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Tannhäuser Cake

Lt. General
Nov 22, 2020
1.313
5.370
Currently, as a bottom line, the Stellaris pop economy has three "top tier" output resource types: Research, Unity, and Alloys. The function of other jobs is to provide input resources and influence the creation of these resources. Civilians can situationally get buffed so much that they effectively supplant other jobs, potentially even Alloy-producing jobs, via market trading - but otherwise Civilians basically just exist, and then the most desirable economic outcome minimizes their numbers in favour of maximising the output of the "big three".
(Correct me if the above assessment is wrong.)

The Stellaris economy could become more interesting if Civilians held a different role, that did not compete with other jobs for the most efficient way to produce the big three but rather complemented them, with the number of Civilians needing to be balanced against the other jobs in accordance with strategic priorities.
Instead of producing outputs, Civilians could produce the single most important resource in the pop economy: pops. Or, to be more precise, pop growth could be restricted to Civilians. The more Civilians a world has, the more pop growth it gets.

There are several potential benefits to changing the Stellaris economy in this fashion:

  • No more constant unemployment from new pops in the higher strata. If pops with jobs do not spawn new pops, new pops will not be "born into unemployment" in the job strata, and all population growth will happen in the Civilian stratum - where there is no unemployment. (This point is primarily about the player annoyance, but leads into the next two points.)
  • Performance improvement: up to 40% fewer pop groups to manage. If unemployment only happens when jobs are disabled, removed or lost to competition between pops, rather than being a constant state from pop growth, there will be much, much fewer unemployed pop groups for the game to manage. Since these pop groups are usually too small to contribute substantially to gameplay, the performance improvement outweighs whatever the unemployed pop groups might be considered to contribute to gameplay.
    • (The -40% reduction assumes there are up to 8 pop groups per species and ethic: 3 job groups, 3 corresponding unemployment groups, Civilians and Criminals.)
    • (Correct me if I have misunderstood how Unemployed pops are handled; I have not yet played post-4.0 Stellaris.)
  • Performance improvement: nearly 90% fewer pop groups involved in pop growth. The number of pop growth instances may be cut by as much as 90%, per species template, since pop growth would now only need to be handled for Civilians - not for Criminals, Workers, Unemployed Workers, Specialists, Unemployed Specialists, Elites and Unemployed Elites.
    • (Again, correct me if I have misunderstood how Unemployed pops are handled.)
  • Civilians become desirable to have, in a strategically balanced amount. Civilians become a necessity, without potentially making any other roles unnecessary. While it is still possible that players may opt to situationally go for either "no Civilians" or "all Civilians", this would either be temporary phases based on temporary strategic considerations, or as planet specialisations where some highly populated "Civilian worlds" provide pop growth to worlds that are specialised in other outputs but lack substantial pop growth of their own.
  • Stellaris becomes more complicated, in a good way. Empires that desire long-term success now need to balance their investments not just between Research, Unity and Alloys, but also Pop Growth. The concept is easy to understand, but the optimal ratios will vary from game to game, and even vary within games from situation to situation.
  • Less linear relationship between pop size and pop growth (historical realism). It would no longer be a foregone conclusion that empires with many pops grow the fastest while empires with few pops grow the slowest. Their choices could lead to different outcomes, with different long-term implications. Small empires might be able to catch up with a big empire that has overextended itself and needs to spend resources on staying on top or keeping its population rich, rather than growing. Ultimately, we would move one step closer to the dynamic human historical experience of different countries and empires waxing and waning, sometimes catching up and overtaking others in relative strength.
  • One more way to grow stronger as a subject / ability to speed-grow younger empires. As a subject, there is less need for managing your own defenses. Now, if a benevolent overlord can be persuaded to provide a trickle of their massive research, you could essentially neglect investments in both Alloys and Research and focus solely on Pop Growth (and Unity). The ability to focus on Pop Growth would overall be a new way for young or weakened empires to catch up to the older, bigger empires. This also adds a new long-term challenge for overlords, as their own pop growth may be outpaced by that of their subjects. They could fight this trend by taxing their subjects more harshly, but that would also make their subjects resent them more.
  • It makes thematic sense that Civilians would determine pop growth. It takes a village to raise a child. The Civilian position covers all of the civilian roles that facilitate the raising and integration of individuals into society, such as childcare, education, elderly care, healthcare, social counseling, criminal care, and other essential jobs not really represented anywhere else in Stellaris - including workforce spent on the parenting task itself. In a science fiction-level society, societal capacity rather than biological capacity determines population growth. The less focused a society is on handling the raising and integration of new individuals, the fewer new individuals it will collectively choose to produce via basic family planning. And the Civilian position is uniquely well suited to represent societal capacity for facilitating population growth.
    • It can even be argued that this is basic economics. Raising children does not occur in a vacuum, but requires a lot of work(force). If little workforce is available for the task, the cost of raising children will be higher and fewer children will be produced.
    • Essentially: having Civilians "produce" population growth can be a fundamentally intuitive model.
    • (It might even be argued that this model could be used to reflect the development in the modern world, in a very abstract and simplified manner. The world's population shifts from Civilian roles, including stay-at-home parenting (where else would parenting fit among Stellaris roles?), to producing more of Consumer Goods, Amenities and other things. The jobs created in childcare, elderly care, healthcare, education et cetera are nowhere near the share of the workforce that was previously directed towards managing and facilitating population growth, and population growth plummets. But don't take my word for gospel on this subject.)
(Pop assembly could either lean into this model, with the pop assembler jobs producing only as many new individuals as society can manage to raise/integrate, or be used to represent ready-made individuals that do not need any formative workforce input from Civilians.)


What are your thoughts on the subject?
Should Civilians handle population growth, or strongly influence it?
Or do you have another, better idea?
 
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This sounds like a miserable system to use. It's ultimately just an enormous pop growth tax.

I'm also not at all sure of the thematic side.

It also has negative ease-of-use implications, such as growth hitting a brick wall anywhere you have open jobs that will no longer be capable of growing pops to fill those jobs and change the situation.

You could ultimately rephrase this as "all jobs reduce growth by [Amount]," either with raised base growth or not, and that doesn't sound like a good time.
 
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I disagree with the initial assessment. Civilians are just old clerks with more flexible outputs, and that automatically resettle.

Ex. Fanatic Egalitarian-Pacifist clerks literally make 3 trade and 1.5 (15) amenities, plus 1 trade/100 amenities with Mercantile. They're missing 1.5 amenities, relative to clerks but they have 1/8 of a bureaucrat instead (0.25 CG -> 0.5 unity). Otherwise, they're nearly identical.

Different ethics swap 1 trade or 1 amenity for something roughly equally valuable: research, unity, edict fund, etc.

And Egalitarian, without any civics, can boost them further by making them produce base unity, and even research (which comes with an efficiency boost to replace Thrifty, which has otherwise disappeared).

Most empires want to minimize Civilians just like they minimized Clerks, but it's still basically the same job.
 
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Civilians already determine the pop growth in some way. If total population of a planet is below something around 1.2k - it efficiently has no pop growth. So the only way to populate new colonies is manual resettlement or auto-migration, which means having civilians somewhere else. If we take a fresh colony with 100 pops in vacuum (no migration, no resettlement, no pop assembly and so on) - it would take literally an eternity to reach at least 1k pops because the initial pop growth is garbage. Later the situation improves, but you can screw up if colonize a new planet when all of your planets have too much free jobs. So basically you already want to have some minimal amount of civilians on at least some planets to make colonization working.

Current balance when you are somehow want to use civilians, but stacking them up to infinity is just a viable choice for some builds instead of being something mandatory for everyone, is absolutely OK.
 
Civilians already determine the pop growth in some way. If total population of a planet is below something around 1.2k - it efficiently has no pop growth. So the only way to populate new colonies is manual resettlement or auto-migration, which means having civilians somewhere else. If we take a fresh colony with 100 pops in vacuum (no migration, no resettlement, no pop assembly and so on) - it would take literally an eternity to reach at least 1k pops because the initial pop growth is garbage. Later the situation improves, but you can screw up if colonize a new planet when all of your planets have too much free jobs. So basically you already want to have some minimal amount of civilians on at least some planets to make colonization working.

Current balance when you are somehow want to use civilians, but stacking them up to infinity is just a viable choice for some builds instead of being something mandatory for everyone, is absolutely OK.
Pops reproduce at (roughly) the same rate no matter where they are, so long as that place is below the logistic cap. Resettling pops to a new planet just gets them a slightly lower penalty from planet capacity (ex. -15% instead of -25%). That's not nothing, but it's a far cry from "civilians make growth".

Your planet with 100 pops will grow faster if you resettle an extra 900 civilians to it, but whatever planet you took them from (if it's not at the cap) will grow slower. It roughly evens out.

Once you first unstack your capital to get it below the logistic growth cap, it's all mostly zero sum. Just keep below 3k pops per world; there's no need to aggressively resettle beyond that. And especially no need to populate colonies faster than you can build jobs.
 
I'ma be real with you, that sounds absolutely miserable. Makes zero sense in any way shape or form, and would just screw new players, the ai, and everyone who accidentally creates too many jobs. Forcing people to keep large swathes unemployed to have pop growth sounds like one of the singularly most horrible ideas I've ever read on this forum.
 
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I'ma be real with you, that sounds absolutely miserable. Makes zero sense in any way shape or form, and would just screw new players, the ai, and everyone who accidentally creates too many jobs. Forcing people to keep large swathes unemployed to have pop growth sounds like one of the singularly most horrible ideas I've ever read on this forum.
I mean... it's just Replicators mixed with Clerks.

Suppose Civilians grew 2x as fast as currently, but everyone else didn't grow. You'd need 1000 Civilians to hit the 5.0 logistic cap (what currently takes 2000 pops now, or realistically 3000 with planet capacity).

Robots need 500 Replicators to make 5.0 assembly.

So a Civilian would be half a Replicator, plus a Clerk's output, but with no alloy upkeep.

I don't think I'd like it, but I think you might be exaggerating a bit when you say it's miserable. My main complaint would be that it makes organics feel too much like robots (where you have to actually think about making them grow, and you have jobs that make more pops).
 
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While I don't think this would be good for the default, I could absolutely see this being a thing for a (Megacorp?) civic

Work Culture
  • +20% specialist output
  • +20% pop growth
  • -60% specialist pop growth
  • -40% worker pop growth
In this society, having a high paying job is a privilege, and your manager expects your hours to reflect that. Though the government tries its best to encourage growth, ever since narrowly avoiding a population crunch, the culture that created that crunch is harder to directly change.

Excludes Civil Education.


Too real?




(Note: net -40% for specialists, -20% for workers, +20% for civilians and rulers)

Your specialists are powerful, but leveraging it crushes your growth. You have to keep a hefty surplus of civilians around to make up for it (or else go all in on e.g. alloy rushing to just conquer more pops).

I think these numbers are too weak (too much penalty, not enough specialist buff), though.
 
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Pops reproduce at (roughly) the same rate no matter where they are, so long as that place is below the logistic cap. Resettling pops to a new planet just gets them a slightly lower penalty from planet capacity (ex. -15% instead of -25%). That's not nothing, but it's a far cry from "civilians make growth".

Your planet with 100 pops will grow faster if you resettle an extra 900 civilians to it, but whatever planet you took them from (if it's not at the cap) will grow slower. It roughly evens out.

Once you first unstack your capital to get it below the logistic growth cap, it's all mostly zero sum. Just keep below 3k pops per world; there's no need to aggressively resettle beyond that. And especially no need to populate colonies faster than you can build jobs.
This is the thing I wish more people would notice. Pops really don't care where they grow, as long as the habitability is sufficiently high. That said: the best thing you can do for growth is to drop Luxury Housing on a planet. Also, the Shelled trait is neat because it increases planet capacity for every pop on the planet, which probably really helps on size <15 worlds.
 
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This is the thing I wish more people would notice. Pops really don't care where they grow, as long as the habitability is sufficiently high. That said: the best thing you can do for growth is to drop Luxury Housing on a planet. Also, the Shelled trait is neat because it increases planet capacity for every pop on the planet, which probably really helps on size <15 worlds.
Yup, Shelled is really good. It would have been fairly niche in 3.14, but with 4.0 pop growth, that housing usage reduction is very powerful.

If only Communal were bumped up to 20% or so that it would be worth picking...
 
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I am actively avoiding playing as a machine because of this. plays like a micro nightmare.
I been placing a Drone Storage building for 1500 housing and 2500 amenities as part of my colonizing planets now and that covers my needs for long enough for the pops to grow and start churning out drones to fill the gap in my experience so far. Eats up an Urban area building slot but once my drones have grown enough to cover it I can replace it with something else.

It is an annoying extra step in getting planets setup now in 4.0, but even my biologicals benefit from that with a Luxury Housing or Hive Warren to get those bonus amenities at setup (unless for some reason I am stacking multiple leaders that game with levels of the +Stability/+Amenities trait).

But yeah... Having civilians as the only growing population would be a weird, dystopian future state to me. Population divided between the "Workers" and the "Breeders", which could be an interesting Civic choice maybe but wouldn't be something I'd want as a base game mechanic.
 
I been placing a Drone Storage building for 1500 housing and 2500 amenities as part of my colonizing planets now and that covers my needs for long enough for the pops to grow and start churning out drones to fill the gap in my experience so far. Eats up an Urban area building slot but once my drones have grown enough to cover it I can replace it with something else.

Yeah, the housing buildings are the best early game source of amenities because they produce 2500 and take no jobs. Every time you take a new planet immediately build the spawning pool/medical centre, monument, and housing building.

Then resettle about 1000 pops to it so it gets a decent growth rate on its own. If you can't settle a new planet without dropping an existing one below 3000 and you aren't intending to cheese the automation building, don't settle a new planet yet. You're getting no outputs and paying empire size. Colony spam is not the way, you can get so much more out of your planets now due to job efficiency bonuses.
 
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Yeah, the housing buildings are the best early game source of amenities because they produce 2500 and take no jobs. Every time you take a new planet immediately build the spawning pool/medical centre, monument, and housing building.

Then resettle about 1000 pops to it so it gets a decent growth rate on its own. If you can't settle a new planet without dropping an existing one below 3000 and you aren't intending to cheese the automation building, don't settle a new planet yet. You're getting no outputs and paying empire size. Colony spam is not the way, you can get so much more out of your planets now due to job efficiency bonuses.
Good advice, I’ve largely been playing this way too, I suspect we mostly all are. Just wish they’d clue in the auto-migration system… I thought the whole idea was that civilians would migrate to new colonies. Either it’s not happening fast enough or not at all. Regardless i’d be nice to see a change here, add it to the list.
 
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