Should Catholic countries be allowed to "build" a cardinal?

[Didsss]

Dear brethren of Christ,

As the recent Tinto Talks and clarification posted by the eminent Johan made clear, Catholic nations can now build cardinals. Should this infraction upon Papal authority stand?

As established by the In Nomine Domini in the year of our Lord 1059 with the creation of the Curia, the pope wields sole authority in the appointment of Cardinals. This recent devolution of divine power is an attack on our holy Church and Papal power as we know it. Our holy father has, since time immemorial, chosen those men who could best serve Christ and our holy mission on this Earth, and to rob him of this task now would only weaken and divide our most sacred Church. To attack the authority of Saint Peter is to attack Christ himself. I beg of you, brethren of Christ, do not let your desire for temporal power hinder you from entering the Kingdom of Heaven, where no crown is worn but that of humility.

Yours,
A Servant of the Servants of Christ

 

[WrathfulCelt]

I actually quite like the current abstraction. You're spending papal influence to 'convince' the pope to grant you a seat, just like you'll be using it to convince him to allow your king a divorce, declare your previous ruler a saint, allow higher taxes, forgive usury, and whatever other papal interactions there are.
It does mean that the papacy isn't entirely under the control of the papal states tag, but that was never the case in EU4, and I think this way is an elegant way to portray the influence the catholic kingdoms had over the church.

 

[ivj9]

This is like our very own Investiture Controversy: Forum Edition!

 

[gianlucad]

My liege... it is done... let us bask in the holiness of our creation

"DEATH IS A PREFERABLE ALTERNATIVE TO HEATHENISM"
"CHRISTIANITY IS NON-NEGOTIABLE"

-Cardinal Prime, circa MCCCXXXVII

 

[Álvaro Núñez de Lara]

I really don't like it. Its very cool that it needs a building, but i think it should only be granted by the Pope.

Not having it be so just detracts as a layer of depth from playing as the Pope or as Catholics.

Not that it was much better in EU4, but i think its a missed opportunity

 

[Didsss]

I really don't like it. Its very cool that it needs a building, but i think it should only be granted by the Pope.

Not having it be so just detracts as a layer of depth from playing as the Pope or as Catholics.

Not that it was much better in EU4, but i think its a missed opportunity

Yeah, maybe kingdom ranked countries can establish one permanent cardinal seat, but the pope can appoint more at will? I also think the cost in religious influence should increase the further away the location is from Avignon/Rome. There were no cardinals from Scandinavia in the timespan of the game, and only one cardinal from Poland between 1300 and 1500.

 

[Crunbum]

I'd say just cap it so there can be no more than 1 Cardinal Seat per 3 million Catholics, with only Cities with a Cathedral built being eligible to host one, prioritized by population in descending order so 85 million Catholics would result in up to 28 Cardinal Seats across the 28 highest pop Catholic Cities with the building.

Historically there were never more than 30 Cardinals at a time throughout 1200-1500, so that seems like a decent metric to calibrate it to. Holy Sites could get a pop weight multiplier and be home to more than one if eligible (i.e a lv4 Holy Site like Vatican could get up to 5 Cardinals, if 5/4/3/2/1x its pop all made the top 28).

Not only does this get rid of Cardinflation, but it also introduces potential rivalry elements which are fun, all while making Holy Sites more valuable to control. Losing a Cardinal Seat to another realm would also cause a little Antagonism and there would be a 1-2 year grace period when its about to happen to prevent constant flips.

 

[Galaxy32]

I don't like how little authority the Pope has on the matter,he should be the one to decide
Now you can also have countries bribing the papacy for cardinals,but the default shouldn't be that

 

[Thrudgelmir2333]

Building cardinals? I'm pretty sure cloning technology falls under the Stellarius forum purview.

 

[KaiserMeander]

My liege... it is done... let us bask in the holiness of our creation

"DEATH IS A PREFERABLE ALTERNATIVE TO HEATHENISM"
"CHRISTIANITY IS NON-NEGOTIABLE"
View attachment 1282234
-Cardinal Prime, circa MCCCXXXVII

Liberty Prime from Fo4, but instead of fighting Communism he fights Protestantism.

 

[donbg]

At some point, the game is going to have to release. I think the current system is fine and works, best to focus on spending dev time on more pressing matters than this.

 

[Álvaro Núñez de Lara]

At some point, the game is going to have to release. I think the current system is fine and works, best to focus on spending dev time on more pressing matters than this.

Agreed but a change like the ones proposed so far should be fairly easy to implement surely?

At the very least a requirement of a +100 relationship with the Pope should be a line in the script? You can make It more interactive with the Pope appointing later on.

 

[Oglesby]

I'd say just cap it so there can be no more than 1 Cardinal Seat per 3 million Catholics, with only Cities with a Cathedral built being eligible to host one, prioritized by population in descending order so 85 million Catholics would result in up to 28 Cardinal Seats across the 28 highest pop Catholic Cities with the building.

Historically there were never more than 30 Cardinals at a time throughout 1200-1500, so that seems like a decent metric to calibrate it to. Holy Sites could get a pop weight multiplier and be home to more than one if eligible (i.e a lv4 Holy Site like Vatican could get up to 5 Cardinals, if 5/4/3/2/1x its pop all made the top 28).

Not only does this get rid of Cardinflation, but it also introduces potential rivalry elements which are fun, all while making Holy Sites more valuable to control. Losing a Cardinal Seat to another realm would also cause a little Antagonism and there would be a 1-2 year grace period when its about to happen to prevent constant flips.

With the cost going up by the number of Cardinals in the state _and_ the number of Cardinals in the Curia as a whole I feel there already is a 'limit'. The values can still be adjusted if it appears that there are too many cardinals in their internal testing.

 

[saltykappa]

I really don't like it. It's just a weird way to represent them. Why are they buildings and not characters? Why can you just manufacture them at will?

Maybe the fact that you can just build them without the consent of the pope and curia is supposed to represent bribing them, but that's quite an abstract abstraction

 

[Álvaro Núñez de Lara]

I really don't like it. It's just a weird way to represent them. Why are they buildings and not characters? Why can you just manufacture them at will?

Maybe the fact that you can just build them without the consent of the pope and curia is supposed to represent bribing them, but that's quite an abstract abstraction

Agreed. I really like that such building exists, its very cool, but i would like it to be a REQUIREMENT, not something that grants you a cardinal automatically.

 

[Didsss]

I really don't like it. It's just a weird way to represent them. Why are they buildings and not characters? Why can you just manufacture them at will?

Maybe the fact that you can just build them without the consent of the pope and curia is supposed to represent bribing them, but that's quite an abstract abstraction

It's giving Vicky 3 vibes, where everything is done through buildings. My fear is that there are already hundreds of buildings to keep track of and plan for, and to turn something into a building that doesn't have to be is not a very engaging abstraction.

 

[Pls fix HRE]

I hope smaller countrys wont have it too difficult to atleast add a single cardinal. Dont want the EU4 repeat of Catholicism being a utterly worthless religion unless you killed all other catholics already.

 

[AChangeInTempo]

I like the building idea, but I think you should have to build it and then the pope will choose from all the ones built by other countries to appoint a cardinal. So he can only appoint cardinals to locations where the building is, but the building doesn’t create a cardinal out of thin air. So you might have like 3 empty seats because you built them but the pope refused to give you a cardinal so far.

 

[I like wars and maps]

I'd say just cap it so there can be no more than 1 Cardinal Seat per 3 million Catholics, with only Cities with a Cathedral built being eligible to host one, prioritized by population in descending order so 85 million Catholics would result in up to 28 Cardinal Seats across the 28 highest pop Catholic Cities with the building.

Historically there were never more than 30 Cardinals at a time throughout 1200-1500, so that seems like a decent metric to calibrate it to. Holy Sites could get a pop weight multiplier and be home to more than one if eligible (i.e a lv4 Holy Site like Vatican could get up to 5 Cardinals, if 5/4/3/2/1x its pop all made the top 28).

Not only does this get rid of Cardinflation, but it also introduces potential rivalry elements which are fun, all while making Holy Sites more valuable to control. Losing a Cardinal Seat to another realm would also cause a little Antagonism and there would be a 1-2 year grace period when its about to happen to prevent constant flips.

The amount of Cardinals was a political decision and not a theological one. You truly think if Sweden decided to stay the sword of christianity against the heretic protestants in the 30 years war that the Pope would still decide not to make more Cardinal places for them. Croatia conquers and converts all the Balkans into catholicism something wich never happened throughout 1200-1500 but the Pope would still decide not to add more Cardinals for them cause other Popes wich wont ever exist in this EU5 game decided not to go above 30.

 

[Crunbum]

The amount of Cardinals was a political decision and not a theological one. You truly think if Sweden decided to stay the sword of christianity against the heretic protestants in the 30 years war that the Pope would still decide not to make more Cardinal places for them. Croatia conquers and converts all the Balkans into catholicism something wich never happened throughout 1200-1500 but the Pope would still decide not to add more Cardinals for them cause other Popes wich wont ever exist in this EU5 game decided not to go above 30.

Think about what Cardinals represent. Typically you had roughly one Cardinal per Kingdom-sized catholic realm or sub-realm, and they were the heads of the local clergy and mediators between the King and the Catholic Church, heavily involved in politics. There are only so many Catholics in the world, only so many kingdoms.

Beyond that, each extra Cardinal dillutes the power of the rest, who choose the Pope from amongst themselves, meaning appointing more is dilluting their power. So there was every logical incentive not to appoint too many. And realistically, from a gameplay perspective, no one wants a situation where there are 500 cardinals, because its needless numbers inflation, they can't be that individually important if there's 500 of them.

Numbers go up isn't always good. Think why EU5 regiments will go up in size in each age, being 3200 manpower in the last era as compared to 100 in the first. Instead of the EU4 situations where the army of a lategame great power could be 500, 1000 or even 2000 regiments. You want the basic unit of anything in-game that the player interacts with to be meaningful, meaning the total should be in the mid dozens, not hundreds or thousands.