Sooooo...this article from Paradox is interesting...?

[Lamisatr]

Paradox need to invest more in their side of the bargain, that's the cause of all the problems, not enough devs, not enough time, not enough QA, not enough play-testing.

But, the corpo side doesn't want to do that because it means slightly lower short-term profit, f the long-term, f the games, and f the community. If the corps can make $1 per sale with bare bones games or unfinished broken DLC, and $1 less per sale with good products, they'll choose the former every time.

This is what happens you sell your soul as a studio.

 

[stratigo]

Redirect Notice

So...erm...I’m not sure what people think.

Yes, people going directly for developers is not on, but on the other hand maybe if they stuck with projects and didn’t ‘have form’ when it came to releases, releases that tie in to their business model which is not wildly popular with gamers, then this wouldn’t occur...

Thoughts?
(Without anything toxic please! Leave that to poison type Pokémon! )

I don't blame them, these forums get really gross. Every dlc release is a cavalcade of "THIS SUCKS! AAAAAAAAAAAAH!" for the last several years.

You can add the very poor Nemesis DLC on Stellaris to the list of recent poor quality release.

Like this post here

"Nemesis changed some things for the health of the game, and I have to adjust my playstyle a bit. IT IS THE WORST!!!!!"

Nemesis is a fine dlc. It is a skippable one cause a lot of the cool stuff was added with the patch, but it didn't break anything at all and in fact make the game LESS broken on a purely technical level (Well the patch did). But it made some play styles obsolete and, well, END OF THE FOOKIN WORLD for some very loud people.

To be fair, though, the comments they were referring to happened before Leviathan, even if they brought it up again today. It definitely is a trend, moreso in some of their games than others (Imperator has been more or less civil, but HoI4 and to a lesser extent EU4 are different stories).

That said, I don't think they face any more or less vitriol than any other publisher/developer with public forums. Maybe even a bit less, since there's still a fair bit of good will from the "old guard" (like myself) who have played their games more or less since the start. I think they might take it more personally because they're used to having constructive back-and-forth dialogue with their community, and that's just not as much of a thing anymore, both because the internet itself seems to be getting more toxic and because they've drifted away from a lot of the principles that generated that good will in the first place.

So... yeah. It's definitely a problem, though partially one of their own making, I think. I also think they just need to take a zero tolerance approach and bring down the hammer on people doing this. Other developers I follow are much more proactive in editing posts to remove bashing and just plain banning people than Paradox is, and I think they have the right idea. Also, ideally they need to grow a thicker skin, because unfortunately I don't see this getting any easier for them (or anyone else doing business on the internet) going forward.

HoI is always going to have a problem. And that problem is nazis. A game with playable nazis attract nazis even though nobody wants them around. And modern nazis are violent and aggressive and occasionally actually dangerous. I do not envy the HoI devs because they are always going to be on the edge of this, making a game in the period.

May I start by saying that I despise the very fashionable term "toxic" as it's used in the vernacular today? Perhaps it's because I have a real degree (not liberal arts) and therefore words have very specific meanings for me. To this date, I have yet to see a single study showing that offensive, rude and ill-mannered comments, no matter how much I personally may find them overwrought and hyperbolic, have caused a rash, death or serious illness in the recipient.

Sorry. Words mean things, or they don't mean anything at all.

That aside, I have no problem with harsh criticism, sarcasm, venting etc., as long as it doesn't get personal (unless there is very good reason backed up with evidence why it might be personal).

Saying "accountants and suits are a blight upon society" is not personal, unless the individual chooses to take it personally. I have worked Bob knows how many professions in my life, some of them popular, some of them not, but I have never, ever taken a derogatory remark about my profession at the time personally unless said remark hit upon something that I might feel hit too close to the mark. For me, personally, that is. And then it was on me. "If the shoe fits", as they say. If it DOESN'T fit, then be an adult and realize that the generalization refers to somebody else.

Or, in some cases, if I believed that the generalization was unfair, I might step in and offer a counter-argument but, again, I didn't take it PERSONALLY.

Saying "developer X is a useless sack of meat who ought to kill himself" IS personal, and it's totally unacceptable as far as I'm concerned.

"As long as it doesn't get personal. Also people with liberal art degrees are dummies that couldn't hack it with REAL DEGREES!"

I have a few guesses to what kinds of things you support.

But I mean, liberal arts requires critical thinking, not something everyone is cut out for I suppose.

The trouble is, gamers are just sick to death of apologies, this isn't just PDS it is industry wide. They're for the most part just meaningless PR, these companies aren't making mistakes they know exactly what they are releasing, they know exactly how they have chosen to mislead the consumer. They know they are releasing place holder games with BS roadmaps for content that never gets made, and unfinished DLC's...

Here's a list off the top of my head.

PDS titles, CP2077, Marvel's Avengers, Anthem, Failout 76, FFXIV, NMS SW Battlefront, and you know I could go on ad nauseum.

The games industry is toxic, if anything is causing toxiticy then it is the actions of these money grubbing, cynical corps. The gaming industry is an absolute shit-show of anti-consumer practices and corpo greed, that's all there is to it.

So, apologies don't wash anymore and far from calm people down they in fact enrage them further, because they know all they are are empty PR driven nonsense.

The game industry toxicity falls hardest on developers and other low level staff, who get it from fans and executives. Doubly so if they happen to be a lady

 

[TomTeki]

Redirect Notice

So...erm...I’m not sure what people think.

Yes, people going directly for developers is not on, but on the other hand maybe if they stuck with projects and didn’t ‘have form’ when it came to releases, releases that tie in to their business model which is not wildly popular with gamers, then this wouldn’t occur...

Thoughts?
(Without anything toxic please! Leave that to poison type Pokémon! )

Yeah, but ask 19,99€ for broken DLC is absolutely fair...

 

[Dagda]

Yeah, but ask 19,99€ for broken DLC is absolutely fair...

View attachment 713506

7% is actually pretty impressive. Didn't think that was even possible

 

[KermitxTheFrog]

I dont particularly blame them i mean i stay out of the HOI4 and stellaris forums because of toxicity i cant imagine what it be like for a developer

 

[Lu Jo]

The thing with forums is, they go bad if toxic users aren't banned swiftly. But with a consistent use of the banhammer they can improve. But takes time.

 

[Borgratz]

I understand why devs want to work in a positive and constructive work enviromnent.
I understand why customers want a place to vent their frustrations with the products they buy, constructive or otherwise (excluding attacks on people)

What I can't understand is what Paradox is thinking when they just put those two groups into one forum, give it some light moderation and call it a day.
There are so many game studios out there that do communication right. Just copy what they are doing

A few ideas:
There should be visible Mr-Freeze like Community Managers in each forum.
They need to get rid of the "devs are only ever allowed to talk about problems after release" rule that must be in place.
Devs should get regular on the job training on how to communicate with players and should get regular paid forum work hours at all times during devlopment, not just when PR decides that now is a good time to market their product.
Management, the people actually deciding when to release and how much to spend on bug fixes, should be out in force and engage with the players each time something goes wrong. It's your job to lead and protect your employees. And it often seems like you are hiding instead while some poor brave Soul from the dev team is trying to manage the flames on his own. (there have definetely been exceptions to this).
And all of those things should happen consistently, not just for a while after each desaster.


Its your job, to protect your employees and prevent these sort of shitstorms through preventive, honest and, if necessary, strict community management.

 

[Rithral]

Ah yes the go to “but you don’t know how bad the stuff we delete is” trust us it is bad…

If these comments exist then they are coming from throw away accounts. They are not coming from forum regulars with flair and hundreds of posts over decades.

The quality of PD releases has been slipping. The number of game breaking bugs is growing. Now it seems basic game mechanics changes are being done with out being fully thought through or modeled before hand.

Examples HOI3 toughness stat was broken and nonfunctional in the combat engines and never fixed for the entirety of the games life despite being identified by the community.

When Stellaris went from having multiple movement types to only hyper lanes the end game crisis that did not use hyper lanes stopped working and it took months for them to be fixed. Some would argue they were never truly fixed.

When planets were reworked in Stelaris end game crisis that would consume pops were broken. Again it took months for them to get fixed.

These are not small edge cases or rare scenarios these are core mechanics that are quickly identifiable 1st order effects when planning out the impacts a change in mechanics will causes. If we change core mechanics X then ABC mechanics that directly interact with X will also need to be adjusted accordingly.

In summary these are not small isolated issues. These symptoms of larger problems at PD that are getting worse over time, not better. I’ve chosen to vote with my wallet and stop purchasing 18 months ago. When PD shows me they have changed for the better I will reevaluate. So far the only signs I’ve seen are that this problem is getting worse not better.

How do you announce an expansion in February and cancel it less than three months later?

 

[Jean-Luc]

People actually making the games are in the unenviable position of being caught in-between the unethical practices of growth obsessed corporate culture and customers on the receiving end of such. Players get abused by bad business practices and, in turn, devs get abused by players. Both have legitimate grievances but neither side holds the solution since the root of the problem lies elsewhere.

 

[EastonAugustus]

Question: Who is paying whom in this relationship? Start delivering quality products and toxicity may decrease? The latest DLC for Imperator Rome was awesome, yet now the game has been shelved. In my view, IR was the best PDX game out currently (not counting Victoria 2).

 

[Ixtli613]

No. It just doesn't mean anything to me. It's just word salad. Adjectives irrelevant to the point being made being added for additional dramatic effect and therefore easily discarded and not to be taken seriously. That's all.

Not terribly. It's like what they say about philosophy: "Unintelligible answers to unanswerable questions."

Not that they're entirely without value, from an intellectual point of view, I find much entertainment in exploring them, it's just that they're not useful. They don't provide you with answers you can use practically.

To use an example as old as history itself: "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" There is no definitive and useful answer to that question, but that doesn't mean that it's not fun to explore the subject.

Hey, here's a personal question for you. Do you realize how insufferable you sound? Is it an accident, or do you really pride yourself on being so edgy and 'logical'?

 

[Kyoumen]

I've wondered for a long time why Paradox devs put up with the abuse they do on these forums. It's not like they have to - the amount of direct interaction with the fans here is quite unusual.

Well, wonder no longer, particularly since this very thread is full of people rushing in with ridiculous hyperbole (0 beta testing, yes, totally, Paradox doesn't have QA people that post on the forum or anything), tedious victimhood routines, and whataboutism.

Here's my hot take: a game you don't enjoy, or a game that has bugs, or a game that isn't what you wanted it to be, is never a reason to insult the people involved with making it. Never. Period. Criticise the game itself all you like, take your money elsewhere if it brings you no joy, but you were not involved in the making of said game, you don't actually know who is to blame, you should stick to what you actually know (I'm not happy with this game) and leave the rest out of it. It's just a video game.

And I'm no Paradox apologist. There's lots of things they've done I'd critique (off the top of my head, I hated their going to Steam-only, their later return to non-Steam releases was and is indifferently supported, the end of their relationship with the Gamersgate store was bungled and personally cost me access to many DLCs I'd paid for, and their handling of the purchase of White Wolf has been baffling in pretty much every respect), and I actually play their games a lot less now than I did a decade ago (although that's for a few different reasons). But that doesn't extend to personal criticism or assumption of malice to anyone involved. If games aren't up to the quality you want them to be, say so and stop spending your money on them. I guarantee that Paradox will listen if enough people do that, and if they don't, someone else will rise to take their place and you can give them your money instead. There's no reason to be angry about it.