Southern Revolutions Mod for V:R

[OHgamer]

To follow up on DKs post, the Victoria forum and its relative subfora is for the free exchange and discussion of ideas relating to the game in a rational, civil and respectful manner. Posters who develop the habit of transforming the tone and characters of such discussions of perceived limitations of the arguments of those who disagree with them into personal attacks on the character or intelligence of those they disagree with will soon run afoul of the administrators of this forum. This is a place for rational, adult discussion, not the schoolyard playground or Romper Room. Disagreement over issues is fine so long as it remains at the level of civil collegiality to help improve understanding for all, but not when it turns into egregious personal insults.

 

[unmerged(63263)]

The south has a form of emancipation of its slaves into the jim crow laws. will an event be made to add them to the population.

Also early on in the game as the south can be given land from mexico any way we can mod that to add to sourthern pop. or a way to "reeducate" them into texas.

I know this can be sef done but i was hoping for a more historical note then just convert pop to whatever.

 

[HMS Enterprize]

Interesting discussion here on sherman. I have always held that scorched earth is the policy of the defender rather than the policy of the attacker so personally speaking I dont consider that choice of words apt either but then thats just my take on it.

I also consider Sherman's actions akin to strategic bombing in WW2, a forerunner of the modern 'war crime' (although I doubt Sherman was the first to ever do commit said acts also) so perhaps genocidal is not too far from the mark (although I do agree that 'genocidal' is probably not the right word either). The 'dishonouring of Arthur Harris' would also imply that even the Allies considered the targetting of population centers as a morally questionable exercise at best.

History is invariably written by the victors and Im sure there are not a lot of people who would not deny that if Germany had had the strategic air force, the bombing of population centers would have been included in the lists of war crimes, so I think 'scorched earth' paints rather a rosy picture of what sherman was really up to.

 

[CSABadass]

So it seems to me that he was just a poor player and needed to take his frustrations out on you and your outstanding mod. All I can say is this, I may be a die-hard unionist, but I will cover your backside against the trolls out there, Johnny Reb.

The term genocide denotes a planned and implemented destruction of a POPULATION. Sherman may have burned down the buildings, but he did NOT round up the people and put them in camps to die after burning down their homes like Kitchener did in the Boer war.

Thanks for the support, Thorgrimm--I really appreciate it!

Sherman favored deporting all those who'd supported secession, and giving the Southlands to "loyal immigrants." That's not the Killing Fields of Cambodia, but without question it is the "planned destruction of a population." No amount of alleged bias on my part disguises that. On the contrary, if we parse other atrocities the same way you do Sherman's acts, the planned famines of the Stalinist era aren't genocide because the people weren't rounded up and killed, only left to starve.

In war, there are unfortunate civilians who are in the wrong place at the wrong time (Jenny Wade), and there are those who are deliberately targeted for no just military aim. Sherman is clearly guilty of the latter. It ain't propaganda if it's true, my friend Thorgrimm.

I now stand accused of being a propagandist, despite the fact I decry in equal terms the likes of Jesse James, Bill Quantrill, John McCausland and other Confederates who were guilty of similar deplorable acts. I wish more Unionists--secure in having won the War--would similarly acknowledge the monsters who fought for their side.

Again, I thank you for your support, Thorgrimm. Please understand why my gratitude does not extend to the racist and genocidal Sherman.

Gentlemen, after two days of being "lazy" and "propagandizing," I'd dearly love to go back to talking about my mod. In the meantime, I'm going to go play some games and try to enjoy the rest of my summer.

 

[CSABadass]

The south has a form of emancipation of its slaves into the jim crow laws. will an event be made to add them to the population.

Also early on in the game as the south can be given land from mexico any way we can mod that to add to sourthern pop. or a way to "reeducate" them into texas.

I know this can be sef done but i was hoping for a more historical note then just convert pop to whatever.

At last--A question about the mod!

If I read you correctly, you're asking if African-American and Mexican POPs could be made CSA national cultures. Frankly, I don't see that happening in the Ricky time frame. That's too great a leap for the backwards racial attitudes of the South to make in too short an interval.

Thanks for letting me talk about the mod!

 

[RELee]

If I read you correctly, you're asking if African-American and Mexican POPs could be made CSA national cultures. Frankly, I don't see that happening in the Ricky time frame. That's too great a leap to make from the backwards racial attitudes of the South to make in too short an interval.

Agreed. In fact, there are still a few backwards, die-hard hold-outs roaming the streets to the south of the Mason-Dixon Line who would prefer those cultures were where they were back in the 19th century. In game terms, you couldn't really make those pops CSA nationals until well into the 20th century, if even then.

I don't think folks really appreciate just how stubborn Dixie pops can be.

Such a change would be way too ahistorical.

 

[HMS Enterprize]

In the Turtledove books, when the CSA aquires the mexican provinces in 1881 the mexicans there get full citizenship, (a political party even runs a presidential candidate from there!) so (at least in the books) it doesnt seem a completely radical idea...at least to me anyway

I think the basic 'idea' is that- at least they arent as bad as blacks.

And I know from research I have done, that in some cases when the need arose the Dixie POPs could be very pragmatic in putting national concerns over racial ideologies, Cleburne's proposals beeing the most obvious example...

 

[CSABadass]

In the Turtledove books, when the CSA aquires the mexican provinces in 1881 the mexicans there get full citizenship, (a political party even runs a presidential candidate from there!) so (at least in the books) it doesnt seem a completely radical idea...at least to me anyway

I think the basic 'idea' is that- at least they arent as bad as blacks.

And I know from research I have done, that in some cases when the need arose the Dixie POPs could be very pragmatic in putting national concerns over racial ideologies, Cleburne's proposals beeing the most obvious example...

I wonder if Mr. Turtledove has spoken with any of the Hispanic Air Force veterans who couldn't eat off-base in Texas during WWII because all the restaurants had "No Dogs or Mexicans Allowed" signs up in the window.

The game engine already puts non-national POPs into uniform during mobilization. I believe that's as far as the CSA did--or would ever--go.

At the very least, I think there would be a sizable gap between the rights the CSA would promise their new Mexican population and what they'd actually deliver. Just ask any African-American citizen who believed the 15th Amendment and tried to register to vote in the South during the 1950s.

 

[unmerged(63263)]

Hey now, just cuz I am like 10 miles from the birth of the Klan does not mean anything, haha. well I guess it helps to be born in the north.

I have moved on way past the C.W., beat the French in a colonial War that took French indo from them. So my respect is a future event that can take place not right after the civil war but some time later. Just with this new time line and that i am not the maker of this mod I really dont know what you have instore or even if there is an event that his would happen in.

And you can always count on me to ask mod questions.

oh yeah with all these people remember to vote or die!!!

 

[unmerged(63263)]

sorry for the double post but what if we made a event to ask for it or not that way we can save face to be "True" South or a more modern day South. WE talk about a "New South" event, but how can this be with 1860 idea's. We cannot be a world power with most of our population still in the feilds. At some point Jim Crow ends, so then with above post a event that would happen. A sum what 15th Amendment.

 

[CSABadass]

I have moved on way past the C.W., beat the French in a colonial War that took French indo from them. So my respect is a future event that can take place not right after the civil war but some time later. Just with this new time line and that i am not the make of this mod I really dont know what you have instore or even if there is an event that his would happen in.

And you can always count on me to ask mod questions.

oh yeah with all these people remember to vote or die!!!

Glad to have you aboard!

Again, I just don't see any sort of racial concord occurring in a victorious CSA any faster than it did IRL. Winning would "prove" their backwards ideas about race to be correct, and that ignorance would last well past the Ricky timeline, just like it did IRL.

I couldn't morally or historically justify modding in a "Suddenly, The South Ain't Racist No More" event, and I'd feel way too much like I was either whitewashing history, ridiculously cheating for my Dixieland, or both. If the absence of such an event makes the CSA more challenging to play, speaking frankly as a gamer, that's a challenge I enjoy.

Thanks for the post, and I hope you continue to enjoy SR!

 

[HMS Enterprize]

I wonder if Mr. Turtledove has spoken with any of the Hispanic Air Force veterans who couldn't eat off-base in Texas during WWII because all the restaurants had "No Dogs or Mexicans Allowed" signs up in the window.

The game engine already puts non-national POPs into uniform during mobilization. I believe that's as far as the CSA did--or would ever--go.

At the very least, I think there would be a sizable gap between the rights the CSA would promise their new Mexican population and what they'd actually deliver. Just ask any African-American citizen who believed the 15th Amendment and tried to register to vote in the South during the 1950s.

Thats fair enough, its your mod after all. Although thinking about it, I suppose losing the CW could entrench racial views for a long ol' time, not that Im suggesting winning would produce a utopian paradise by any means.

 

[CSARebel]

Sherman, yes....forgive me...again.

I just have a hard time helping myself, I so love a good discussion (argument, debate, what have you). I ask forgiveness in advance, but here it goes, my two cents on Sherman.

Sherman was a general that understood the war he was fighting and what it would take to win. Yes, he was hard on the South but he shared the same motivations as the rest of the Damnyankees (They all were oppressors), so I consider them all guilty of crimes.

However, if I shared the belief he had, that the union should be preserved (and ignoring popular sovereignty), then I would have fought the war much like he did.

Strategic bombing, using nukes, killing, impaling, torture, all are fair in war (I do have rules to my views which I would be more then happy to bore anyone with, but on an off topic forum). I think I would have gotten along with Sherman quite well, when I wasn't trying to kill him .

 

[CSABadass]

Thats fair enough, its your mod after all. Although thinking about it, I suppose losing the CW could entrench racial views for a long ol' time, not that Im suggesting winning would produce a utopian paradise by any means.

You make a valid point as always, good sir.

I suppose a victorious, less bitter CSA might be less oppressive than the post-bellum South was IRL, but my feeling--and really, it's alt-history, what else have I got?--is it would be a country built on "compassionate oppression." More "white man's burden" rhetoric than "Let's go lynch one, Bubba!" but in the end, it will still suck big-time to be non-white.

At any rate, creating a mod where the ONLY culture on all of 19th century Earth that isn't openly racist is the one that built its nation with slavery as its cornerstone is not something I want to do, for moral and historical reasons.

I am still wondering how the Cherokee and the other civilized tribes would've fared, so I'd really appreciate hearing any learned guesses you have there. The tribes might not have fared any better than blacks (especially after oil was struck), but if any minority had a chance for something other than oppression under Southern rule, it was they.

 

[CSABadass]

Hey all,
I appreciate the very strong feelings about William T. Sherman on both sides of the Mason-Dixon, but I'd very much appreciate it if we could keep this thread focused on the mod. Please feel free to call me out on anything I post here, but I'd like to keep this space as much as possible for discussing how I can make SR a better mod.

After all, I wouldn't want you all to start thinking I'm a lazy modder or something.

Thanks in advance!

 

[RELee]

sorry for the double post but what if we made a event to ask for it or not that way we can save face to be "True" South or a more modern day South. WE talk about a "New South" event, but how can this be with 1860 idea's. We cannot be a world power with most of our population still in the feilds. At some point Jim Crow ends, so then with above post a event that would happen. A sum what 15th Amendment.

Personally, I like this idea for an event, although I haven't done anything to this point to test the validity of making it an event.

Sometimes, I find that what seems a good idea just doesn't really pan out real well in the event engine.

But as an idea, I think it has real merit.

It's not so much that I believe that Jim Crow would end, but that as the victorious CSA began approaching the doors to the 20th century, they would find themselves in the quandary of remaining a quiet, little agricultural nation or advancing in an effort to keep up with their northern rivals, which would mean industrializing. Since the game engine can't shove slaves into factory jobs, then ...

You get the idea.

Obviously, the first choice would be to remain "traditional", so that the AI would be more likely to remain the good, old, stubborn, irrational South that we all know and love. The second, least likely to be chosen, choice would be to nationalize the other pops and begin making a real effort to industrialize. It's not a real stretch, really, to believe a victorious South would not be more lenient towards other cultures rather than more intolerant. Personally speaking, it is my belief that the actions and policies towards blacks during post-Reconstruction days was as much "sour-grapes" over losing the war as it was anything else.

Hmmm. I guess that this event, if the second choice is taken, would require a new AI file so that the South could make real use of this should the human be playing some other country like, say, the USA (shudder).

Just my two cents.

And I don't mean to stray too far into causes and effects, I'm just rambling out loud over justification for a game event.

And I would never think that you are a lazy modder. I'm too much the lazy gamer to accuse anyone. I haven't fired up any game at all in a week. I've been too busy playing with my new truck. (2004 Ford F150, 5.4L V8, 3V, Triton engine, auto, air, extended cab, power everything, less than half the MSRP when new -- WOOT!!!)

I'm one happy country boy.

 

[unmerged(63263)]

Good points so i will use them. But unfortunately some of this is talk I would expect out of the North. The most important question is what you believe the Civil War was founded on.

I will shot myself now, before the cotton gin, slavery was dying out. My personal belief is that slavery was common bind in the south, but issues over states right is more to the point of the war.

Going on these two points the South at the start of the war is very different then the South after the war and the racial south of the 60’s. Who really is to say Jim crow would of happen. Jim crow did happen cuz the south did lose, as a response to the north. And we all know that the North is no better then the South other then they "paid" hahaha their irsh.

Also there is an event that adds the north as a pop to the south. hint hint.

But to those mods, I am not asking you to change the whole game just write codes here for people to add them to there game. Hell i can at least do that. well not write but copy and paste. and be very thankful

 

[HMS Enterprize]

I am still wondering how the Cherokee and the other civilized tribes would've fared, so I'd really appreciate hearing any learned guesses you have there. The tribes might not have fared any better than blacks (especially after oil was struck), but if any minority had a chance for something other than oppression under Southern rule, it was they.

Hmm, difficult to say...I would hope at the very least that the Confederates would at least be sensible enough to realise that they already have one big potential enemy and dont need any others, especially tough ones like indians. Id imagine a grudging 'live and let live' policy, leading to trade, then possible statehood...looking at it from the most optimistic angles of course.

Incidentally, have you read 'The wild blue and the grey'? A tale of (ironically enough) an Indian who is sent by the head of his tribe as an observer/participant in the CS air force, over to France in WW1. Not a bad book at all, a little hokey in places but worth a go.

 

[unmerged(76802)]

I started a new CSA game (great fun, btw, embroiled in war vs. Spain in 1870 currently).

1. Could you set the "conservative ideology" events to have aqlready triggered at scenario start? With them, the CS rapidly gets to 0 plurality, not a great thing for a democracy.

2. What do you think about giving the UK and/or France GoIs on the CS if the recognition events fire?

3. The event to ask Spain if Cuba is for sale shouldn't fire if the CS and Spain are at war.

4. I think the foreign intervention in Mexico should be modded some. Usually, I just see France grab the Yucatan or somesuch instead of installing Maximilian. Maybe something like Paradox's AI event that lets Germany form if Prussia wins, but doesn't take Paris.

5. Should the 'Enforce the Monroe Doctrine' event fire for the US if the CSA has broken free? And if so, shouldn't the US actually go to war on Mexico's side instead of just making an alliance?

 

[unmerged(63263)]

3. The event to ask Spain if Cuba is for sale shouldn't fire if the CS and Spain are at war.

This one did happen to me, i picked make and offer and nothing happen from it. I was still at war till they sued for peace.