Should Dai Viet be Confucian now?

[Semi-Lobster]

So today, BjornB posted a new Development Diary entry for the upcoming (2 days!) Mandate of Heaven expansion. in it are:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-development-diary-4th-of-april-2017.1009063/

- Confucian countries now have a Harmony value. Harmony affect Tolerance of True Faith, development cost and legitimacy and increases yearly but is reduced if you convert provinces to Confucianism and when Harmonizing with other religions.
- Confucian countries can now Harmonize with other religions within their group and religion groups. Once a religion has been Harmonized into Confucian teachings, that religion will be treated as a Syncretic religion with no maluses.
- Added Confucianism Events.

While these new Confucian mechanics are mostly aimed at China and Korea, I would also like to point out these also apply to Dai Viet, in game currently Dai Viet is Mahayana Buddhist (infact, the only Mahayana Buddhist nation in 1444). The issue is that after the Chinese occupation of Vietnam only 17 years before the start of the game, the Le Dynasty had become a predominately Neo-Confucian, with the Le dynasty promoting Confucian scholars and building Confucian temples and academies. The Chinese exam system was adopted by the Vietnamese and Confucian government reforms over took indigenous ones. The worship of Confucius and Confucian ideas became part of Vietnamese folk religion. The situation is very reminiscent of the religious-political development of Korea. Where a predominately Buddhist state instead adopts Chinese Confucian culture.

With the new game mechanics Confucianism is now a syncretic religion like Tengrism and Fetishism which actually would represent Vietnam's rich Confucian and Buddhist history simultaneously without making Dai Viet unplayable which would be the situation now if Dai Viet had Confucianism as the state religion but with predominate Buddhism provinces.

 

[Warial]

Does Mahaya have any special mechanics? If so it would be a shame to remove it completely. However, it is true that under current game mechanics making Dai Viet Confucian makes the most sense.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Does Mahaya have any special mechanics? If so it would be a shame to remove it completely. However, it is true that under current game mechanics making Dai Viet Confucian makes the most sense.

Mahayana has the exact same (kind of underwhelming) Karma system as Theravada and Vajrayana, their bonuses are +2 Tolerance of heretics and -5% idea costs on top of their potential Karma bonuses. Mahayana would still be in the game as provincial religions that may spawn religious rebels too.

It is a little strange though, that the most populous form of Buddhism in the world is barely in the game but if we apply the same logic as to why Korea is Confucian rather than Mahayana Buddhist, they fit very similarly.

 

[Warial]

Mahayana has the exact same (kind of underwhelming) Karma system, their bonuses are +2 Tolerance of heretics and -5% idea costs on top of their potential Karma bonuses. Mahayana would still be in the game as provincial religions that may spawn religious rebels too.

It is a little strange though, that the most populous form of Buddhism in the world is barely in the game but if we apply the same logic as to why Korea is Confucian rather than Mahayana Buddhist, they fit very similarly.

Yeah. Of five nations where the majority of population practiced Biddhism only one does so in game. Religious mechanics of the game really make the disservice to the East Asia.

 

[SantoshKashyap]

How I wish there were some Mahayan provinces in India region with ability to form Bharat.

 

[fredrikslicer]

How I wish there were some Mahayan provinces in India region with ability to form Bharat.

Or Vahajama buddhism for that matter Ladakh can neither form Bahrat nor Tibet even though both would make perfect sense

 

[neondt]

It is a little strange though, that the most populous form of Buddhism in the world is barely in the game but if we apply the same logic as to why Korea is Confucian rather than Mahayana Buddhist, they fit very similarly.

With the Harmonisation mechanic, I think there's a case for adding a large number of Mahayana provinces to China. Perhaps Daoism could be represented too.

 

[Warial]

Or Vahajama buddhism for that matter Ladakh can neither form Bahrat nor Tibet even though both would make perfect sense

Vajrayana. But I think that Ladakh should be able to form Tibet, after all it was originally a kingdom created by a scion of Tibetan imperial family.

 

[fredrikslicer]

Vajrayana. But I think that Ladakh should be able to form Tibet, after all it was originally a kingdom created by a scion of Tibetan imperial family.

Allways get that name wrong and indeed my actual favorite thing would be if:

Ladakh could form both Tibet (Without becoming tibetan) and Bharat so you could get dali lama ruling Bharat and then claim mandate of heaven without losing the title of dali lama (Just the title name dali lama all else would change naturally) Im not sure why but it would be amazing

 

[SantoshKashyap]

If Sikkim is added to the game (carved out between Lumbivan & Bhutan), it should form Vajrayan Bharat.

In Nepal Lumbivan might have a sizeable Mahayan Buddhist population in Medieval ages. In Nepal & Eastern India (Assam & Bihar), to an unknown person it would be difficult to now if a person is Hindu, or Bhuddhist or Jain.

Many temples in Nepal and Eastern India are visited by Hindus & Buddhist together.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Back to the original topic, does anybody have any arguments or possible reasons why Dai Viet should not be Confucian?

 

[fredrikslicer]

Back to the original topic, does anybody have any arguments or possible reasons why Dai Viet should not be Confucian?

Not really though I am uncertain as to how many provinces should actually be confusian futhermore it should start as harmonized with mahayna buddhism

 

[Grand Historian]

Back to the original topic, does anybody have any arguments or possible reasons why Dai Viet should not be Confucian?

Aside from being the only Mahayana nation in game, no.

But then again Jewish and Zoroastrian have no nations at start either - that's part of the fun of switching to them.

(Still holding out hope for historically-accurate Catholic Byzantium.)

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I have the same opinion, let's hope somebody in Paradox realizes that their new Confucian mechanic is perfect for Dai Viet!

 

[FleetingRain]

I'd agree with Confucian Dai Viet already having Mahayana harmonized, but I'd also like to see more Mahayana provinces in China before that.

 

[RhoxOS]

I agree with this. Da Viet should start the game as Confucian country with Mahayana harmonized and some province like capital should have Confucian as province religion.

Also I think it's better to change some province's religion in Korea and Ming to Mahayana and have it harmonized. As Mahayana still takes large amount of portion in Korea for example.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Which provinces should be Mahayana and which should be Confucian then?

 

[RhoxOS]

Which provinces should be Mahayana and which should be Confucian then?

I have no idea where to start for Da Viet and Ming.

However, for Korea, I can find some of the record for it.

Since game starts with Sejong(Yi Do)'s reign, let's look at what he did.

Most famous Budhist policy done by Sejong will be combining all Budhist temples in the whole country into 36 temples only.
(http://sillok.history.go.kr/id/kda_10604005_002) This is article from 'The Annals of the Choson Dynasty'. Link is all in Korean so it will not help you unless you understand Korean.

Here is analysis of temples survived.

Seoul: 2
Kaesong: 6
Gyeonggi: 8
Chungcheong: 3
Gyeongsang: 4
Jeolla: 5
Gangwon: 3
Hwanghae: 3
Hamgyong: 1
Pyongan: 1


Now I have to seperate these into provinces what Koramei has suggested. I don't know the exact places so I just estimated border with my eyes.
===========================================================================
Hansung: Seoul+Kaesung+Northern Gyunggi = 15
{흥천사(興天寺), 흥덕사(興德寺)}
{숭효사(崇孝寺), 연복사(演福寺), 관음굴(觀音堀), 광명사(廣明寺),신암사(神巖寺), 감로사(甘露寺) }
{승가사(僧伽寺), 개경사(開慶寺), 회암사(檜巖寺), 진관사(津寬寺), 대자암(大慈菴), 연경사(衍慶寺), 장의사(藏義寺)}

Suwon: Southern Gyunggi=1
{영통사(靈通寺)}

Chungju=2
{속리사(俗離寺), 보련사(寶蓮寺)}

Cheongju=1 (On the sidenote I think Gongju is better name for this province)
{계룡사(鷄龍寺)}

Jinju=3
{단속사(斷俗寺), 견암사(見巖寺),해인사(海印寺)}

Gyeongju=1
{지림사(祗林寺)}

Jeonju=3
{소요사(逍遙寺)- not sure about this one, 흥룡사(興龍寺), 경복사(景福寺)}

Naju=2
{화엄사(華嚴寺), 서봉사(瑞峯寺)}

Gangneung=2
{유점사(楡岾寺), 표훈사(表訓寺)}

Wonju=1
{각림사(覺林寺)}

Hwangju=2
{정곡사(亭谷寺), 월정사(月精寺)}

Haeju=1
{신광사(神光寺)}

Pyeongyang=1
{영명사(永明寺)}

Hamheung=1
{석왕사(釋王寺)}
========================================================================================
There is population and 'is it easy for goverment to control them' problem of course,

My choice should be:

1. Haeju: Simply because it's close to Gaesung.
2. Gangneung: temple/population ratio is kinda good.
3. Wonju: same as above

There is another reason for putting Mahayana in Gangwon area. Gangwon is famous for being mountain area and Joseon forced Budhist to go into mountain to seperate them from daily life of common people.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

In Vietnam at least the "three teachings", Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism are so intertwined into Vietnamese "Folk Religion" which is very similar to Chinese folk religion, it will probably take some digging and some debate over "what province is more Buddhist than the other!" but generally probably provinces closer to the Chinese border would be considered Confucian.

 

[Warial]

Frankly, the most historical solution would be to make Confucianism a a country-level religion only and have Mahayana in all provinces.