Seljuk Egypt and the Sultanate of Rum

[MattyG]

Calipah has long wanted to see the mameluke file rewritten. In particular, he wants very very much that it is no longer the Mamelukes or the Fatimids. Given that the Mongols did not destroy the Abbasids, the subsequent history of gypt ought to be very different and the Mamelukes would really never have arisen there.

But what to replace them with. One idea is obviously to have had the Abbasids take over Egypt, and while this meets the criteria for plausibility it really isn't anything we want to see in Interregnum in 1419. Plus we have already rewritten the Abbasid file twice now ...

Calipah has come up with something plausible and cool: the Seljuks conquered not only Anatolia, but also Egypt. I can't recall Calipah's storyline with any precision, but the Seljuks would still reign in Egypt in 1419, and maybe hold a single province in Anatolia, perhaps Taurus.

This would then tie in with his revised plan for Anatolia, which would have the Sultanate of Rum occuoying most of the provinces currently owned by Teke, Dulkadir, Karaman and Candar. Or having just collapsed. If the former, then only a player might be able to hold it together, but otherwise it splinters into three states. (And perhaps this is when Taurus goes to the Seljuk Egypt state ...)

Either of these states can reform the Seljuk Empire or the Sultanate or Rum by the usual conquest process. Or Byzantium might take bits. Or the Abbasids will, and then release it as the Order of the Crescent. Of the three states, one might be pro-Byzantine, one pro-Abbasid, one pro_Seljuk Egypt.

All of it is pretty yummy.

 

[unmerged(15247)]

any role for kingdom of jerusalim? how about it changing alegiance to constantinopole instead of rome IF byzhantum provides support for it when atacked by caliphate??? i mean in present state sicilly assists kingdom but obviouslly is something pure symbolic as sicilly ai can not do anything for real; usless event in my opinion, better to be transffered to byzhantum wich already has ai files for anatolia and COULD provide a real support; how about, if kingdom aplels to the byzhanteens , an event with choice B should trigger for byzhantum that awakes some great leader(s) and give some military bonus????( in effect giving a real chance to a reformation of the old empire if chooses to do so); a great schism would trigger meanwhile in the kingdom of jerusalim if chooses to convert its state religion

 

[unmerged(15247)]

after seeing any possible eu2 comportament i thnk, i would say that best "balance" result between ai are when there are INDIVIDUAL wars, not within an alliance; like if a nation wants to "start" any of the crusades, having possiblity of many individual peace deals helps ; also, logically appears the concept of "you win something , you loose some"

to the point; instead of giving random events that might frustrate players, there could be more systems like the iberian crusade( that will eventually work as hoped since you guys working on it i hear ); caliphate needs to do something that really upsets all neighbours and they all dow individually; OR when there is a religious choice to be made everyone to possiblly gang up on that BIG nation ( the hungarian choice of religion event is a perfect example here , that i hope will be aplied more in the future events)

 

[Don_Quigleone]

Hmm, that sounds all pretty good mattyg, another equally plausible (in my opinion anyway) is sudan/ethiopia (maybe not ethiopia...) controlling egypt, after all what if the orthodox chruch held on in egypt rather than being wiped out by muslim invasions...

Anyway one of the major things to consider here is culture, the seljuks are naturally turkish, how would culture play into all this?

 

[MattyG]

Hmm, that sounds all pretty good mattyg, another equally plausible (in my opinion anyway) is sudan/ethiopia (maybe not ethiopia...) controlling egypt, after all what if the orthodox chruch held on in egypt rather than being wiped out by muslim invasions...

I think you have something interesting here. Not total control, but Ethiopia beginning the game with one or two important provinces. It would not last long, of course, but does help to mae things a little less cozy for Misr, which traditionally in Interregnum is a bit like Byzantium: rarely does much but never gets ousted from its core, either.

Anyway one of the major things to consider here is culture, the seljuks are naturally turkish, how would culture play into all this?

Oh yeah, this will be a core feature of the file, I would say. Maturally they would begin with Turkish and Arabic culture, but keeping them both will require a deft political hand (and the odd stick). Then there's Somali, Maghrbei and Berber cultures to contend with.

Calipah feels strongly that they should also have cores on most of the Levant, but like those in Anatolia (the region, not just the province) actually maintaining that 'right to rule' will be another matter altogether.

 

[Avernite]

ehm..

Cores on the Levant? Like KoJ needs more enemies

And cores are important, not to be handed out easily...

 

[Don_Quigleone]

It might be godd for the caliphate to have some more competition in the levant (do they EVER lose?) that said this basically means the KoJ can never win

 

[MattyG]

It might be godd for the caliphate to have some more competition in the levant (do they EVER lose?) that said this basically means the KoJ can never win

The Abbasids are too strong at present, that is true. But that is partly because the Il-Khanate rolls over with revolts, Anatolia is too friendly to them and ditto the Mamelukes. Once we rebuild Anatolia to not be so pro-Abbasid and the Seljuks (who are probably anti-Abbasid) it will be quite different, I think.

As for the KoJ, they ought to rarely survive, except by a player.

 

[unmerged(31994)]

Hmm, that sounds all pretty good mattyg, another equally plausible (in my opinion anyway) is sudan/ethiopia (maybe not ethiopia...) controlling egypt, after all what if the orthodox chruch held on in egypt rather than being wiped out by muslim invasions...

Anyway one of the major things to consider here is culture, the seljuks are naturally turkish, how would culture play into all this?

I dont nessicarly agree with a continued orthodox rule of Egypt, as that would basically mean deleting Muslim history to the west of Egypt (no Al-Andalus, no Morocco) and dont tell me they could have used a navy or somesuch rubbish, Egypt was vital to the continued logistical and military campaigns against the berbers and without boom, no Muslim North Africa or Spain. Mind you, there is a nice touch to it for another world history, but not in interegnum.

The Seljuks will have Turkish culture methinks.

But I think I should address how they came to be...

Prior to the first crusade, the Seljuks managed to defeat the Fatamids(instead of the Fatamids ejecting them from the Levant as did happen in RL) and occupy all Egypt. Considering the warring nature of this state, a Seljuk egypt breaks away from the main Khorasan/hamadan/karamani axis of the empire and establishes an independent state, perhaps consolidated by the first crusade that seperates her from her bretheren georgraphically as well as politically.

Now the Great Seljuks of Misr whilst having a strong military tradition, never really gambled with their fortunes since they were in the end, Turks ruling over arabs. They expand slightly across Nubia and raid the Crusaders, but nothing more.

Since Syria constantly played hands and the Crusaders never ejected from Edessa, the whole Ayyubid thing falls.

In 1419, we have a weak Turkish state in Egypt, that, under some Great Seljuk or charismatic leader, is willing to rise up and reform. This makes for an intresting storyline, especially if we also include Turkish claims on Anatolia, the Levant and even ' ' Persia