Should origins be split into different categories that can be combined?

[Troyen]

There might be specific combinations that would work fine together, but there's a lot of combinations where I think you're just asking for even more power creep to be added to the game. It's already quite a long process to start a new game between all the existing empire options, some of which feel superfluous, and this would not only add more steps but also more power bonuses to the game. I also think it would counterintuitively reduce replayability because you're getting more of the content in a single run rather than having it spread out across multiple runs with the solo-origin approach.

 

[Ohirra]

I would love to be able to try out some of the other available origins, but I only ever play Void Dwellers (or Virtuality Shattered Ring).

 

[r3xm0rt1s]

Personally, I would enjoy two picks and just block off any that outright don't work together.

There's plenty we can contemplate with categories, or point limits, but its all a lot more complicated than just "two that aren't directly incompatible," leaves open options that would be blocked in either a category or point setup, which is also the easiest to implement.

It's a LOT of added customization. Two is realistically plenty.

As long as multiple origins can be taken, hopefully the number is a define we can mod to our preferences. I enjoy modifier stacking and this exclusivity makes me anxious.

 

[Metallichydra]

There might be specific combinations that would work fine together, but there's a lot of combinations where I think you're just asking for even more power creep to be added to the game. It's already quite a long process to start a new game between all the existing empire options, some of which feel superfluous, and this would not only add more steps but also more power bonuses to the game. I also think it would counterintuitively reduce replayability because you're getting more of the content in a single run rather than having it spread out across multiple runs with the solo-origin approach.

It could also increase replayability since the combination of multiple origins will change how the game is played, even if the same origin components are used in different empires.
As an example, A Necrophage Doomsday empire might play very different from a Necrophage Shattered Ring, a Doomsday Shattered Ring or a Necrophage Doomsday Shattered Ring.

 

[Metallichydra]

It might be interesting to try to construct a mod that emulates this.
Should be possible, considering the homeworld origins could be added to the homeworld selection alongside the basic planet types.
The traits (Evolution) could just go into traits.
Then the pre-FTL society would remain in origins.
And for post-ftl society, we could hijack the ruler trait selection.
That leaves Society type, which for gestalts perhaps could be ethics (Seeing as most gestalt society types are basically ethics), though I don't know where we'd put fanatic purifiers and the like.

 

[HFY]

Should be possible, considering the homeworld origins could be added to the homeworld selection alongside the basic planet types.

Home system is another place to look, since system initialization can do a lot.

 

[Rafss]

Home system is another place to look, since system initialization can do a lot.

My forever gold dream is a System Builder where you can place celestial bodies, deposits and other things, with pick and cost limits for balance. Does that feel too much like Stellaris 2?

 

[Tannhäuser Cake]

My forever gold dream is a System Builder where you can place celestial bodies, deposits and other things, with pick and cost limits for balance. Does that feel too much like Stellaris 2?

I personally would also like a homeworld/system editor, including a random seed entry feature, if only so that we can give our custom empires the same home systems for each game, rather than getting new and random ones every time we start a new game (and also so that I can stop restart-scumming until I get my home system in a nebula, when I want to roleplay secretive isolationists). Though I like the idea of also giving the homeworld one of the common planetary features or modifiers, such as extreme weather or tectonic instability. The sameness of starting empire homeworlds can feel kind of not non-bland.

And this kind of feature does not really seem to require a new game engine, so it should be a potential Stellaris DLC feature (possibly with the basic interface and random generation seed feature in the free update, to give all the existing prefabricated empires static home systems, while more direct editing and special features could require the DLC).

 

[Metallichydra]

Home system is another place to look, since system initialization can do a lot.

Home system could be used for Post-FTL society, freeing up the ruler trait selection for other stuff.

 

[Tannhäuser Cake]

It might be interesting to try to construct a mod that emulates this.
Should be possible, considering the homeworld origins could be added to the homeworld selection alongside the basic planet types.
The traits (Evolution) could just go into traits.
Then the pre-FTL society would remain in origins.
And for post-ftl society, we could hijack the ruler trait selection.
That leaves Society type, which for gestalts perhaps could be ethics (Seeing as most gestalt society types are basically ethics), though I don't know where we'd put fanatic purifiers and the like.

Everything can be more or less modded in the current game, I believe. A workaround for the Society Type feature could be that the selected permanent civics simply give +1 civic pick point (and exclude all of the other permanent civics). Though some balancing tweaks could also be required. In my head, Society Type should be about mixed bags that can lose entire aspects of gameplay, while getting special abilities or doubling down in abnormal directions. Fundamental differences from how "normal states" operate.

(In that regard, I could even see the Defensive Wars ban on aggressive warfare being moved to Inward Perfection, since it is such a radical departure from normal gameplay. Pacifists could still declare wars, they would just be unhappy about it and would not get aggressive claims - but that is a discussion for another topic than this thread.)

 

[SupremeGodEmperor]

Everything can be more or less modded in the current game, I believe. A workaround for the Society Type feature could be that the selected permanent civics simply give +1 civic pick point (and exclude all of the other permanent civics). Though some balancing tweaks could also be required. In my head, Society Type should be about mixed bags that can lose entire aspects of gameplay, while getting special abilities or doubling down in abnormal directions. Fundamental differences from how "normal states" operate.

(In that regard, I could even see the Defensive Wars ban on aggressive warfare being moved to Inward Perfection, since it is such a radical departure from normal gameplay. Pacifists could still declare wars, they would just be unhappy about it and would not get aggressive claims - but that is a discussion for another topic than this thread.)

Yes, so while I like and mostly agree with the idea of the OP by combining the origins, there is also another option where instead of the Society Type aspect of the origins, you (all empires) get a choice of three civics instead of the normal two civics; but one of the civics has to be one of these "society types" that are permanently locked in from the start of the game.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

It might be interesting to try to construct a mod that emulates this.
Should be possible, considering the homeworld origins could be added to the homeworld selection alongside the basic planet types.
The traits (Evolution) could just go into traits.
Then the pre-FTL society would remain in origins.
And for post-ftl society, we could hijack the ruler trait selection.
That leaves Society type, which for gestalts perhaps could be ethics (Seeing as most gestalt society types are basically ethics), though I don't know where we'd put fanatic purifiers and the like.

Doable, but a bit more complicated as you'd also need to hijack has_origin or have to revise a large number of event files, inline scripts, etc to recognize the origins that are now traits etc.

 

[Tannhäuser Cake]

Here is a third version of the table. Under this model, there are basically two categories of origins: pre-FTL history and post-FTL situation.
(A number of current origins could be converted to homeworld or species trait choices, while "Society Type" is the new category for permanent civics that occupies a design concept space different from origins, civics and governments.)

Some principles I tried to follow:

1. When an origin's content can be delegated to other choices of empire design, such as homeworld or species traits, this should be done.
2. Content-heavy origins should remain, but if other choices of empire design could (relatively) easily support "light" versions of them, such an addition should be considered.
3. Civics should be more clearly delineated by the dictionary definition of civics, i.e. civics should express what "good citizenship and proper membership in a community" means.
   • The overarching purpose / organization / objective of a society is on a higher organizational level than civics, and should be represented by a new choice that defines the type of society / civilization, its purpose and reason for being; its future direction.
   • Similarly, there should be no civics that are primarily about the usage of species abilities; if it does not take a civic to farm, it should not take a civic to use other abilities either. The abilities of pops should remain the same regardless of which empire they are in.
   • There should be no permanent civics, since ideas of civic duties and civic pride can change when society changes (new ethics, new government types).
   • Civics should also be subject to #1 and #2 above.

Blue = suggested addition
Yellow = current civic

DELEGATED TO HOMEWORLD / TRAITS​	ORIGIN (pre-FTL history)​	POST-FTL SITUATION (diplomacy, infrastructure, etc.)​	SOCIETY TYPE (abnormal gameplay, purpose, raison d'être)​
Tomb World (Post-Apocalyptic)	Prosperous Unification (default)	"Default"	"Default"
Gaia World (Life-Seeded)	Lost Colony	Doomsday	Barbaric Despoilers
Relic World (Remnants)	Mechanist	Galactic Doorstep	Fanatic Purifiers
Machine World (Resource Consolidation)	Syncretic Evolution	Common Ground	Inward Perfection
Hive World	Clone Army	Hegemon	Shadow Council
Habitat (Void Dwellers)	On the Shoulders of Giants	Hegemon Subordinate	Criminal Heritage
Shattered Ring	Here Be Dragons	Scion	Devouring Swarm
Calamitous Birth	Ocean Paradise	Imperial Fiefdom	Terravore
Cave Dweller (Subterranean)	Knights of the Toxic God	Slingshot to the Stars	Determined Exterminator
Aquatic (Anglers, etc.)	Overtuned	Broken Shackles	Driven Assimilator
Storm Touched (Storm Devotion, etc.)	Fear of the Dark	Payback	Rogue Servitor
Necrophage	Under One Rule	Fruitful Partnership	Obsessional Directive
Limited Cybernetic	Riftworld		Sovereign Guardianship, etc.
Latent Psionic	Storm Chasers		Idyllic Bloom , etc.
Degrading Genes	Primal Calling		Galactic Curators, etc.
Natural Perfection (Natural Design, etc.)	Treasure Hunters		Beastmasters, etc.
Parthenogenesis	Teachers of the Shroud
Malleable Genes	Cybernetic Creed		​
	Synthetic Fertility
	Arc Welders		DE-PERMANENTED CIVICS​
	Tree of Life		Augmentation Bazaars​
	Progenitor Hive		Oppressive Autocracy
	Tactical Algorithms		Shadow Corporation
	Eager Explorers, etc.		Planetscapers, etc.

Some examples of what the delegation of origins to the homeworld and species trait selection could look like:

• The presence of specific traits in the species templates of an empire unlocks specific technologies.
  • If these traits are present at the beginning of the game, the empire starts with those technologies.
  • The jobs unlocked could limit their Workforce input to pops with the requisite trait.
  • This allows DLC content-specific features to still have a cost, mediated via the (much better suited) species trait system rather than the (poorly fitting) civic system.
  • This also means that empires that acquire pops with unique talents can now put those talents to use, while empires where the main species has a unique talent cannot expect other species to be able to do the jobs that require those unique abilities. For instance, only Aquatic pops could have what it takes to be Pearl Divers.
• It is possible to choose a climate preference that differs from the homeworld.
  • This would mostly be useful in case of special homeworld climates, such as Tomb World or Relic World.
  • It would, however, also allow us to pick a wrong-climate homeworld to represent a recent climate shift, or a Lost Colony empire ending up on a wrong-climate planet.
    • It seems a bit unlikely that every Lost Colony expedition ends up having been stranded in precisely the same climate as their homeworld, no? (This could perhaps even be encouraged by giving Lost Colony a +10% Habitability bonus, compensating them for an absence of the +30% homeworld habitability bonus.)
• Tomb World
  • Allows Tomb World Preference, which now costs trait points, replacing the two effects above?
  • Picking another, natural, climate preference instead:
    • Adds species trait Survivor (+50% Tomb World habitability, but could be reduced further if we want Tomb World starts to be more complicated), or equivalent.
    • Adds technology Tomb World Adaptation (+20% Tomb World habitability) as a starting technology.
• Gaia World
  • Allows Gaia World Preference.
  • Keeping it adds the other effects of Life-Seeded.
  • Picking a normal climate preference makes the homeworld unusually small?
• Habitat
  • Allows Habitat Preference.
  • Keeping it adds species trait Void Dweller, while picking another climate preference does not - it would signify that the species is primarily planetbound, and that the habitat is perhaps a Lost Colony.
    • Picking the Aquatic trait could perhaps even make the Habitat start as flooded.
  • Adds starting technologies of Void Dwellers.
  • Void Dwellers' free Voidborne effects, tradition swaps, guaranteed habitable world replacements, and civic restrictions are all tied to the main species having Habitat preference (rather than the Void Dwellers origin).
• Relic World, Machine World, Shattered Ring
  • Inherit the effects of their respective former origins.
• Calamitous Birth
  • A new species trait, that turns any colony ship with its pops into a Meteorite Colony Ship.
  • Since the effect is so small, a better option may be to just make this a feature of the lithoid shipset (for colony ships carrying a lithoid species; other species require more delicate means of settlement). This may be especially fitting if lithoid ships are reinterpreted as being lithoid bioships.
• Cave Dweller
  • The Cave Dweller trait remains as it is, except it is now selectable.
  • The Cave Dweller trait now unlocks a new technology for subterranean habitation, which in turn unlocks a planetary decision that gives a colony the effects currently reserved for the Subterranean origin (and, perhaps, can only be used if Cave Dweller pops are present on the colony concerned).
    • This would finally end the weirdness that happens when subterranean colonies switch owners.
    • This subterranean habitation effect should probably also have sub-optimal effects for non-Cave Dweller pops, to discourage non-Cave Dweller empires from spamming the decision. (For lack of a better way to handle mixed colonies.)
• Aquatic
  • The Aquatic trait now unlocks new technologies that grant the benefits of the Anglers civics.
    • A zone or planetary decision (or even planetary designation) could swap Agricultural district Farmer jobs for Anglers and Pearl Divers.
      • Similar to the situation with Subterranean, this change could prevent the weirdness where an entire colony can suddenly lose its entire fishing fleet, and forget how to fish and dive for pearls, when it switches owners.
    • Pearl Diver jobs could require the Aquatic trait, while Angler jobs could be done by any pop.
    • The removed cap for Agricultural districts on Ocean worlds could be moved to the Hydrocentric ascension perk.
• Storm Touched
  • The Storm Touched trait remains as it is, except it is now selectable.
  • The Storm Touched trait now unlocks a new technology for the Storm Summoning Theater buildings, and is required for supplying Workforce to the Storm Dancer job (which, if I read the wiki correctly, currently does not require pops that are storm-sensitive).
• Necrophage
  • The Necrophage trait remains as it is, except it is now selectable.
  • The Necrophage trait now unlocks a new technology for the Chamber of Elevation buildings, and a new Necrophage-only job is added to signify the target species template(s) for voluntary Necrophytes.
  • Alternatively:
    • Pop growth that scales with the size of the living population? Minus the size of the Necrophage population? Instead of the current growth penalty?
    • Usurping pop growth from other pops?
    • If a population turnover mechanic was introduced (to make the lifespan and xp gain species traits matter for pops and not just leaders), the Necrophage trait could tap into that mechanic by growing its pops proportionally to the turnover of other pops (plus any purging and sacrifices taking place)?
• Limited Cybernetic, Latent Psionic, Bad Genes
  • These traits would serve as "light" versions of the ascension-oriented origins, allowing a species/empire to begin the game locked to a specific ascension path (especially useful for designing custom AI empires) and also enabling flavour combinations currently not possible. For instance, it would now be possible to recreate something like the Ketling story (Tomb World + Latent Psionic), or the Babylon 5 setting where most species could be considered Latent Psionic without having any connections to the Teachers of the Shroud content, or many cyberpunk settings where cybernetics precede FTL travel.
  • "Degrading Genes" would not be as bad as Pathogenic Genes, but would still be bad and unremovable; something like the situation of the Hyach of Babylon 5. Perhaps a general habitability penalty that is proportional to the amount of time passed since the start of the game? This trait would point the empire towards synthetic ascension.
• Natural Perfection
  • A trait that would be the "light" equivalent of the Natural Design civic. Blocks species modification (where this trait is kept), while increasing trait picks and trait points by +2 each (not counting itself), and blocks all ascension paths if the main species has this trait.
  • The trait unlocks a technology that unlocks the Genomic Services Center, which in turn unlocks a job that requires this specific trait.
  • Alternatively, the permanent civic could be replaced with an origin that gives the main species this trait and unlocks the other effects.
  • One reason for reworking the civic into either an origin or a trait, or both, or a non-permanent civic that requires the trait in the main species, is that there would presumably only be room for one permanent civic, and this trait/origin should arguably be combinable with the other choices.
• Natural Perfection, Malleable Genes, Parthenogenesis/Budding
  • These traits could tie an empire to a specific genetic ascension path.
  • In this case, the interpretation of "Natural Perfection" would be that while the species has pretty strong genetic benefits, the absence of the origin (or civic) means that the society is not above imagining even greater genetic Perfection (while a society with the origin/civic is too arrogant).
  • Malleable Genes could be made available independently of the origin which grants the trait.
  • Parthenogenesis could be a non-plant counterpart of Budding, and make a species naturally predisposed towards Cloning.

De-permanentification of civics:

• Augmentation Bazaars
  • Could instead require the presence of cybernetic pops (or that the main species is cybernetic).
  • The civic could then be adopted after picking the Limited Cybernetic starting trait, the Cybernetic Creed origin, or cybernetic ascension.
  • (More advanced civics that are unlocked via traits, technologies, traditions, or ascension paths? Yes please!)
• Anglers / Marine Machines / Trawling Operations / Maritime Robotics
  • If these are kept as civics to begin with, despite being more about a species using its natural abilities...
  • Could instead require the presence of aquatic pops; i.e. acquiring an aquatic species midgame would unlock the civic.
• Natural Design / Innate Design
  • If the trait is added as per above, it could be made a requirement for picking this civic, which would then no longer need to be permanent.
• Oppressive Autocracy
  • It is not very clear why this civic needs be permanent to begin with.
• Shadow Corporation
  • Its non-corporate counterpart, Dark Consortium, does not seem to be permanent according to the wiki... so, then, why should Shadow Corporation be?

This splitting of origins into pre-FTL and post-FTL parts, recycling of origins as homeworld or species trait selections, and addition of society type covering many permanent civics, could potentially resolve the previously described issues and also enable such combinations as:

• Habitat homeworld + any of many different origins
• Relic homeworld + On the Shoulders of Giants
• Eager Explorers + Doomsday
• Life-Seeded + Doomsday (for a really cursed beginning)
• Tree of Life + Doomsday
• Tree of Life + Fruitful Partnership
• "Can of Overtuna" (Habitat homeworld + Overtuned + Aquatic + Necrophage)
• Feel free to suggest more combinations with great fun / roleplaying potential, or sci-fi empires/species that could be approximated more faithfully than what is currently possible.

Also feel free to point out any typos, errors, inconsistencies, et cetera in the text above.
(And keep in mind that it is primarily meant as a basis for discussion, and is not necessarily a complete suggestion.)

 

[LavanGrimwulff]

Civics already use a point system but everything costs the same, I'd love to see that get expanded to a proper point system and origins do the same. Could even use the same point pool for both of them that way you could weight it more in one direction or the other if you wanted to.

 

[Tannhäuser Cake]

A slight addendum to the definitions of "society type" or "civilization type" of post #53:
in addition to modifying gameplay in substantial ways, a hallmark of a society/civilization type is that it also gets bonus Unity from performing certain activities. This is already the case for most of the civics included in the list, though it could be emphasised more for some of them:

• Fanatic Purifiers and Determined Exterminator get bonus Unity from purging pops and bonus Unity from unlocking exhibit slots.
• Devouring Swarm and Terravore get bonus Society Research from eating alien pops (this could probably be swapped to Unity instead), and bonus Unity from unlocking exhibit slots.
  • Eating pops should probably award Unity as well, it feels weird that it does not when considering how central that is to this society/civilization type.
  • If "Consume World" does not already award bonus Unity, perhaps it should.
• Driven Assimilators get bonus Unity and Society Research per assimilated pop.
• Rogue Servitors get more Unity from having more Bio-Trophies.
• Obsessional Directive gets bonus Unity from the Commodities Consolidation situation.
• Inward Perfection currently gets +20% Monthly Unity from existing.
  • Perhaps this could be complemented or replaced with bonus Unity from (lack of) some specific action.
  • The "Inner Focus" edict of Sovereign Guardianship could be shared with Inward Perfection.
  • The Monthly Unity bonus could be replaced with a Faction Unity bonus for governing ethics/factions, to specifically encourage the pursuit of cultural purity and rejection of foreign ideologies.
• Sovereign Guardianship gets +1 Unity from Soldiers and the Inner Focus edict, which converts 3 Influence to +10% Monthly Unity.
• Galactic Curators get bonus Unity from obtaining specimen, excavating archaeological sites, and finishing a Grand Archive.
• Beastmasters get bonus Unity from finishing a Grand Archive.
  • That bonus is a bit peripheral to the core theme of the civic. They could get bonus Unity from capturing, keeping and/or culling space fauna.

Some of the civics currently lack any bonus Unity, but this could easily be remedied:

• Idyllic Bloom's building phases could add increasing amounts of bonus Unity.
• Shadow Council could get bonus Unity from things that protect the secret of the Illuminati, secure their hold on power, or keeps up appearances in general. For instance, bonus Unity monthly for each Encryption point (helps protect the secret against outsiders), bonus Unity every time a governing ethic candidate wins an election (maintaining control), and so on.
• Criminal Heritage could get bonus Unity from Criminal jobs on branch offices, or from criminal branch offices simply existing (while they are getting legitimate branch offices via friendly means of commercial access, the criminal branch offices could hold greater meaning to their sense of identity).
• Barbaric Despoilers could get bonus Unity from despoliation victories, and from looting specimen and relics.
  • The raiding bombardment stance could also, at least for them, be changed so that it is more about pillaging and slightly less about capturing pops. Raiding could award bonus resources while ruining buildings (effectively stealing a part of the construction investment), and a proportional amount of bonus Unity. (Pop abduction would still remain one of the effects of raiding bombardment.)
• Eager Explorers could get bonus Unity from... exploring!
  • Bonus Unity from each new system that is revealed.
  • Bonus Unity from each world surveyed.
  • Bonus Unity from each anomaly studied.
  • Bonus Unity from each first contact completed.
  • Bonus Unity from each rift explored.

The "default society type" could have a bonus to Unity from jobs, which the more special society types would miss out on as a balancing feature; the latter would get less Unity from development, in exchange for getting bonus Unity from fulfilling their central cultural imperatives. (The base production of Unity from jobs should also be lowered, so that the "default society type" basically ends up at the current status quo. The idea is that the loss of Unity from jobs should be so substantial that the additional society/civilization type "civic" at the start of the game does not result in a net powercreep.)

 

[Xaelyn]

I don't think that kind of homogenization is good or necessary. It's perfectly okay for some origins in a category to be good at unity and others to be detrimental or not have any relation to unity whatsoever. Even if we assume that options in a category ought to be roughly balanced against each other in power level, that doesn't mean they need to do the same thing.

 

[Tannhäuser Cake]

I don't think that kind of homogenization is good or necessary. It's perfectly okay for some origins in a category to be good at unity and others to be detrimental or not have any relation to unity whatsoever. Even if we assume that options in a category ought to be roughly balanced against each other in power level, that doesn't mean they need to do the same thing.

What would you suggest that the "default" society type does instead?
Do you disagree with all of the other specific suggestions for Unity bonuses?

 

[Gundabadguy]

I definitely want more options for origins, like for example a Clone Army + Imperial Fiefdom combo would be cool and thematic, but I think there shouldn't be too many categories and I think the civics that are kind of like origins are fine as civics.

Personally I think splitting the origins into homeworld, species and galaxy would work, where stuff like Shattered Ring and Post-Apocalyptic are in homeworld, Necrophage and Clone Army in species and Imperial Fiefdom and Common Ground in galaxy.

 

[Hiksday]

I think moving homeworld origin to homeworld selection makes a lot of sense and is probably the easiest part of this suggestion to implement. It shouldn't impact balance too much and open quite a lot of story telling possibility.

For traits it works well for trait that are unique to an origin (cave dweller and necrophage are perfect candidate ) but for aquatic it's quite a mess.

I like the idea to split origin into pre-ftl and post-ftl part but the amount of work seems quite high and it would require a major rework and balance pass.

 

[Helicopter200]

Holy Moly i really love this idea