Song Dynasty

[siafu]

Current background:

Founded in AD 960, the Song Dynasty brought an end to the chaotic Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period that followed the collapse of the Tang Dynasty in AD 907. The Northern Song prospered until 1127, when an invasion by the Jurchid from the northeast created the Jin Dynasty in the north, when the Song Emperor moved his court south to Kaifeng and continued to rule as the Southern Song dynasty. The Song continued to decline in the latter half of the 12th century until the Mongol invasion of 1258. Only the untimely death of Qubilai in 1260 prevented the complete conquest of the now weak and calcified Song state. As it was, Song was forced to cede all lands north of the Yangzi river to the Mongols.

Even this crisis failed to rejuvenate the faltering dynasty, which continued to decline under the Emperor Ganzong and Haizong, until the eastern half of the empire rebelled in 1357, forming the Wei dynasty, forcing the emperor Linzong to flee to Guangzhou, where he reestablished his court. It seemed that Song would continue to shrink and collapse into nothing, or be overwhelmed by the Wei, or their newer northern neighbors, the Ming. Only the brilliant rule of Wuzhi Di from 1365-1400 managed to pull the state out of chaos and bring order and some prosperity to the people.

In 1419, Song is at a crossroads. Either it can try to recapture its former glory and unify Tianxia, perhaps even hoping to rebuild the empire to the extend of the Tang dynasty, or forget about the dream of Tianxia after almost five hundred years and move into an uncertain future of a forever divided China.

 

[siafu]

At start:

Owned and controlled: 657, 658, 659, 661, 1555, 1566

National provs: All above + 660 (Hainan), and 1567, 654, 655, 656, 653.

Cultures : Han, Cantonese

Capital in 658, Guangzhou

CoT in 657, Kowloon

Medium army (~15,000), small navy (<10 ships)

DP:

Aristocracy: 9
Centralization: 3
Innovativeness: 2
Mercantilism: 8
Offensive: 2
Land: 7
Quality: 3
Serdom: 8

Starting monarch is Junzong, 6/5/6.

Starting stability is +1.

 

[siafu]

~1421 (sometime twixt game start and the death of Jun Zong in 1423)

Event name: "Two Rulers, Five Generals"
"The years of Mongol invasion and imperial decline in the Song court have led to a decentralized state ruled primarily by local warlords who have managed to keep invaders at bay and have held together only loosely for the last one century and a half. Now, however, with the Mongol threat no longer pressing, and the Son of Heaven unable to muster support for a war to reconquer the land lost to the Wei insurgents, the Song warlords are turning on each other."

A: "Ai ya! Is there nothing we can do?"
-1 Stab.
Revolt risk +1 everywhere
Trigger "Revolt of Lau Hon Fai" event in six months

Event name: "Revolt of Lau Hon Fai"
"General Lau Hon Fai, a veteran of the war with the Wei insurgency, has lost respect for the Song court. He ignores the will of Heaven and wantonly raids the neighboring countryside."

A: "We shall entreat our other generals to defeat this rebel."
-50D
Gain the services of Zhang Miao
Gain the services of Fu Zhan
Aristocracy +1
Trigger flag for "Zhang and Fu are feuding!" event
Centralization -1
Stab. +1
Gain 2500 infantry in Hunan
Gain 2500 cavalry in Hunan
Same amount of troops in Guangxi

B: "We shall raise our own army to defeat him."
-100D
Aristocracy -1
Centralization -1
Stab -1
Gain 3000 infantry in Guangzhou
Gain 3000 cavalry in Guangzhuo

Both A and B: Revolt in Kowloon, Revolt in Guangdong, RR +1 everywhere.

 

[siafu]

~1425 (after the death of Jun Zong, during the reign of Ding Zong)

Event name: "Zhang and Fu are feuding!"
"Having defeated the rebel Lau Hon Fai, our Generals Zhang Miao and Fu Zhan have turned on each other and ignore Imperial authority. To support their feud, they too are raiding the countryside and creating chaos amongst the hundred surnames."

A: Perhaps another warlord will be more loyal...
-30D
Gain the services of Lau Chou.
Gain 2000 infantry in Guizhou
Gain 2000 cavalry in Guizhou
Aristocracy +1
Centralization -1
Trigger "The fate of Lau Chou" event in 2 yearsish.

B: These generals are unreliable; use our own troops.
-60D
Gain 3000 infantry in Guangzhou
Gain 3000 cavalry in Guangzhou
Stab -1
Centralization +1
Aristocracy -1

Both A and B: revolt in Hunan, revolt in Guangxi, RR +1 everywhere

 

[ZhugeKongming]

I don't know how set the details of the Song's history need to be, but I always thought a cool point of divergence would be Yue Fei's campaigns against the Jurchen. Let's say, for example, that he ignores Gaozong's retraction. Or maybe Gaozong ignores his advisors and never recalls Yue Fei in the first place. This could possibly set up a civil war in the dynasty's past if Qinzong is rescued, or just result in the Song being in a somewhat stronger position than they are now (i.e., the outline you've written in the Asia thread).

Just a suggestion.

 

[siafu]

Event name: "The Fate of Lau Chou"
"The generals Zhang and Fu have been defeated, but now Lau Chou seeks greater power in the Song court. Serving the Son of Heaven should be reward enough, but perhaps some recompense would help to bring an end to the chaos."

A: Appoint him head of the army and navy.
Monarchs MIL +2
Aristocracy +1
Stab +1
-10D

B: Placate him with lands in the west.
BVT in Guizhou -2
RR in Guizhou +1

C: Punish this upstart!
RR +1
-1 Stab
Revolt in Guizhou

 

[siafu]

I don't know how set the details of the Song's history need to be, but I always thought a cool point of divergence would be Yue Fei's campaigns against the Jurchen. Let's say, for example, that he ignores Gaozong's retraction. Or maybe Gaozong ignores his advisors and never recalls Yue Fei in the first place. This could possibly set up a civil war in the dynasty's past if Qinzong is rescued, or just result in the Song being in a somewhat stronger position than they are now (i.e., the outline you've written in the Asia thread).

According to MattyG the divergence happens around 1200; Yue Fei was executed in 1142. I don't get the impression that the 1200 date is set in stoned, but that's why I didn't consider any events earlier than that.

The only thing that seems to be very clear from all the discussions prior and, apparently, playtesting, China needs to be divided. This is also fitting with the "vision" statement linked from one of the sticky threads. If the Jurchen had not been successful against the Northern Song and created the Jin dynasty, we'd have to come up with an alternate means of getting there.

There's also the Mongol invasion, and this one I think is an actual problem and not just an obstacle. The Il-Khanate, the Golden Horde, and the Chagatai Khanate all exist in 6.35, so clearly Genghis Khan did at least conquer Khwarezm-Shah/Khwarezmia and launch Subutai and Jebe on the Great Raid, but if Song had not failed against the Jin, it's not necessarily clear that the Mongols would have attacked China. It was really only Jin's weakness that made them such an alluring target in the first place.

For that matter, there are a lot more problems, but they're not insurmountable. There is a "Mongolia" nation in China in 6.35, which I'm treating as the Khanate under Ariq Boke after the fracturing of the Mongol Empire after the civil war with Qubilai (who in this history lost). We'd have to seriously change it (there would be no Qubilai w/o his power base in China) or rework the chronology.

I suppose we could make it work, if we want. I think, though, that we should discuss it on the Asia thread instead, so that this one can be mostly events/stats/things that will be turned into actual script for the mod (hopefully).

 

[MattyG]

The 1200 date is not set in stone.

Consider, thpough, that the further back you establish the diverging of history, the more you have to rethink where things are now and - more significantly - what the FLAVOUR of the region is.

If we assume that the Mongols did not take over China, then how have han and Cantonese cultures developed? Are they more advanced technologically? Less advanced? What of their governments? These questions are critical, as the development of a good event/monarcg/leader files depends on capturing something of the identity of the culture.

So, you can chose to rebuild from any point that really excites you, so long as you carefully consider the ramifications for the region and express the changes that have taken place.

Going back a long way does, of course, give you more licence. But here at Interregnum we don't want the mod to be too fantastical. Plausibility is important. We cannot simply say ... the Mongols did not invade, the Song were overthrown by a new dynasty who advanced the technology greatly and they developed gunpower more aggressively and start on land tech 14 in 1419. Sorry, that would be too much like a fantasy mod, even if you wrote the history out in a detailed way. Not that that's what you are suggesting, I'm just making a general point.

Which is why 1200-ish worked for the European/Miditerranean region. A lot of significant events happened in the period, and we have been able to effectively extrapolate what might of been if it hadn't have been.

 

[siafu]

Eventname: The Fate of Lau Chou
"After years of internal strife, General Lau, having defeated the rebels, has finally created some semblance of order in the countryside. His victory comes with its own price, of course, as now there are none to challenge his ambition. What shall we do with this man?"

A: Like Yue Fei before him, he must die!
RR + 1 everywhere
revolt in Guizhou
Lose Lau Chou (duh)
-1 Stab

B: Placate him with lands in the west.
-10D
BVT in Guizhou -2
Lose Lau Chou

C: Retain him at court.
-20D
Monarch's MIL +3
-1 Stab


~2 years later
Eventname: "Revolt of Ma Fei!"
#This one plays out in one of two ways; if option A is picked above, it's like this:
"Seizing the opportunity created by the loss of Lan Chou and his leadership, the rebel Ma Fei is expanding his control in the north. What shall we do, Son of Heaven?"
A: Ai ya!
Revolt in Hunan x 2.

#If options B or C were picked, it's like this:

"The sucess and reward of Lan Chou has created envy and resentment amongst the other warlords. One, Ma Fei, is stirring up unrest in the north and calling for equal treatment of all the nobles. Lan Chou has petitioned the court to be allowed to teach General Ma some respect, but many are growing wary of his power, and believe that this Ma Fei should be heeded. Whose policy shall we favor?"

A: Support Lan Chou.
Sleep Ma Fei.
Revolt in Hunan x 2.
RR + 1 in Hunan.
+1 Centralization
+1 Stab

B: Support Ma Fei.
-1 Stab
Lose Lan Chou.
Wake Ma Fei.
Gain 3K infantry and cavalry in Hunan.
Revolt in Guizhou x2
RR + 1 in Guizhou.
+1 Aristocracy.
Monarch's MIL -2.

 

[MattyG]

I have coded up most of the events you have here, with some changes and additions, but I am stuck on the second Fate of Lau Chou event.

Why a second one? What is it that differentiates it from an initial Lau Chou event?

 

[siafu]

Why a second one? What is it that differentiates it from an initial Lau Chou event?

My mistake; the second one is the one I meant. I'm hoping someone has an opinion on the events themselves also, of course.

 

[MattyG]

Don't expect too many comments, if any. people just don't seem to, unless the events are really significant.

In writing up the events, as with all the events I assist on, read, write or encounter in play, my reaction is always ... so now what? Because the past informs the future, good events always have consequences for the future, for the development of the direction of the country. I always look for what will result from my choices.

If I have a repressive regime, will it lead to revolts? What will the character of thiose revolts be? Could this culture develop a form of egalitarianism that leads to popular revolution? If so, under what future conditions and choices. And then how will that revolution be expressed, and what are the country-specific outcomes?

So, with these events I think, "OK, cool, political strife, warlords, revolts, all good stuff" (so to speak). Now where does it lead? This must effect the political climate. If the Song survive, will it be under the premise that the country needs to be more centralized to avoid this kind of thing in the future, or will its response be to decentralize? Will the emperors become mere figureheads under a long series of warlord-dominated regimes (as in Shogun Japan). Should there be additional events to represent the victory of Lau Chou or Zhang or one of the others?

So, this is a great start, but it only leaves my mouth watering for the next installment.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

Don't expect too many comments, if any. people just don't seem to, unless the events are really significant.

Agreed, Flavour events are important and all, but they're just not nearly as exciting as larger earthshattering events, that said your events seem to be good, but most of them seem to just hand out gold, troops or lower stability, and generally affect the short term, I suggest you tackle some of the nice meaty large scale, game changing events! You can expect lots of good feedback on those

 

[MattyG]

Siafu,

I have the files done. Let me know your email address so you can run them and see if that's what you wanted.

Matty

 

[siafu]

Siafu,

I have the files done. Let me know your email address so you can run them and see if that's what you wanted.

Matty

I'm getting an error trying to start a game as Song with the files you sent me. In particular it says that it can't open "wake of war.txt" in /db/events/Random_Events. My intuition is that I would just need to remove the line mentioning this file from events.txt. Would that work?

EDIT: I realized it was kind of stupid to ask if it would work when I could just do it. The answer is no, that didn't work; that error went away and now it just crashes.

 

[MattyG]

Sorry, tried to send you all the files I could remember that were different.

Go to events.txt and find the line this line


event = "db\events\Random_Events\wake_of_war.txt"

and then either delete it or

# event = "db\events\Random_Events\wake_of_war.txt"

place an asterix in front of sorry.

If that haopens for another file, you now know what to do.

Matty

 

[siafu]

MattyG sez:

So, with these events I think, "OK, cool, political strife, warlords, revolts, all good stuff" (so to speak). Now where does it lead? This must effect the political climate. If the Song survive, will it be under the premise that the country needs to be more centralized to avoid this kind of thing in the future, or will its response be to decentralize? Will the emperors become mere figureheads under a long series of warlord-dominated regimes (as in Shogun Japan). Should there be additional events to represent the victory of Lau Chou or Zhang or one of the others?

As for the victories of any of the others, I don't know. The idea is that these revolts represent the erosion of the power of the Song court; I'll try to make some events for the other warlords to win that would be different but similar in tenor to those favoring Lau Chou (who is obviously favored).

As for the comment about the Shogunate; something like this might be a good idea. I was actually thinking that one path for Wei would involve the power of the state falling more and more to the Confucian officials (scholar-literati, i.e. those who passed the state exams) to the point where possibly the state is dominated by the prime minister (總理, zong3li3) with the Emperor retreating into a more figurative leadership role.

Whichever path is taken, I'm also taking into account Ahmed's Champa events. Early in the game (1430ish), he has Champa given an opportunity to vassalize, and then annex Vietnam; in the course of this one or more of the provinces held by Song (the "Cantonese state north of Vietnam" -Ahmed) followed by a rebellion and possible formation of a Muslim (回, Hui2) dynasty. So, in general, for the Song the early period of the game is rather challenging just holding on to what they start with.

Also, much of SE asia may convert to Sunni along the way, which would trigger a mass exodus, particularly from Dai Viet, to southern China, bringing Theravadan Buddhist beliefs with them. Religious practice in China, what's labelled "Confucian" in the game, is actually Mahayana Buddhist; basically, Buddhism mixed with local Chinese beliefs and strongly influence by Confucian and Daoist philosophy. So, an influx of these refugees might/should turn one or two provinces "Buddhist".

In short, it's a difficult first century. After 1500 or so, a succesful player will have a revival-- I'm thinking this should coincide with the Chinese technology jump.

One the way, Song could be:

1. A militarized state ruled by a dictatorship (Shogunate). This version of Song would naturally do better at conquering China and ignoring the outside world. It would be highly centralized, also, narrowminded (though the tech group can still change, going narrowminded would limits its effect), and offensive, and would have problems with religious unrest, &c. if the Son of Heaven was not actually giving orders. Colonization (aimed at Indonesia & Australia... and Pacific Islands if Interregnum migrates to EU3 or MyMap) would also be a priority as its a good way of getting rid of dissidents and unruly warlords.

2. Gone, replaced with Hui dynasty. MattyG, you didn't answer my question before about any possibility of playing as the Order of the Crescent or any nation that arises out of rebellion? Is it feasible? In this case, I think if Nanzhao, a Muslim Bai state to the west, currently Lu Chuan, were to conquer enough of Song (or all of Song) it could declare itself the Hui dynasty also. Alternately, a successful rebellion could cause the government to fall and the player can "choose" to become Hui or else release Hui as an independent (non-vassal) state, or the Song player could choose to embrace Islam. As many of the above as are feasible, I endorse. Otherwise, event detail for Hui is going to the back of the list. I think in general they'd be rather belligerent and close with Champa.

3. A Buddhist state. This might, possibly, involve a new culture, some mixture of Theravadan (Nam Viet, Lao, Hmong, Khmer) and Chinese (Han, Cantonese) that would thoroughly distinguish it from its northern neighbors. The primary aim of this state would be the "liberation" of SE asia from Champa, meaning basically that it would set its imperial sights to the southwest. Since this path is most likely to come about from a successful Champa and a Muslim Indochina, there would probably be a lot of events detailing conflict and interaction with Muslims both inside Song borders and out. This state would also not be as militaristic, and would focus more on internal development.

4. A traditional Chinese dynasty. This means that the Song have "weathered the storm" and would experience a revival as a centralized state, having quashed the rebelling warlords and at least partially repelled both military and cultural invasions. This version would probably be moderately centralized and rather innovative, favoring free trade and naval dominance (I'm thinking of some events regarding Hainan and naval/piratic hijinks, but I'm not done yet). Also interested in colonizing, in the same places as #1.

I guess four possibilities may be too many, but one (#2) currently represents the utter failure of the state, so we only need to start with three. How does this look, oh Ye Who Will Be Coding?

 

[siafu]

Referencing the Champa event here: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5383654&postcount=15

EDIT: In case it's not clear, the Tanh Noah event is supposed to happen at ~1480 per post #13 in that thread

Event: "Refugees from Tanh Noah"
Triggered by religion in Tanh Noah == sunni
"With the arrival of Chambani missionaries in the south preaching of Mohanmude, many of the Nam Viet are choosing instead to flee rather than face the inevitable persecution."

A. Shelter them.
-1 Stab
+350 pop. in Guangxi
-20D
RR +1 in Guangxi for ten years
+1 BVT in Guangxi

B. Repulse them.
+1 Narrowminded
relation with Champa +40

There should be similar events for conversions in Hanoi, Lao Cai, and provinces in Laos. When and if Cambodia falls to Champa, Dai Viet, Laos, and Thailand should get some free population. After the Tanh Noah event, the pop bonus should apply to Guangdong and Hainan too, (+200 each) since the refugees already know that China has accepted their kind before. Choosing to repulse them ever stops the flow, though (meaning also that you can only lose 1 point of Innovativeness total). Only if Guangdong and Hainan get refugees can they convert later (that is, convert "for free").

If option A was chosen above for Tanh Noah (regardless of any other provinces having gone or not gone Sunni), then there's this event.

Event: The Peoples of Phật and Fo
"The flood of refugees from the south has brought with it their Theravadan teachings. Monks from the south preach of their vision of the Buddha have struck a chord with the hundred surnames. One monk, Nguyen An Thi, has written many treatises on the similar and compatibility of Theravada and Mahayana and has grown very popular. His popularity has itself become unpopular with the Confucian ministers of the state, who see their popularity as a threat to their control. Who policy should we favor?"

A. The teachings of Kong Fuzi are strong than those of Phật and Fo.
+1 RR in Guangxi
+1 Stab
Relation with Wei, Ming +10

B. Grant Nguyen a local office.
-1 RR in Guangxi
Gain chief judge in Guangxi
-20D

C. Make him prime minister!
+1 Innovative
-1 RR in Guangxi
-1 Stab
Monarchs adm +1
Relation with Champa -10

Choosing either B or C will allow all of the Buddhist-refugee provinces to officially convert with their
Event: Theravadan influence in XXXX
"With Imperial sanction, Theravadan influence has grown in XXXX."

A. Shan. Let them preach as they please.
XXXX converts to Buddhist

B. This nonsense must be stopped!
-half of whatever population was gained from refugees
-1 BVT in XXXX
+5 RR in XXXX for 5 years, +3 RRR in XXXX for 10 years.

If Nguyen An Thi became prime minister and at least two provinces converted to Buddhist and did not subsequently become muslim, in five years there should be this event:

Event: Phật speaks loudly in the court.
"The influence of Nguyen An Thi at court has been profound, and several of the officials, seeing the influence of Theravada elsewhere in the state, have decided to bend with the wind and espouse the teachings of Phật, the Buddha. This has led to a crisis in court; an opposing camp of officials, under Zhou An, have petitioned the Son of Heaven to have Nguyen executed for treason on the grounds that the Theravadan emphasis on release from suffering is a direct challenge to the Emperor's authority."

A. Support Zhou An, this must end.
+1 Narrowminded
+2 RR in Buddhist provinces
Monarch's adm -1, Monarch's mil +1 (Zhou An is prime minister now)

B. Support Nguyen, embrace Theravada.
Convert state religion to Buddhism (with all that entails)
Guangzhou converts to Buddhism
Triggers "The Son of Heaven is dead!"

Event: "The Son of Heaven is dead!"
Fu Zong is dead, murdered in his sleep by palace eunuchs conspiring with Zhou An and the Confucian officials! They have installed Zhao Fan, the emperor's infant son as Emperor, and have renounce Theravadan beliefs on his behalf. Nguyan An Thi and his followers have fled south across the Pearl River to meet the emperor's elder son, Zhao Hui, who is gathering support in the south. Who shall we favor?

A. Support Zhao Hui
Gain the services of Zhao Hui (3/2/2 leader)
Gain 3000 infantry in Guangxi
Gain 2000 cavalry in Guangxi
Gain 2 warships in Hainan
Gain 2 transports in Hainan
revolt in Guangzhou, control of Guangzhou goes to rebels
2xrevolt in Kowloon
2xRevolt in Hunan
+1 naval
Success triggers "Fotuo preserved!" event.

B. Support Zhao Fan
Gain the services of Zhou An (1/2/1 leader)
Gain 4000 infantry in Guangzhou
Gain 3000 cavalry in Guangzhou
+1 land
revolt in Guangxi, control goes to rebels
2x revolt in Guangdong
2x revolt in Wenshan
Success triggers "Kong Fuzi restored!" event.

 

[siafu]

Event: "Kong Fuzi Restored!"
"With the defeat of Zhao Hui, Zhou An has issued an imperial edict banning Theravadan practices. The Theravadan ministers have been expunged and Confucian officials restored to their posts. What shall we do this Nguyen now, Prime Minister?"

A. Put him to death.
-1 Innovative

B. Exile him to Tibet; there is a place for these Buddhists, but not in China.
+1 Innovative

Both: Convert to Confucianism

Event: "Fotuo Preserved!"
"With the defeat of Zhou An, Fu Zong's reforms are preserved and Zhao Fan has been deposed and placed under house arrest in the Southern Palace in Hainan. There, he would live out his uneventful life in decadence and luxury; as a member of the royal family he cannot simply be killed. Ironically, Fan's exile led to one last curse to Zhao Hui's line: numerous sons by his many concubines, whose descendants would one day prove troublesome. This Zhou An, on the other hand, need not receive such mercy from us. What shall we do with him?"

A. Put him to death for his crimes.
+2 Stab
-1 Innovative

B. Exile him to Wei.
-1 Stab
+1 Innovative

--------

I also forgot in the last post to mention that choosing to support Zhao Hui makes him the monarch as Fo Zu and switches to his dynastic line. Choosing to support Zhao Fan makes Zhou An ruler for fourteen years whereupon Zhao Fan takes over as De Zong. I'm writing a monarch file because it's rather easy to do, it'll have all of them included with remarks on who belongs to what line, &c.

 

[siafu]

So, after all this, it's about 1495 and Song is either Confucian or Buddhist. Later, Guizhou might go muslim along with Wenshan, sparking more rebellion possibly creating the Hui dynasty by 1505-10. Hui could also be created at any time by Nanzhao making sufficient inroads on any chunk of Chinese real estate.

That's the religious struggle. I think I'll need to add an event or two in the struggle btw Zhao Hui and Zhou An that will finalize the path set on with Lau Chou vs. Ma Fei regarding the supremacy of the Song court vs. the emergent
feudal warlords. After the religious matter is settled, this is finalized somehow yet to be described and Song proceeds to get back on its feet and pursue the new agenda.

That's what's next.