Some allied tanks should get White Phosphorus shells

[Claremont Waltz]

I've mentioned this before, but I haven't really done a post on it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_munitions

At the start of the Normandy campaign, 20% of American 81 mm mortar rounds were white phosphorus. At least five American Medal of Honor citations mention their recipients using white phosphorus grenades to clear enemy positions, and in the 1944 liberation of Cherbourg alone, a single U.S. mortar battalion, the 87th, fired 11,899 white phosphorus rounds into the city. The U.S. Army and Marines used white phosphorus shells in 107-mm (4.2 inch) mortars. White phosphorus was widely credited by Allied soldiers for breaking up German infantry attacks and creating havoc among enemy troop concentrations during the latter part of the war. US Sherman tanks carried a white phosphorus round intended for artillery spotting, but tank crews found it useful against German tanks. Unable to penetrate German Panther and Tiger tanks at long range, the phosphorus round would adhere to the tank, generate smoke, blind the optics, and often force the crew to abandon the tank or allow US tanks to close to a range where their armor piercing rounds were effective.

Max Hastings (in his history of Overlord and the Normandy campaign) and Steven Zaloga (in his history of the Sherman) both mention white phosphorus. It was an important and under represented tool of tank combat that could go a long way toward helping new players enjoy the game, which if properly implemented wouldn't screw up balance for more experienced players.

I'm thinking Eugen should give a limited number of white phosphorus shells for Allied tanks dedicated to tank hunting (the 76 Sherman, the M10, and the Firefly but NOT the M18, Sherman 75 and others) that would have a high chance of inflicting crew stunned (and a very, very small chance of bailing out the tank, less than 1%) and a good whack of suppression. These would be auto fired at an enemy tank with higher armor than the WP shell equipped tank can penetrate, but could be force fired by turning off the AP shells. We don't want it to be hot key managed like smoke or this game will get stupid fast in 1v1. I'm thinking 2 or 3 shells with a long reload time, not something that can be spammed.

This might require the addition of an animation and a little art, but the rest of it could probably be implemented pretty easily.

Why is this necessary?

* as Axis supporting arms (and AA in general) improve, the standard easy counter of throwing planes at heavy armor becomes less and less viable. This is probably a good thing, but it does have ramifications

* anyone who has watched a new player struggle against German heavy armor will know that combined arms, smoke and coordinating tanks with AT guns is way too high a micro burden to inflict, especially on open maps.

* large team games on undersized maps become late game armor spamfests that Germans usually win by default by attack moving forward unless a skilled player shatters their offensive before it gets going.

All of these have ramifications for the all important issue of player retention. New players who get drilled in the ass by what looks like easy mode Axis armor will quit and bitch about balance even though experienced players know balance is actually pretty good right now.

I see this as a tool that punishes poor play by a an Axis player. They move an unsupported KT forward, it gets nailed by WP, and then enemy tanks roll to the side sufficient to nail it with a sideshot or forward to the point that AP scaling makes it a fair fight before moving on. A supported tank with AT guns or armor covering it will recover from the momentary issue and continue forward. Good use of WP and keeping it disabled until needed would become a standard and interesting part of allied play. There might need to be some price nerfs to compensate for this powerful new tool, but I'm confident it could be done.

 

[Jonnydodger]

I could see that being really OP. Basically giving mainly AT tanks a hard counter to their hard counters.

 

[Claremont Waltz]

I could see that being really OP. Basically giving mainly AT tanks a hard counter to their hard counters.

It could be, but I kind of doubt it. Axis tanks tend to be higher vet and accuracy, so in a head on fight they're more likely to shoot and to hit first. Much of the time the Allied tank will probably die as its WP shell whistles by uselessly.

You'd still have to micro things carefully to get the shot, and the vehicles I recommend get the shells are either expensive enough to be something you can't throw away or are equipped with a slow turret and can't nose poke for easy flank stuns.

 

[Jonnydodger]

It could be, but I kind of doubt it. Axis tanks tend to be higher vet and accuracy, so in a head on fight they're more likely to shoot and to hit first. Much of the time the Allied tank will probably die as its WP shell whistles by uselessly.

You'd still have to micro things carefully to get the shot, and the vehicles I recommend get the shells are either expensive enough to be something you can't throw away or are equipped with a slow turret and can't nose poke for easy flank stuns.

I'm not talking about tanks, I'm talking about AT guns. Think about it. You have a AT gun hidden in a bocage. The enemy moves up a Wolverine. Your gun takes the first shot, revealing itself and missing. Normally, the enemy player would retreat his M10 and then proceed to attack the area with artillery. Except you've given him WP shells. All he has to do is fire one shell at your AT gun and that's it. Best case scenario it's vision is blocked and it can't fire at the M10. Worst case he lands near or hits your AT gun, pinning it down and forcing it to retreat. Which is unfair.

 

[Claremont Waltz]

@Jonnydodger

I envision WP only being useful against tanks. I agree that having it work against towed weapons and infantry is a can of worms I don't think should be opened.

 

[Hidden Gunman]

WP has limited effect as a screening/smoke agent, as it pillars and clears quickly, which is why a large number of rounds over time are needed to create an effective screen. The use of WP as a weapon is limited by the fact that the phosphorous crusts over, and moving through the contaminated zone has a high likelihood of getting it on yourself...it does happen and it's a hell of a job to clear it off boots, etc (the preferred method as a field expedient is to burn it off, which doesn't help if it's on your boots).

Game wise though, it would be a double edged asset. If the allies get it, everyone should get it. The likelihood is that a 'poor' or new player wouldn't use it in any case, as lack of understanding or knowledge of the game is the main problem they face.

I should also point out that currently the majority of nations consider WP to be a 'chemical weapon' and apply the various international treaty limitations on it's use in war (the US and Israel weren't of that view back in my day, though. I don't know if that has changed though). Not sure how Eugen would feel about simulating something that is frowned upon in a game.

 

[I WUB PUGS]

Not sure how Eugen would feel about simulating something that is frowned upon in a game.

There are actual Nazis portrayed in the game.

A couple of smoke shells shouldn't be triggering.

 

[Karlburg]

I think shermans are good enough as is, and the game probably doesn't need a click-button ability for them.

 

[IronHat]

The white phosphorus would be an insanely powerful item for the allies to possess, especially for tanks.

If the game is going to add WP, it would need to be on a new unit.

 

[Claremont Waltz]

WP has limited effect as a screening/smoke agent, as it pillars and clears quickly, which is why a large number of rounds over time are needed to create an effective screen. The use of WP as a weapon is limited by the fact that the phosphorous crusts over, and moving through the contaminated zone has a high likelihood of getting it on yourself...it does happen and it's a hell of a job to clear it off boots, etc (the preferred method as a field expedient is to burn it off, which doesn't help if it's on your boots).

Game wise though, it would be a double edged asset. If the allies get it, everyone should get it. The likelihood is that a 'poor' or new player wouldn't use it in any case, as lack of understanding or knowledge of the game is the main problem they face.

I should also point out that currently the majority of nations consider WP to be a 'chemical weapon' and apply the various international treaty limitations on it's use in war (the US and Israel weren't of that view back in my day, though. I don't know if that has changed though). Not sure how Eugen would feel about simulating something that is frowned upon in a game.

Multiple historians have noted US tankers using WP shells on enemy tanks, and it was a weapon of choice for many years before and after WW2. The US military loved that shit.

With regard to use against WW2 German tanks by US tankers, the substance gets sucked in through the intake and causes coughing, eye irritation and burning skin for the crew inside. Often they would leave the tank entirely. It was common enough that Sherman crews knew to wait and machine gun the enemy crew as they existed. At no point was it used as a screening agent, they just shot it at people and waited for results.

Obviously anything close to historically accurate WP usage would snap balance like a twig. Can you imagine if US mortars were spamming fire everywhere? I'd uninstall. But the tank shell bit - - if limited and accounted for in unit price - - could be interesting, useful and a decent counterweight to Axis superheavies.

 

[Miskyavine]

@Jonnydodger

I envision WP only being useful against tanks. I agree that having it work against towed weapons and infantry is a can of worms I don't think should be opened.

Why only usefull on the one type it wasnt in reallife? it was great for maiming infantry and knocking out AT guns. It was situational at best for other tanks.

The white phosphorus would be an insanely powerful item for the allies to possess, especially for tanks.

If the game is going to add WP, it would need to be on a new unit.

Oh great another game were standard issue American equipment can be relegated to a single unit or a few over priced garbage vehicles WP was standard issue on almost all tanks from the M8 Scott to the M4 shermans infact there was only a few tanks that really didnt have it was the 76s even the M4-105 had WP tho it wasnt as common as the 75mm ones.


The only thing i can imagine is how would the engine handle it its almost never done right in games its either to powerfull or useless... But it might aswell be to powerfull thats the trend with Steel Division when it comes to AA and Arty so...

Also an interesting counter balance would be making all the german long barrelled 75s thr 1200 meter range they probably should have.

 

[Hidden Gunman]

Multiple historians have noted US tankers using WP shells on enemy tanks, and it was a weapon of choice for many years before and after WW2. The US military loved that shit.

With regard to use against WW2 German tanks by US tankers, the substance gets sucked in through the intake and causes coughing, eye irritation and burning skin for the crew inside. Often they would leave the tank entirely. It was common enough that Sherman crews knew to wait and machine gun the enemy crew as they existed. At no point was it used as a screening agent, they just shot it at people and waited for results.

Obviously anything close to historically accurate WP usage would snap balance like a twig. Can you imagine if US mortars were spamming fire everywhere? I'd uninstall. But the tank shell bit - - if limited and accounted for in unit price - - could be interesting, useful and a decent counterweight to Axis superheavies.

I'm a former ammunition officer, I know what the stuff is capable of...I also know its' limitations. The US tankers were forced to resort to desperate measures because their tank guns were crap, basically. WP were smoke shells, end of story. Anti-personnel use is a field expedient...give us some references to support your 'weapon of choice' argument, and particularly your reference to the never being used a smoke/screening agent claim. Until then, I'm calling BS on your claims it was standard practice.

 

[Claremont Waltz]

@Hidden Gunman

I'm just gonna quote Zaloga Armored Thunderbolt (history of Sherman in WW2) at you. One thing that annoys me about this is that I have to admit that the 75mm Sherman, not the 76mm, had the WP shell, which to me is a bad idea from a balance perspective because they're cheap and spammy and tons of decks have them.

I was wrong about the screening agent bit. From my reading it mostly wasn't used that way because crews preferred to retain their WP shells for combat use, but I overstated my case. If you want more detail than this you'll have to find a WP focused history.

The rest is all him since fuck this forum's quote formatting crap :

"As there were no quick fixes to the Panther problem, the U.S. tankers again used their own initiative to come up with stopgap solutions. A number of tank battalions fighting in the bocage learned that the new 75mm white phosphorus (“Willy Pete”) smoke round had some unexpected advantages. When fired against a German tank, it gave the Sherman a temporary advantage since the panzer would be blinded for a minute or more, and then the Sherman could make maneuver and engage the enemy from its weaker side or rear. In many cases, the acrid white phosphorous smoke would get sucked into the panzer by its ventilating fan and become so unbearable that the panzer crew would abandon the tank. Sherman crews soon learned to fire a “Willy Pete” smoke round at a well-positioned panzer, wait a few seconds for the smoke to take effect, and then machine-gun the tank in hopes of killing the crew. This tactic didn’t work every time, but it offered one approach for dealing with a determined opponent. Army observer teams took note of the tactic, and special “combat lessons learned” were passed around to inform other tank units of the discovery.

The most effective antidote to the Panther was the discovery of its Achilles heel. It had long been known that the Panther had weak side armor, so maneuvering to attack its side was already a well-established tactic, often aided by the Willy Pete smoke trick... "

<... >

" There was no consensus about the new 76mm Shermans, even by the late autumn of 1944. Many experienced armored divisions still preferred to have a mix of 75mm and 76mm Shermans because of the better high-explosive firepower of the 75mm gun. In addition, the new white phosphorus “Willy Pete” smoke round, introduced in Normandy and available only for the 75mm gun, proved very useful in combat in 1944. Although originally intended to create smoke screens for concealment, U.S. tankers found that the round had good incendiary effects, so it was often used to start fires in buildings that were under attack."

<... >

"The attitude toward the Sherman in the autumn of 1944 was summed up in a November 1944 interview by the War Department Observers Board with Maj. Gen. Robert Grow, commander of the 6th Armored Division in Patton’s Third Army and one of the best American tank commanders. Grow told the board: Our tanks are alright. We have mainly 75mm guns. I’d like to have a platoon of 76mm guns, M4A3 tanks in every company. That would be sufficient. We like the 75HE better than the 76 and we use a lot of WP. I don’t want to lose the smoke, that WP is very effective in village fighting. I’ve recommended that in the future we have two-thirds of our tanks with 105mm howitzers and one third with 90mm guns. With this set-up I’d give some of each to each company. This recommendation was based on our experiences and I’ll admit we haven’t had any tank versus tank fights; those that have had will probably have a different attitude."

<... >

"Fortifications and buildings represented the most common targets for tank guns, accounting for 39 percent of targets. Enemy troops were the next most common target at about 16 percent, while enemy AFVs amounted to about 14 percent. Enemy anti-tank guns and artillery were about 13 percent and wheeled vehicles about 8 percent. This meant that Shermans generally carried and employed far more high-explosive ammunition than armor-piercing ammunition. A typical mix was 60 percent high explosive, 30 percent armor piercing, and 10 percent white phosphorus smoke. Some units such as the 746th Tank Battalion carried as little as 15 percent armor-piercing ammunition since they were mostly involved in infantry support and seldom encountered enemy tanks."

 

[Miskyavine]

So yea used extensively seems like an understatement. Literally no reason not to have them... And like i said before if the 75mm Shermans get it standard the flip could be made that all the Panzer 4s get the 1200 meter range all the axis players want. Shermans would be better at killing infantry and emplacements while Panzer 4s had a edge in tank vs tank, And really if both those changes were made prices really wouldnt even need to be touched.

I imagine WP could be implemeted two ways a Smoke round with a smaller napalm effect wich really is not that great of a representation or a Smoke round with high instant HE but nothing after wich more accurate of representation.

But while were talking about ammo i would also like to bring up the 105 and the even shorter 75 on the M8 Scott also had HEAT rounds. so that would be neat to look into.

 

[Karlburg]

The problem is 1200m HE is really powerful in a support sense as well and then every panzer IV or stug is now a 1200m he carrier.

 

[Jonnydodger]

Too much trouble for what they're worth.

 

[Miskyavine]

The problem is 1200m HE is really powerful in a support sense as well and then every panzer IV or stug is now a 1200m he carrier.

1200 range AP 1000 range HE problem solved.

 

[Apolyon]

No, you complexify the game if a same weapon have two different range according to the round. No WP and keep the balance as it is.

 

[IronHat]

Obviously anything close to historically accurate WP usage would snap balance like a twig. Can you imagine if US mortars were spamming fire everywhere? I'd uninstall.

so the US mortar would be acting like the Axis rocket artillery?

 

[Miskyavine]

No, you complexify the game if a same weapon have two different range according to the round. No WP and keep the balance as it is.

If you want simplicity Company of Heroes goes on sale pretty often on steam. I , like many other people are drawn to Steel Division due to its complex nature the tactics involved and the semi realistic representation of units ingame (still better then wargames laughable representation of certain units) Many guns HE shells had lower ranges then AP in reallife including the Panzer 4s KWK L48 the 76 on the Shermans was the same way. infact almost all high velocity cannons had lower ranges on HE shells then normal shells. were guns like the low velocity 75 on the Shermans had rather equal range due to the gun itself.

WP was an important part of a tank loadout in WW2 denying that is like denying US infantry the M1 Garand and instead giving them M1903 Springfields becuase the M1 is to powerfull (Men of War actually did that btw) and that is stupid.