Sd Kfz 251 AA Half-tracks

[Sotahullu]

Well basically Sd Kfz 251/17 we have is officially Sd.Kfz. 251/17 ausf. C mit 2cm that was specifically made for Luftwaffe as armored anti-aircraft vehicle that could keep up with mechanized units with some protection.

The controversial thing is that none of these saw service in Normandy or in France at all. Very few were made and only division that propably saw most use of it was the Fallschirm-Panzer Division in Italy.


However the Sd Kfz 251/17 that saw more service was based on the ausf. D version and its setup was more like this:



...Which production did not start until November 1944 (around the same times Sd Kfz 251/21 actually).


So why we have so many divisions with Sd Kfz 251/17 (and Sd Kfz 251/21) as there could not have been?

 

[EUG_MadMat]

Regarding the 251/21 Drillinge, it was indeed a mistake, as I've already admitted before.
Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa ...

The case of the 251/17 is more complex ...
The "official" 251/17 wasn't produced before too late for Normandy (I had in mind July or August, not November) indeed, yet it appeared in Panzerdivisions' KStN way before being introduced. And for the divisions involved in Normandy, 251/17 do appear in strength returns.
As it seems, while authorized such vehicles but none had been delivered, Panzerdivisions created their own battlefield modifications on SdKfz 251/1 or SdKfz. 11 chassis: some were mounting the official German 20mm Flak guns, other divisions which had been in Italy or been stationned in France had Breda 20mm or Hotchkiss 25mm instead.
"251/17" was a catch-all designations for all those customized vehicles until the real ones were delivered. Ingame, we've done the same, and "standardized" all those battlefield-modified SP 20mm on h/t as "251/17".

Now, I agree that choosing the Hermann Göring's "2 cm Flak 38 auf SPW (Sd.Kfz. 251)" as model to represent them all wasn't the brightest of idea, but at the time we drafted the army lists for SD44 I was unaware of the difference between the latter and the real 251/17, nor that it was a HG only vehicle.

 

[Herr_Robert]

They also added the M4A3(76)W, which did not see service during the Normandy campaign.

 

[EUG_MadMat]

They also added the M4A3(76)W, which did not see service during the Normandy campaign.

It wasn't in service when the Normandy campaign began, but definitively saw service before the liberation of Paris, being introduced as replacement during the course of the campaign.
Even the 2e DB had some when it entered Paris.

 

[Sotahullu]

Regarding the 251/21 Drillinge, it was indeed a mistake, as I've already admitted before.
Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa ...

The case of the 251/17 is more complex ...
The "official" 251/17 wasn't produced before too late for Normandy (I had in mind July or August, not November) indeed, yet it appeared in Panzerdivisions' KStN way before being introduced. And for the divisions involved in Normandy, 251/17 do appear in strength returns.
As it seems, while authorized such vehicles but none had been delivered, Panzerdivisions created their own battlefield modifications on SdKfz 251/1 or SdKfz. 11 chassis: some were mounting the official German 20mm Flak guns, other divisions which had been in Italy or been stationned in France had Breda 20mm or Hotchkiss 25mm instead.
"251/17" was a catch-all designations for all those customized vehicles until the real ones were delivered. Ingame, we've done the same, and "standardized" all those battlefield-modified SP 20mm on h/t as "251/17".

But as far as I know, only 12th SS had done such thing in Normandy. Althought more for the ground support rather then anti-aircraft.

So when Germans field modified anti-aircraft vehicles they basically used almost exclusively soft-skinned vehicles as armored troop half tracks were such luxury that it would had been waste.

Actually, here is an interesting set up:

Wooden carts with 2 x MG151 Drillings pulled exclusively with RSO tractors that them selfs were used as mounts for Flak 38 sometimes.

 

[vonLuck]

While I would bet the Germans would prioritize armored carriers as support over pure AA I would also bet that any time after the D-Day landing any German reaction unit would have had an immediate and desperate need for anything capable of warding off allied jabo's. I wouldn't put it past the Germans to have at least attempted to field anything to achieve this.

von Luck

 

[hellfish6]

but at the time we drafted the army lists for SD44 I was unaware of the difference between the latter and the real 251/17, nor that it was a HG only vehicle.

So... what army lists are you working on now?

 

[EUG_MadMat]

But as far as I know, only 12th SS had done such thing in Normandy.

1.SS and 21. Panzer too ... at least.
As vonLuck commented above, I guess that with the ever-present Jabo threat, any unit would have tinkered such SPAAG if they could over the course of the campaign ... officially or not.

So... what army lists are you working on now?

Many!
I like to keep my options open ...

 

[hellfish6]

Many!
I like to keep my options open ...

Nuts. You escaped my trap.

As I'm a little bored, can I/we help you with anything?

 

[Sotahullu]

Well I managed to track down one of those tracks from 12th SS:



Apparently it was from 12th Reconnaince Battalion and it was armed with Breda 20mm cannon.

 

[EUG_MadMat]

Well I managed to track down one of those tracks from 12th SS:



Apparently it was from 12th Reconnaince Battalion and it was armed with Breda 20mm cannon.

I have found the same picture but attributed to 1. SS-Panzer.
The latter had 16x SdKfz 251/17 on hand when moving to Normandy, but that must be one of those cases of modified vehicles being labeled as such.

As I'm a little bored, can I/we help you with anything?

Tell me which (1944) division you're interested in, and I'll check if I've got it in my archives ...

 

[hellfish6]

Tell me which (1944) division you're interested in, and I'll check if I've got it in my archives ...

Panzer-Grenadier-Division Großdeutschland and/or the Soviet 2nd Guards Airborne Division.

 

[Sotahullu]

Panzer-Grenadier-Division Großdeutschland and/or the Soviet 2nd Guards Airborne Division.

Pretty sure he was meaning those divisions that fought in Normandy campaign


Me, dips on some formations that could be classified as motorised divisions. We have only 2 divisions currently.

 

[EUG_MadMat]

Pretty sure he was meaning those divisions that fought in Normandy campaign

No, I meant any front in 1944. Although I should have specified "Summer 1944".

Me, dips on some formations that could be classified as motorised divisions. We have only 2 divisions currently.

Well, there was only one German Panzergrenadier-Division in Normandy (17. SS, already ingame) and none Allies for that classification didn't exist for them.
Us classifying the 3rd CID as such was already more in recognition of its Kangaroo APC than anything official.

Panzer-Grenadier-Division Großdeutschland and/or the Soviet 2nd Guards Airborne Division.

I'll have access to my archives tomorrow (I'm old-school, I rather book & papers ), I'll check.
Although I know I don't have the 2nd Guards Airborne.

From memory, I know GD was short on recon units, his Pz.Aufk.Abt. was back in Germany for refitting and converting on the 1944 model in Summer 1944, just like many German Panzerdivisions on the Eastern Front (5., 12., 20., ...), surely due to their mostly defensive role at that time.
I also know that GD was one of the few (2?) divisions to use the Aufklärer 38(t). But I don't know if it had received them in time for the Soviet offensive in Romania.

 

[hellfish6]

No, I meant any front in 1944. Although I should have specified "Summer 1944".

One of my grandfathers and his cousins fought in the 85th Infantry Division (US) in Italy. The division itself was pretty standard (especially given it was a reserve division), but participated in the Gothic Line campaign, relief of Anzio, liberation of Rome, and the Po River campaign. Of note, one of the division's regiments (the 339th Infantry) was one of the few US units that saw active service in Russia during the civil war there. My grandfather passed me down a Polar Bear shoulder patch from his old sergeant major, who had served there as a private.

Other than that... any division in Bagration has my keen support. Keen. Support.

I'll have access to my archives tomorrow (I'm old-school, I rather book & papers ), I'll check.
Although I know I don't have the 2nd Guards Airborne.

From memory, I know GD was short on recon units, his Pz.Aufk.Abt. was back in Germany for refitting and converting on the 1944 model in Summer 1944, just like many German Panzerdivisions on the Eastern Front (5., 12., 20., ...), surely due to their mostly defensive role at that time.
I also know that GD was one of the few (2?) divisions to use the Aufklärer 38(t). But I don't know if it had received them in time for the Soviet offensive in Romania.

I added GD because I'm reading about the East Prussia campaign now. It's always been kind of a grey area for me in my Ostfront knowledge. At least there, it did have a full PzAufkAbt and a whole other division named Großdeutschland to make it feel better about itself.

The 2nd Guards Airborne Division fought as a standard Soviet guards infantry division as far as I can tell, but one of the few to retain the title of an airborne division (most others were renamed Guards Rifle Divisions). It fought in Ukraine during the summer of '44 and then into the Carpathians along the Hungary/Romania/USSR frontier. In some of the mountain battles there, the division manhandled artillery pieces to the tops of mountains and used them as direct fire weapons against the enemy held peaks. Apparently even Katyushas, if Russian wikipedia is to be believed.

 

[EUG_MadMat]

GD's Pz.A.A. was indeed reformed from April to July 1944, with one company at a time being pulled out of the front. Aufklärer 38(t) were delivered in late April, with a few replacements being delivered in June & December.
So, the latter vehicles, which would be GD's main feature, wouldn't be there for the First Battle of Târgu Frumos, but would have been available in the Summer of '44.

As the organization goes, GD was a Panzergrenadier division by name only, being organized as a Panzerdivision (with more armored vehicles!). Basically, it had the best of two worlds!
* it retained the three-bataillon structure per infantry regiment, instead of two per Panzerdivision (for the Heer, the Waffen-SS also retained three battalions). Plus an additional "heavy weapon" battalion! So, each of its two regiments had 18 companies instead of the regular 10 or 11 in a Heer Panzerdivision and 15 in a Waffen-SS Panzerdivision or Heer Panzergrenadier one!
* it had one of its infantry battalions converted to armored infantry, same as a Panzerdivision and unlike Panzergrenadier ones.
* although one of its artillery battalions had converted to Panzer-Artillerie (Wespe & Hummel), it has also retained the four-battalion structure of the infantry (instead of three in the Panzer arm branch).
* it had a Panzer-Regiment of three Abteilung (battalions) instead of a single Abteilung in a regular Panzergrenadier division ... and a Panzer-Regiment with two Abteilung in a Panzer-Division! Hence more tanks than a latter!
* its third Panzer Abteilung was equipped with Tigers, very rare as divisional assets in 1944 (only Lehr had some too, but in fewer numbers, I believe).
* and yet, despite having a reinforced Panzer-Regiment, it also had a StuG-Abteilung AND a Panzerjäger-Abteilung (the former often made up for the absence of the latter in other divisions).
* its Pionier Abteilung was also on the model of a Panzerdivision's one, with one armored pionier company, unlike other Panzergrenadier divisions.
* it also had six FlaK companies in its Flak-Abteilung, instead of four for a regular Panzerdivision (although some had up to five, not sure if it is another Heer/SS difference).
* theoretically, it had its own Nebelwerfer company

So, aside from the Aufklärer 38(t), GD wouldn't have much new vehicles, but "more of everything".
In terms of equipment, it would be somewhere between 12. SS (without Beute nor Wirbelwind, but retaining the Tiger) & 9. Panzer (with Aufklärer 38(t) instead of Luchs).
It would have:
* more infantry (not armored)
* more field artillery
* more Tigers
* StuGs

And a lot of veteran units ...

 

[FLG 01]

Now, I agree that choosing the Hermann Göring's "2 cm Flak 38 auf SPW (Sd.Kfz. 251)" as model to represent them all wasn't the brightest of idea, but at the time we drafted the army lists for SD44 I was unaware of the difference between the latter and the real 251/17, nor that it was a HG only vehicle.

Looks like you have no choice then, release the HG.

Seriously, the HG is a fascinating formation, a Panzer-Division of the Luftwaffe which had its roots in the police and used Waffen-SS camouflage for a some of its troops... In game however it might be a bit more conventional than its history suggests.

 

[EUG_MadMat]

.. and has Fallschirm-Panzergrenadier!

 

[Sotahullu]

.. and has Fallschirm-Panzergrenadier!

Actually, HG Panzer Division (not the real name but my fingers cramp when I write the full name) had sizable continent of paratroopers (not fighting as paratroopers) with in its ranks and there was plenty uniform variations. There is even some pictures from East-Prussia in 1945 with soldiers wearing the old Stahlhelm paratrooper versions.

Actually, HG Panzer Division would be cool. Make it happen!

 

[hellfish6]

So we're getting GD and HG then. Excellent.