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SoPs & Tribes

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I've been asking similar questions too so I understand the feeling!

Tribe governments were mentioned briefly in Tinto Talks #2 as a government type of Settled Countries, the little that we currently know is that they use Tribal Cohesion it contributes to a country's name. The same Tinto Talk also mentions how government types "...determines a fair bit of what type of mechanics you get access to. As an example, a Republic does not have access to royal marriages, and a Steppe Horde has a different view on how war, peace and conquest works compared to other types of countries." It's safe to say that we'll need much more information on what those mechanics are.

Societies of Pops are different from Settled Countries in that they don't own land, can't build most buildings, most don't have laws or taxation, and they can't build cities (as said in Tinto Talks #26). Instead, they're based upon their pops which can migrate and can force the allegiance of pops to change to them through warfare. If they achieve certain advances, they can become Settled Countries as some playthroughs have shown. As some have said, they're like Settled Countries but worse (at least in some respects)! Like with Tribe goverments, we haven't seen their gameplay yet so that's direly needed. Given the vagueness in some qualifications, some of us in the threads are arguing about some SoPs being better represented as Settled Countries.

I forget where exactly, but I thought there was a Tinto Talk that gave at least some details about Tribesmen pops.
 
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Tahami Tsunami said:
I've been asking similar questions too so I understand the feeling!

Tribe governments were mentioned briefly in Tinto Talks #2 as a government type of Settled Countries, the little that we currently know is that they use Tribal Cohesion it contributes to a country's name. The same Tinto Talk also mentions how government types "...determines a fair bit of what type of mechanics you get access to. As an example, a Republic does not have access to royal marriages, and a Steppe Horde has a different view on how war, peace and conquest works compared to other types of countries." It's safe to say that we'll need much more information on what those mechanics are.

Societies of Pops are different from Settled Countries in that they don't own land, can't build most buildings, most don't have laws or taxation, and they can't build cities (as said in Tinto Talks #26). Instead, they're based upon their pops which can migrate and can force the allegiance of pops to change to them through warfare. If they achieve certain advances, they can become Settled Countries as some playthroughs have shown. As some have said, they're like Settled Countries but worse (at least in some respects)! Like with Tribe goverments, we haven't seen their gameplay yet so that's direly needed. Given the vagueness in some qualifications, some of us in the threads are arguing about some SoPs being better represented as Settled Countries.

I forget where exactly, but I thought there was a Tinto Talk that gave at least some details about Tribesmen pops.
Click to expand...

Important to keep in mind as well SOP are not playable at release.
 
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How do the devs decide that the Sao people are SoPs instead of Tribesmen (estate) in Kanem Empire or a Tribal county of Sao below Kanem?
What are the qualifiers to represent a group of people as SoPs or Tribesmen or Tribe Govt?

Is it only migration?
 
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Twig1000 said:
Fair enough. I hope that's something that could change in post-release content. I thought it'd be cool to play as the Ainu in Japan.
Click to expand...

In truth, no matter our intentions only time will tell.
Playable SOP was the original plan and still would be cool though yes.

Edit: To be clear though, as I stated above, just not at release.
 
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Basically, it's a population that's self-governing and isn't meaningfully under the state's control and can contest that control by fighting back.

SOPs can move around, raise armies, and can eventually become settled states.
 
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PDX Ryagi said:
Important to keep in mind as well SOP are not playable at release.
Click to expand...
I'm glad, actually. SoPs should be given proper levels of depth to them and if that means pushing it for post-release content, so be it.

That does mean that I am watching very patiently for the Oceania feedback map and to see if certain nations that should be changed will be even more now, because SoPs not being playable does mean that I want them to be changed even more (Tonga and Samoa were a good chunk of my campaigns alone following Leviathan)
 
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Victor Emmanuel 2k said:
How do the devs decide that the Sao people are SoPs instead of Tribesmen (estate) in Kanem Empire or a Tribal county of Sao below Kanem?
What are the qualifiers to represent a group of people as SoPs or Tribesmen or Tribe Govt?

Is it only migration?
Click to expand...

So on that particular case, their migrations and raids were a major factor in why they were made into a SoP instead of just left as minorities inside Kanem.

Generally speaking, a SoP has several indicators/markers that devs use, such as administration/research management, infrastructure, government, etc. But as you can tell, it's not always clear cut.

Same with all other feedback, especially map feedback, if you have a case for a SoP being landed or vice versa by all means make yourself heard here on the forums and we'll take a look at it :D
 
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we do not know in detail - what we know ... or at least I believe we know is:

First of all, see it primarily as conceptional for the devs and not necessarily clear cut w.r.t. real life. If there a given state is considered monarchy or tribe is fluent (see e.g. Arabia or Ireland). The same is true between tribal state and a SOP. There will be a lot of edge-cases, e.g. North-America.
Even though there is no totally clear-cut border, there seems to be a difference with respect to cohesion ("institutions", organization beyond families and longer distances.)

As a purely game-mechanics the difference is more clear:
  1. Societies of Pops (special; see below)
  2. Countries having Govt type: Tribe (just different than monarchy, theocracy and Hordes, etc.) --> different reforms, laws, advances and other mechanics
  3. Country's social class and estate: Tribesmen (that are just different PoPs but the state might be non-tribal. Example: Sweden settling in Sami-territory will still be a monarchy, but there will be PoPs, which are special (probably rather rebellious and less integrated in economy))
The difference between 2 and 3 is rather easy. But 1 is special. I see them very abstract: Tags can be based on land (locations as in all old PDX-games), on building, on armies and on PoPs (SoP). It is just a very abstract generalization, what tags could be.
For SoP it is not fleshed out - at least not playable. These concepts allow for tags to overlap or exist at the same geographic place. If that is really used fully at release or an option for expansions / dlc is irrelevant. If building-based oountries or SoP are not fun, does not matter either. It simply allows for more flexible and hopefully immersive play for classic tags.

However, SoP allow for some special things:
- unification and state-building across nations
- model the transition of loosely organized people to more closely knot Organizations - especially as answer to
- have an intermediate step between isolated natives which could be easily pushed over by colonizers and states which could be almost not colonized at all.
 
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As far as i can see,

Uncolonised land have invisible bands of native pops which needs to be fought off before colonising that location. Being less organised they are temporarily settled in that lands. They put up a loose resistance when a new group of settlers invade and then panic and scram.

SoPs are a bit more organised having a strong communal bond and leadership. They often do not identify themselves with the land they are inhabiting then. They keep moving and they have embraced their nomadic lifestyle.

But Tribal Govts were once SoPs but now identify with the land they currently live in. They have acquired sovereignty over that land. So they're pretty settled and if you want that land, you must fight them. They might have let go of their nomadic past due to surrounding political pressure.

Tribesmen were once SoPs or Tribal Govts but then became annexed by a neighbouring country. The conqueror rules over them but still has reservations about integrating them fully as commoners due to their tribal identity.

So from a broader perspective,
  • Native bands - Nomadic tribes with no organisation
  • SoPs - Nomadic tribes with organisation
  • Tribal Govts - Settled tribes with organisation
  • Tribesmen - Tribes conquered by another country
 
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PDX Ryagi said:
Important to keep in mind as well SOP are not playable at release.
Click to expand...
A shame but perfectly understandable given the ambitious scope of the game. We'll optimistic for progress on them after release, no rush. In the meantime, we're definitely making cases for some SoPs being landed!

By the way, if you don't mind me asking, do you know what kind of feedback is being asked for on landed tags with tribal governments?

Regardless, thanks for the info.
 
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