Shouldn't the Starks like house Manderly a little?

[Ed Mike]

First of all, I love this mod. Thank you for your amazing -and obviously hard- work!

Between religious differences and refusing to let it's heir be raised by a Northern noble or allowing said noble to change focus to Heritage, the Starks are quite usually at a base -25 relationship with the Manderlies, or worse if you have a lot of kids from around the same age to denny convertion. Which seems a little too much of an annoyance.

I could let the heirs of White Harbor be converted, but that would go against the thing that makes the Manderly stood out in the first place, and *very* non-canonical.

I'm ok with the whole rest of the North in the best disliking them.
I know the Northern houses in general dislike house Manderly for STILL behaving like southron lords after a thousand years living north of the Neck, with all their very Southron dedication to silversmithing, trading, sailing, knighting and to-the-Seven-praying. It also didn't help that they are, technically the "newcomers" and yet hold the richest lands (which are not richer ingame, but let's focus here, hehe). The land is rich *because* they do all these Southern trade and craftsmanship, but I don't think their neighbors would see it that way.

BUT if I'm ok with the whole North turning a bad eye to my characters, I'm not that ok with the Starks trying to revoke my title every two generations.

Would you consider putting in some sort of event for the AI Starks to have their opinion of the Manderlies at at least higher than -25 if they are behaving?

And while I'm at it, maybe a chain of events about some delicious pies? :-D

P.s.: I do love the event that rises their opinion of the Stark in power from time to time, kudos for that idea!

 

[appleseed26]

I guess it's gonna be over complicated to implement this

 

[Liar]

I guess it's gonna be over complicated to implement this

You can just include a reverse of the positive opinion the Manderlys get against the Starks.

 

[Rationalsanity]

Really, there is too much contention between followers of the Old Gods and the Seven as a whole. They've lived in the same continent and then the same Kingdom in relative peace for thousands of years. I can't remember a war in the lore, beyond the initial Andal invasion (and that wasn't entirely a religiously motivated conflict), that was triggered between the Old and New faiths that was due to religion.

 

[ogarrr]

Well Baelor the Blessed wanted to organise a crusade-esque war against all non-believers in the realm. He died before that happened though, definitely not poisoned by his uncle to prevent a ridiculously bloody war with the Starks and Greyjoys.

 

[SBerger]

Can you provide a source for that? I took a look through the World of Ice and Fire and a Wiki of Ice and Fire and couldn't find a single sentence saying Baelor had a desire for a war of any kind. His ten year reign was marked by forgiveness, charity work, and peace making.

 

[das]

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Baelor_I_Targaryen#Death

It's this, isn't it? But it's just a rumour. A fairly natural one. The king died in an unusual way? Maybe his Hand with the reputation for subtly killing people off did it. But why would he do that? Maybe for himself? Maybe, but he was a dutiful man. Maybe he did it to serve the realm. Why? Well, Baelor was a Targaryen after all, maybe he was starting to go more dangerously insane and decided to kill off all non-believers. And... told Viserys or something, and he decided to take care of it the usual way? Yeah, that might be it.

I doubt there is any solid proof whatsoever one way or the other.

But going back to what caused this tangent, the fact that this was discussed as a serious possibility does suggest that maybe, under some circumstances, it might happen... Way less likely than a religious war in vanilla, but then, that doesn't happen much anyway, does it? Zealous characters on both sides would still have good reasons to dislike each other though.

 

[Gordreg]

All things in all, the faith of the seven and that of the Old Gods are supposed to in lore mostly have an understanding with one another, with most great castles of the realm having both sept and godswood; this unfortunately hasn't translated well into CK2's religion mechanics.

Perhaps there should be an 'Old gods and the new' event that could fire which, unless the character is Zealous, could give characters worshiping the old gods or the seven the tolerance modifier toward the other faith?

 

[Ed Mike]

All things in all, the faith of the seven and that of the Old Gods are supposed to in lore mostly have an understanding with one another, with most great castles of the realm having both sept and godswood; this unfortunately hasn't translated well into CK2's religion mechanics.

Perhaps there should be an 'Old gods and the new' event that could fire which, unless the character is Zealous, could give characters worshiping the old gods or the seven the tolerance modifier toward the other faith?

This sounds like the best solution, given people in Westeros tend, for instance, to make promises for and marriage in the rites of "the gods old and new". A level of overall ecumenicism that can't really be compared to the Catholic vs Orthodox relations in CK timeframe. Tolerance trait for anyone without "Zealous" would do the trick.
The only problem would be that having most of the continent having the same trait can be seen by some as a little aesthetically... "dirty" (I'm not sure if this is the exact word, since English is not my first language).

 

[Ed Mike]

Does Zealous bring a fixed relationship malus on itself or a multiplier of the -10 from religious difference?
Because if it's the second case, maybe it would work to lower the ordinary religious difference penalty for these two faiths.

Personally I would say to zero, since having a godswood in every castle of lords who have worshiped the Seven for a thousand years without most of them being thorn down seems a lot like both realigions are a part of each other cultural fixture.

 

[NakedFury]

Perhaps a new trait for the religious tolerance between.
- Old and New: religious tolerance between Old Gods and Seven. Character can't be a Zealous or any other anti religion stuff. Can be a Priest of the religions.
- Another idea would be a sort of trait for northern vassals of the Seven that will negate it because they are in the land of the Old Gods. While they could still be of the Seven faith they wont have any negative view on Old Gods worshipers and Old Gods worshiper wont mind them either. Anyone outside the north is open game.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

The opinion penalty for refusing fosterage/heritage focus should be removed. It just screws up gameplay in a really stupid manner.