thus population decline) but an actual cap seems kinda bad in my opinion.

 

[Fzfghfzg]

how does population capacity work? I assumed population would just have a soft cap based on food producton and disease (more people = more disease and thus population decline) but an actual cap seems kinda bad in my opinion.

Quoting TT17:
Population Capacity
Each location has a population capacity which depends on quite a lot of factors. The core of it is vegetation, topography and climate, while the amount of buildings and development increases it as well. If your population is higher than its current capacity, then there is a very large impact on its migration attraction and population growth.

While there are no restrictions on how many peasants, slaves or tribesmen there can be in a single location, the amount of upper class pops there can be is limited, and depends on what infrastructure there exists for that type of pop. Of course, if their estates have money, they tend to want to construct buildings that increase how many they are to further increase their power in the country.

There are reasons why you want upper class pops, and not just always creating an egalitarian “all are peasants” society, and that is when the capital economy developing during this era depends heavily on burghers, so you want to have a fair amount of those. You also want clergy of your national religion as they will help with stability, and having nobles of proper culture will help with your diplomacy and warfare.



TLDR:

• population has a capacity that´s based on vegetation, topography, climate, the local number of buildings and development
• only the "upper class pops" are capped, there are no restrictions on "lower class pops" (peasants, slaves or tribesmen)
• most buildings that produce "manufactured Goods" (e.g. Cannons, Jewelry, likely Cloth and Glass etc.) require upper class pops, so the cap mostly limits your "indusrtial output"
• if you exeed the cap, the pop growth get´s penalized and pops are more likely to migrate away

Edit: It seems I´ve misunderstood the second paragraph I quoted.
I initally read it as "you can have unlimited lower class pops + the popcap worth of upper class pops"
Rereading it I think it is rather meant as "if the popcap in a location is 10,000 you can only have 10,000 Pops (no matter the class). How many of those are upper class is determined by buildings that employ upper class pops."

So if a location has a popcap of 10,000 and the only building there is a marketplace, said location can have 9,500 lower class pops and 500 Burghers.

 

[bokorthedust]

Edit: It seems I´ve misunderstood the second paragraph I quoted.
I initally read it as "you can have unlimited lower class pops + the popcap worth of upper class pops"
Rereading it I think it is rather meant as "if the popcap in a location is 10,000 you can only have 10,000 Pops (no matter the class). How many of those are upper class is determined by buildings that employ upper class pops."

So if a location has a popcap of 10,000 and the only building there is a marketplace, said location can have 9,500 lower class pops and 500 Burghers.

I was just about to start writing a reply when I got to this part. This is also how I interpret it, upper class pops are promoted to fill in their capacity which is created by buildings, and the peasants procreate until the overall pop capacity of the location is reached, then it starts to plateau.

 

[Sebroar]

Edit: It seems I´ve misunderstood the second paragraph I quoted.
I initally read it as "you can have unlimited lower class pops + the popcap worth of upper class pops"
Rereading it I think it is rather meant as "if the popcap in a location is 10,000 you can only have 10,000 Pops (no matter the class). How many of those are upper class is determined by buildings that employ upper class pops."

So if a location has a popcap of 10,000 and the only building there is a marketplace, said location can have 9,500 lower class pops and 500 Burghers.

Actually, from what I could understand, it works more like this:

• <class> Cap: actually an equilibrium, if you have a different value of <class> pops will promote/demote to reach the cap (replace <class> with any upper class you want). These caps only exist for the upper class;
• Population Capacity (or pop cap): how many people you can have in a location without penalties to pop growth and migration attraction. In actuality, you may end up with a population higher than the capacity, if you have an excess of food in the location.

It could be interesting to know more about how this pop cap is calculated (we know what will influence it, but not how (additively, multiplicatively...), nor how much). But I guess it's a bit too soon, since they have already said that numbers are very prone to balancing.

 

[Lavilledieu]

This is a tricky thing. Where I live, irrigation is a mostly non-issue, in fact, to improve food production, people are trying really hard to drain water away, to remove moist from the soil. I wonder if the game will be able to make clear that some regions have an abundance of water, so much, that irrigation is not needed but drainage is vital.

 

[Znikii]

Will there be mutually exclusive buildings per territory (you can either have Tar or Charcoal Klin per province; Irrigation or Rafting transportation,...)?

Will there be building requirments/synergy for late game buildings or special production methods (req. of: irrigation + food farm + nobel/monastic estate buildings 》plantation; carpinter workshop + arms workshop + dockyard + baracks 》 arsenal)?

 

[tempanon]

is the irrigation building still not changed? I just think all the locations with rice RGO should be allowed to build irrigations because its necessary in the realworld practice.(and i found there are only three rivers in japan 1 month ago, but ok, i was banned until today)