Sooooo...this article from Paradox is interesting...?

[MishaTX]

May I start by saying that I despise the very fashionable term "toxic" as it's used in the vernacular today? Perhaps it's because I have a real degree (not liberal arts) and therefore words have very specific meanings for me. To this date, I have yet to see a single study showing that offensive, rude and ill-mannered comments, no matter how much I personally may find them overwrought and hyperbolic, have caused a rash, death or serious illness in the recipient.

Sorry. Words mean things, or they don't mean anything at all.

That aside, I have no problem with harsh criticism, sarcasm, venting etc., as long as it doesn't get personal (unless there is very good reason backed up with evidence why it might be personal).

Saying "accountants and suits are a blight upon society" is not personal, unless the individual chooses to take it personally. I have worked Bob knows how many professions in my life, some of them popular, some of them not, but I have never, ever taken a derogatory remark about my profession at the time personally unless said remark hit upon something that I might feel hit too close to the mark. For me, personally, that is. And then it was on me. "If the shoe fits", as they say. If it DOESN'T fit, then be an adult and realize that the generalization refers to somebody else.

Or, in some cases, if I believed that the generalization was unfair, I might step in and offer a counter-argument but, again, I didn't take it PERSONALLY.

Saying "developer X is a useless sack of meat who ought to kill himself" IS personal, and it's totally unacceptable as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Todie]

Perhaps it's because I have a real degree (not liberal arts) and therefore words have very specific meanings for me. To this date, I have yet to see a single study showing that offensive, rude and ill-mannered comments, no matter how much I personally may find them overwrought and hyperbolic, have caused a rash, death or serious illness in the recipient.

Just because popular usage of certain terminology doesn't match up with Merriam Webster's definition doesn't mean the meaning out of that terminology amounts to nothing.

I think “toxicity” has usefully analogous connotations for describing discourse - analogous to what behaviours can do to discourse, conversations and communities — more-so than to “recipients of mean words” and whatnot.

I have a real degree

Is this your way of saying you’re.. not keen .. on the social sciences? as relevant to how for example a sociologist might define toxicity in this context?

 

[MishaTX]

Just because popular usage of certain terminology doesn't match up with Merriam Webster's definition doesn't mean the meaning out of that terminology amounts to nothing.

No. It just doesn't mean anything to me. It's just word salad. Adjectives irrelevant to the point being made being added for additional dramatic effect and therefore easily discarded and not to be taken seriously. That's all.

Is this your way of saying you’re.. not keen .. on the social sciences?

Not terribly. It's like what they say about philosophy: "Unintelligible answers to unanswerable questions."

Not that they're entirely without value, from an intellectual point of view, I find much entertainment in exploring them, it's just that they're not useful. They don't provide you with answers you can use practically.

To use an example as old as history itself: "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" There is no definitive and useful answer to that question, but that doesn't mean that it's not fun to explore the subject.

 

[maxk94]

CK3 in its current state has WAY less content and depth than imperator 2.0.

Period. But players dont wanna see it.

 

[imperial.]

Period. But players dont wanna see it.

Launch is very important for a game it will determine how many people sticks around, first impressions, form perceptions and whether or not those who may be interested will purchase a game down the line. That being said, the Marius update is a game changer and has many people talking, another 2 updates like that and this game will spread like Fire.

Also, Sequels that might be mediocre can fall back and let the reputation take a hit (to an extent), a new Title does not have that same luxury but every series must start somewhere. Same can be said about brand rep too.

 

[ForschungsFüchse]

How to read this article and recent events really depends on one's world view:

Was this article part of a coordinated effort directed by the higher echelons, one seemingly directed at only part of community but which they knew the gaming press and larger fanbase would interpret broadly. Is there some direct relationship between the Leviathan, Nemesis and I:R issues and Paradox's responses? Perhaps I:R development was suspended to distract - relieving pressure on the flagship games - perhaps it is all a prelude to future plans. Maybe Paradox is trying to lower their value for some clever business plans, or defense. Maybe its all a conspiracy for an all DLC policy with no base-games at all.

Or does it all have no meaning at all. Are these releases and statements barely controlled and managed, with no oversight and foresight. Is there no communication between studios, offices, and HQ. Is Paradox so caught up in crisis management and disaster response that cannot see beyond today. Perhaps they truly believed I:R would continue, their DLCs were bug free. Perhaps there is no plan, no management, no leadership. Worse than it is all being a conspiracy, maybe it is a chaos, soon to lead to collapse.

I would say it is the middle, despite my cynicism, but seeing the world as such shades of grey, and then trying to find my - and Paradox's - position on that spectrum is far too hard and psychological disruptive.

 

[Todie]

Not terribly [keen on social sciences] It's like what they say about philosophy: "Unintelligible answers to unanswerable questions."

Not that they're entirely without value, from an intellectual point of view, I find much entertainment in exploring them, it's just that they're not useful. They don't provide you with answers you can use practically.

I think we best take care to make a distinction between liberal arts and social science, though apperently , sociology can be defined as part of both.

Social science is widely useful, even practically - all be it in more indirect ways than natural sciences.

10 reasons for Social Science

Championing original and authoritative research

www.palgrave.com

 

[MohawkWolfo98]

You can add the very poor Nemesis DLC on Stellaris to the list of recent poor quality release.

Did u not like Nemesis? What about it which u didn’t like?

 

[Knotz]

To use an example as old as history itself: "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" There is no definitive and useful answer to that question, but that doesn't mean that it's not fun to explore the subject.

Philosophy would tell you the same thing, first year philosophy at my uni specifically notes that example as mixing two conceptual categories together (abstract in angels and concrete in the head of a pin) to pose a question that is grammatical and semantically sensible but unintelligible.

Other examples of what philosophy isn't: if a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound? That's a verbal dispute, depends on your definition of sound. And can God create a stone so heavy he cannot lift it which takes two mutually exclusive concepts (omnipotence vs impotence) and asks whether they're the same thing ie is x = !x.

 

[Ducky251]

Surely people going on forums and saying how cross/angry they are can also be a good thing as it shows people are passionate about your product - would it not be worse if an update was released to deafening silence as no one cared?

What this whole situation does sort of highlight is Paradox’s current business model - sell game, then create plethora of DLC to fund next games.

If every release keeps being marred by disasters and amongst the gaming community you get a reputation for sloppy half-baked releases that cost as much as a game, something has to change...

In reference to the word ‘toxic’ - it doesn’t matter what the term is, it’s what is said. Death threats and personal insults are not ok, but fair criticism is - if you have paid for a product you are allowed fair comment on it, the important word being ‘FAIR’.

Also, in referral to the EU4 issue, posting an apology and then deleting said apology will be noticed, either as a manager or PR department hunkering down in defence mode...they should’ve let the apology stand once it was posted...now they look confused

 

[Herennius]

Also, in referral to the EU4 issue, posting an apology and then deleting said apology will be noticed, either as a manager or PR department hunkering down in defence mode...they should’ve let the apology stand once it was posted...now they look confused

Now I'm confused Was there a 2nd apology beside the one in this thread...

My Apologies for 1.30.5

Hello! We just took the decision to revert back to 1.30.4 for now, as the quality was not what we expected. We are looking into ways to fix the issues as soon as possible, and will get back to you when we have more news. Sorry! //EDIT// The...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

...which is still there (though unstickied and closed for responses) ?

 

[Lamisatr]

No-one supports any form of abusive online behavior.

But this just goes to show just how out of touch PDS have become. In one of the worst weeks imaginable, another disastrous half baked DLC and the closing down of its best game, PDS choose to attack the fans who put in countless hours of free QA, and offer endless suggestions, solutions, and feedback etc.

I see the financials are through the roof though, so that's nice.

 

[scriptkiddy]

You are conflating two issues that have nothing to do with one another. That has nothing to do with "PR" or to "garner sympathy", it is a Content Designer (and trust me, we are as far away from marketing as you get) being honest with people.

I’m pretty sure that it wasn’t said Content Designer who chose the date and the medium/media to publish said article. That’s PR‘s job.

 

[Ducky251]

Now I'm confused Was there a 2nd apology beside the one in this thread...

My Apologies for 1.30.5

Hello! We just took the decision to revert back to 1.30.4 for now, as the quality was not what we expected. We are looking into ways to fix the issues as soon as possible, and will get back to you when we have more news. Sorry! //EDIT// The...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

...which is still there (though unstickied and closed for responses) ?

Ah ok - I had tried looking for it and people said it had been deleted...my bad!

People had said it had been deleted when I asked - thanks for correcting!

Although why isn’t it stickied? Surely they’d want people to see it...to avoid issues like this?

 

[Ducky251]

Now I'm confused Was there a 2nd apology beside the one in this thread...

My Apologies for 1.30.5

Hello! We just took the decision to revert back to 1.30.4 for now, as the quality was not what we expected. We are looking into ways to fix the issues as soon as possible, and will get back to you when we have more news. Sorry! //EDIT// The...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

...which is still there (though unstickied and closed for responses) ?

There is a more recent apology specifically referring to leviathan:


“We know that Leviathan and 1.31 Majapahit did not live up to the expectations you and we had set for this release. We’ve been hard at work getting the 1.31.1 hotfix out to you as soon as possible, and we feel confident that it will solve many of the most glaring issues that we have collected and identified. We have identified and corrected some issues in our production process based on learnings from this release and are taking concrete action – both to fix the existing issues and to ensure future releases meet the quality you expect.”

“1.31.1 is now available through Steam; it should be compatible with 1.30.0 saves (but we cannot guarantee this), and we have already begun work on 1.31.2 which will provide more updates in the near future.”

“We apologize if you haven’t been able to enjoy 1.31 and Leviathan the way we had hoped for, but we hope you’ll give it another look with these fixes in place. Our goal is for you to be able to enjoy it now, and for the foreseeable future.”

Could not find it in forums, had to take it from wargamer website!

 

[Jamor]

How to read this article and recent events really depends on one's world view:

Was this article part of a coordinated effort directed by the higher echelons, one seemingly directed at only part of community but which they knew the gaming press and larger fanbase would interpret broadly. Is there some direct relationship between the Leviathan, Nemesis and I:R issues and Paradox's responses? Perhaps I:R development was suspended to distract - relieving pressure on the flagship games - perhaps it is all a prelude to future plans. Maybe Paradox is trying to lower their value for some clever business plans, or defense. Maybe its all a conspiracy for an all DLC policy with no base-games at all.

Or does it all have no meaning at all. Are these releases and statements barely controlled and managed, with no oversight and foresight. Is there no communication between studios, offices, and HQ. Is Paradox so caught up in crisis management and disaster response that cannot see beyond today. Perhaps they truly believed I:R would continue, their DLCs were bug free. Perhaps there is no plan, no management, no leadership. Worse than it is all being a conspiracy, maybe it is a chaos, soon to lead to collapse.

I would say it is the middle, despite my cynicism, but seeing the world as such shades of grey, and then trying to find my - and Paradox's - position on that spectrum is far too hard and psychological disruptive.

I wish we were even half as smart and Macchiavellian as to be able to pull off a conspiracy of that magnitude. No, I'm afraid the reality is a lot more prosaic. The statements that kicked off this PC Gamer article were written, entirely unbidden, by my colleague on another dev team. A veteran content designer, with no links to marketing or PR whatsoever. Their only motive was to remind people that, except for community managers and ambassadors, no one at Paradox has "interact with fans on the forum" in their job description, and whether individuals choose to do so or not is entirely up to them. If the tone there is filled with hostility, many simply choose not to interact, for reasons that aren't hard to understand. Why would you face that if you weren't getting paid to?

As a producer, I can tell you that conspiracies may sound cool, but try actually managing thirty real people in real life and getting them moving in the same direction on a complex plan, with no one leaking anything. The sheer size of that task will erode your belief in vast conspiracies with the quickness, believe me.

People complaining at the lack of obvious personal attacks to back up the toxicity claim: you don't see what we delete. It would probably turn your stomach.

It's simple: we don't mind disagreement with our design decisions or business policy. Tell my teammates they are lazy or stupid though, don't expect a reply other than a ban. This is one of the last holdouts of company-specific, active online gaming forums that aren't only on social media. Let's hold on to this great thing we've built together, and not drag it down in to the general swamp of internet anarchy.

 

[Ducky251]

Yeah I don’t think paradox is attempting a ‘New Coke’ type of operation...but I find myself making excuses for Paradox more and more - ‘oh it’ll be ok in a few weeks after some hot fixes’...

But in the current world climate where basically all most people can do in each day is stay at home, things such as video games have risen in importance more than at any time in history, for entertainment and for peoples’ mental health.

This may explain some of the passion, and sadly incoming vitriol, but also someone should have realised that piling bad news on top of negative releases, although they say they aren’t related, is going to look like a very odd endeavour.

I for one am disappointed that IR is getting cut loose, I am also very disappointed in some in the community for attacking people directly (if you think you can do better, you do it! I’m sure you can’t) but the timing of ‘poor release’ and ‘we’re moving people to new things’ does not look great from an outsider’s perspective...

 

[KaiserJohan]

Maybe it's naive but I like Westers idea of "missdirected passion" or atleast thats how I decide to see it
Dev interaction on forums is great and despite it all something I hope we can get better at in the future!

 

[Lamisatr]

There is a more recent apology specifically referring to leviathan:


“We know that Leviathan and 1.31 Majapahit did not live up to the expectations you and we had set for this release. We’ve been hard at work getting the 1.31.1 hotfix out to you as soon as possible, and we feel confident that it will solve many of the most glaring issues that we have collected and identified. We have identified and corrected some issues in our production process based on learnings from this release and are taking concrete action – both to fix the existing issues and to ensure future releases meet the quality you expect.”

“1.31.1 is now available through Steam; it should be compatible with 1.30.0 saves (but we cannot guarantee this), and we have already begun work on 1.31.2 which will provide more updates in the near future.”

“We apologize if you haven’t been able to enjoy 1.31 and Leviathan the way we had hoped for, but we hope you’ll give it another look with these fixes in place. Our goal is for you to be able to enjoy it now, and for the foreseeable future.”

Could not find it in forums, had to take it from wargamer website!

The trouble is, gamers are just sick to death of apologies, this isn't just PDS it is industry wide. They're for the most part just meaningless PR, these companies aren't making mistakes they know exactly what they are releasing, they know exactly how they have chosen to mislead the consumer. They know they are releasing place holder games with BS roadmaps for content that never gets made, and unfinished DLC's...

Here's a list off the top of my head.

PDS titles, CP2077, Marvel's Avengers, Anthem, Failout 76, FFXIV, NMS SW Battlefront, and you know I could go on ad nauseum.

The games industry is toxic, if anything is causing toxiticy then it is the actions of these money grubbing, cynical corps. The gaming industry is an absolute shit-show of anti-consumer practices and corpo greed, that's all there is to it.

So, apologies don't wash anymore and far from calm people down they in fact enrage them further, because they know all they are are empty PR driven nonsense.

 

[Husein]

I wish we were even half as smart and Macchiavellian as to be able to pull off a conspiracy of that magnitude. No, I'm afraid the reality is a lot more prosaic. The statements that kicked off this PC Gamer article were written, entirely unbidden, by my colleague on another dev team. A veteran content designer, with no links to marketing or PR whatsoever. Their only motive was to remind people that, except for community managers and ambassadors, no one at Paradox has "interact with fans on the forum" in their job description, and whether individuals choose to do so or not is entirely up to them. If the tone there is filled with hostility, many simply choose not to interact, for reasons that aren't hard to understand. Why would you face that if you weren't getting paid to?

As a producer, I can tell you that conspiracies may sound cool, but try actually managing thirty real people in real life and getting them moving in the same direction on a complex plan, with no one leaking anything. The sheer size of that task will erode your belief in vast conspiracies with the quickness, believe me.

People complaining at the lack of obvious personal attacks to back up the toxicity claim: you don't see what we delete. It would probably turn your stomach.

It's simple: we don't mind disagreement with our design decisions or business policy. Tell my teammates they are lazy or stupid though, don't expect a reply other than a ban. This is one of the last holdouts of company-specific, active online gaming forums that aren't only on social media. Let's hold on to this great thing we've built together, and not drag it down in to the general swamp of internet anarchy.

Then maybe hire someone who will go trough comments and acummulate feedback and ideas directing them at designers. Going to financial reviews of Paradox it's all bragging about massive two digit growth, massive growth of income, massive projects, massive this, massive that. And at the same time there is the same excuse of "teams are too small so that excuses a bad game" or "No one is getting paid to do x". Pocketing the money is delicious, and an amazing short term strategy. But maybe Paradox should understand they are no longer 5 guys in a basement editing notepad texts for Crusader Kings 1 or EU1 and that maybe expanding is good? Imperator Rome costs 120 euros if you want the whole experience. It's not fixed. It's not done. It's not complete. And it's been paid with promise of further work. People have a right to be upset.