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Voidian

Colonel
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Jun 11, 2015
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  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
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  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
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It's just mildly annoying in the early game, specially because the map doesn't show you anything about infrastructure when you're trying to build railways, and you have to keep doing the math on how much you'll need every time you try to queue a bunch of buildings.

But I'd say late game they are simply broken.

Once states start running out of manpower lack of infrastructures create death spirals, and they tend to happen everywhere as factories run out of workers, start increasing wages, pulling people from railroads, which decreases infrastructures, makes everything unprofitable and every business collapses, if you don't notice it's happening it's often too late to fix the issue.

The alternative is subsidies, but then you usually end up paying for a bunch of unproductive railways you could turn into profitable ones, because you have 100 states to manage and you can't guess which ones really are unproductive unless you start looking one by one every few years.

And then there are the incentives, if they don't look unproductive AI tends to build them sometimes, making the problem even worse.
Ports also suffer from this, it seems late game their only purpose is being sold to canal companies so they can lose their productivity bonus.

Are there plans to address this? The mechanic works in theory, but it's a mess in practice, maybe transportation could increase infrastructure? Maybe if the trade center bought it to create more infrastrcuture and use it as needed? Not sure what could be done, but it's a pain to try to make them profitable by building a bunch of resource buildings with rail transportation PM only to watch the eternal icons of of "missing input goods" in every state until the end of the game, and still facing problems because of this.


Oh, also, while it's not the same, energy plants have a similar vibe, they are really annoying to build, construction filters/info is very lacking, and the private sector doesn't seem to be able to handle either very well.
 
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Yeah late game does feel kinda bad with infrastructure because your building normally and a minute later the state is burning down. To minimize it you need a railroad and motor company and that railway perk in power blocs.
 
I consistently subsidize railways, ports, and power plants. Of course, some of that is wasted.
As things stand, I don't think it's a big burden compared to the paper consumed by the government.
 
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This. And IDK if it's me, but buildings do not seem to lower their levels enough when not profitable sometimes.

When it comes to railways, what i found to work somehow is making railways stay at level one production method and setting them on autoexpand without subsidies. Somehow they ahire more than lvl 2 PM and it balances itself out without subsidies, but it's still not perfect.


Never thought I'd say this but I actually prefer railways from Vic2 which weren't interactive at all lol
 
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I consistently subsidize railways, ports, and power plants. Of course, some of that is wasted.
As things stand, I don't think it's a big burden compared to the paper consumed by the government.
So. Much. Paper.

Also, it seems like to meet my transport demand, infrastructure is effectively infinite at the 1880s in my game. I’m just starting to think about opening up telephones and automobiles which should help that, but it definitely feels like it’s out of whack in the mid game.
 
So. Much. Paper.

Also, it seems like to meet my transport demand, infrastructure is effectively infinite at the 1880s in my game. I’m just starting to think about opening up telephones and automobiles which should help that, but it definitely feels like it’s out of whack in the mid game.
It is, until the construction queue hits 20k and now you're stuck doing the math again because you're setting up 60 factories all at once in multiple states and you're not sure if they are going to nuke the infrastructure of some of them
 
It is, until the construction queue hits 20k and now you're stuck doing the math again because you're setting up 60 factories all at once in multiple states and you're not sure if they are going to nuke the infrastructure of some of them
That's why I no longer play without some mods, like one that adds a button above construction queue, that when clicked upon, it adds enough railways to building queue to balance infra.

Transportation is a joke tho :D
 
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Infrastructure threshold has been vestigial ever since MAPI was introduced it should simply be a modifier on transportation costs in the state with more infrastructure requiring more transportation. Further multiplied by state traits like waterways and other geographic features or perhaps even convoys.

This would also immediately solve the conundrum of building railroads to boost infrastructure tanking transportation prices when a higher demand for transportation through infrastructure needs should balance transportation prices. You would then simply have transportation being expensive in some states if it has high infrastructure which could be alleviated hy railroads and urban centers.
 
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Infrastructure should represent the cap on the supply of transportation. Imagine you're a truck driver moving goods between cities A and B and there is only a single road connecting them. The truck represents the supply of transportation, the goods in the truck represent the demand side of transportation and the road represents Infrastructure. Then the maximum volume of transportation and therefore trade between the two cities is determined by the width of the road. When trade demand exceeds that maximum volume, you to make choices what goods you want to transport since you can't transport them all, so price differences between cities A and B will occur or at very least they will be exacerbated. The question now is at what point is it worthwhile to build an additional road lane
 
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It is, until the construction queue hits 20k and now you're stuck doing the math again because you're setting up 60 factories all at once in multiple states and you're not sure if they are going to nuke the infrastructure of some of them
It’s funny, in a but over a decade it has flipped. I’m building so much railroad for infrastructure that transport in many states is effectively infinite.

It means that railroads have to be subsidized. I tried removing subsidies and my economy started crashing.

I’m just getting more and more unsatisfied with the infrastructure/transportation gameplay loop. It never seems to be balanced and make sense.
 
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Something Funny, I noticed Tasmania in a few of my games has had -1 infrastructure, yes apparently you can get less then 0 infrastructure and that place was defiantly burning to the ground. Might want to increase its base infrastructure by 2.
 
A stopgap could be to just have railways provide all (or some portion) of their infrastructure regardless of employment. Disable autonomous downsizing and now you've got much less cantankerous infrastructure. You still have the issues of having to math out number of railways for a given number of buildings, but at least you don't have to worry about subsidizing a 100 stack of 0 productivity private rails.

Would still have issues, as the ownership building of these unemployed rails would have no income, but I'm sure something could be figured out.
 
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It’s funny, in a but over a decade it has flipped. I’m building so much railroad for infrastructure that transport in many states is effectively infinite.

It means that railroads have to be subsidized. I tried removing subsidies and my economy started crashing.

I’m just getting more and more unsatisfied with the infrastructure/transportation gameplay loop. It never seems to be balanced and make sense.
The most annoying part is that resource & agriculture need transportation, but factories don't.

Well factories are infinite, resources & land are not, at some point if you develop well enouugh you're bound to reach a point in which transportation services are no longer profitable.
 
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A stopgap could be to just have railways provide all (or some portion) of their infrastructure regardless of employment. Disable autonomous downsizing and now you've got much less cantankerous infrastructure. You still have the issues of having to math out number of railways for a given number of buildings, but at least you don't have to worry about subsidizing a 100 stack of 0 productivity private rails.

Would still have issues, as the ownership building of these unemployed rails would have no income, but I'm sure something could be figured out.

Posted the exact same idea on the discord server and many folks over there could not see why that is. An infrastructure is build, once it is there it does not matter how much it is used. In V3 the number of operated railways can be decreased with better PMS, but their initial infrastructure stays, like bridges, tunnels and tracks. It does not matter much if it is crossed once or 20 times a week, it still there.

I agree that it has to be replaced at some point with a local transportation system that also replaces mapi, where local businesses buy transportation for goods that are not used or produced locally.
 
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The difficulty is that currently infrastructure abstracts transport costs of goods over land besides providing the capacity to transport them:


The PM that pay transport goods are automating buildings internal transport not the actual transport cost that is included in infrastructure. That is the reason that manufactories do not pay transport costs because they do not have internal transport that can be automated like a Mine or a Lumber Mill:

1752492070720.png


Devs are thinking about a logistics rework that gives back some of the abstraction of infrastructure but we do not know yet how far they will go.

There is this quote from WIZ about a logistics rework down the road: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rework-the-world-market.1733205/post-30256997

There is this thread discussing the logistics rework: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/logistics-rework.1735472/
 
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A solution is partial subsidy that only subsidize until there's enough infrastructure and transportation is reasonably cheap like -15%. Not just subsidy like crazy OR not at all. (and the same goes for electricity)
 
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Logistics rework over diplomatic play rework at this point IMO. Both are big pain points, but I think infrastructure, logistics and PMs are now feeling really bad.
 
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