Spain too strong in MP?

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Originally posted by Jens Z
Sorry, I should have been more precise.

With "AoE" I meant "Age of Empires" and the quickness some players show while moving their mouse around, clicking here and there in seconds.

As far as our game is concerned we do play the GC. We are currently in 1660 and Spain has become the dominating power controlling nearly all of North, central and south america.

At the beginning of the GC, France and Spain were neutral to each other. France has to deal with England and Spain concentrated on exploration and colonizing. Indeed, Spain would have been vulnerable at that time, but this is our first MP-GC and so we were all shocked by the speed the spanish player increased his power. On the other hand, its nice to have surprises like this in MP-games.

Yeah, i guessed you mean Age of Empires. I, on the other hand, mean Age of Exploration

In this scenario, France only weakness is it's low tech. Besides, it's wealthier, has more manpower.

Austria is Spains' natural ally, though. And Spain has natural defensive position.

GC is another matter entirely. Spain has no real enemies, as France is in total mess. It can freely concentrate on uniting Iberia and, if it's Aragon-Spain, Italy.

It can also secure that no one except her will get Portuguese research, which is the only one thing that allows to colonize in since XV century.

And having established cities in Brazil, Africa and Indonesia really helps when Columbus kicks in.

And it also gets earlier starts, as Columbus appears in 1487, or so.

But it would be funny thing to DOW Spain few years before, station big fleet in Andalusian gulf, capture the city, and watch Columbus die in naval engagement

EDIT/ Oh, i forgot about what i was trying to say
Anyway, the point is, that in GC, early period is crucial to Spanish strenght. War against France means drawing resources needed elsewhere.

 

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Originally posted by Achiles
Well bmoores, Spain doesn't really have to conquer much at all to become the richest and most powerful state in the world. The only nations Spain has to conquer are the Aztek, Zapotek, Mayans, Incans, and Chimu. Those conquests should be expected by the other players. Otherwise, in Spain's case, it's just colonize, colonize, colonize. The problems seem to arise when the spanish player takes all that wealth and power garnered from mass colonization and uses it for european or eastern conquest. I can understand the allure to. All that wealth and power just sitting there, completely untapted. It's hard to resist the temptation to try to build an empire in europe the rivalls Charles V's. Or conquer India before the english and french can get on the scene in force. There are other appealing targets all over the place. The urge for conquest is very very tempting in Spain's case. Paradoxically(spelling?) Spain is the nation that can least aford it because everyone expects Spain to give into that urge sooner or later. Thing is even Spain can't stand up forever against the wrath of every human player and the AI. So Spain eventually buckles and breaks and losses all her wealth and power. What the spanish player should do is write a peaceful and detailed statement of purpose before the game and make sure every other player reads it. Then follow that statement of purpose to the letter. This shows that Spain's word can be trusted. The spanish player should discuss any major military actions they are going to take with the other players and make his intent clear. If the long periods of peace bore the spanish player some then he could take an interventionist role under the guise of maintaining the BoP. But the spanish player still needs to make it clear to the other players that he is not trying to build an empire but is mearly trying to help maintain the BoP. The main thing though is that the spanish player must never break his word to the other players. The only hope Spain has for longterm success is a sterling reputation with the other players. Basically Spain should try to stay under the other player's radars so to speak. The other players, especially England and France are going to be very jealous and afraid of Spain. Spain must placate their fears and direct their jealousy elsewhere so that she can have peace and prosperity. Spain should be a diplomat not a warrior.

P.S. That bloodthirsty comment was a bit out of line. I apologize to anyone I offended. Cya, bye!

Please period your texts, it's getting hard to read You have a good point though

 

[Damocles]

BTW, we continued our campaign yesterday for another 40 years. There were no player vs player wars. Most of us tried to strenghten our achievments by administrative messures (converting, colonizing, etc). Of course some small scale wars with minor countries took place, manly outside Europe.

THAT is exactly why Spain is able to grow to such gigantic proportions in Multiplayer games. People have this built in need to feel safe and secure and they do this by never going to war with other players, even feeling apprehensive and anxious over it. This allows some players to build up truly tremendous empires as in SP, (Because you are all playing a SP game). If you want to curb this type of thing, the obvious tactic is to be aggressive early and often and always. You need to repeatedly check the expansionistic tendencies of the players near you or else you will all sit in peaceful harmony for a 150 years until he blitzs you for giggles.

France is in the best position to do something about Spain. You shouldn't have any trouble with England unless it is played by another player. Other then that, France is surrounded by small weak ai controlled minors and so can persue even the most violent BB strategies and still focus on Spain.

 

[Jens Z]

Your right.

However, if the Spanish player manages to form an alliance with England (player) or Great-Danmark (player), France is a bit encircled and certainly not in the position to begin war.

That was the situation in our game more than 150 years. The Spanish player cleverly secured his backdoor by this.

However, this also works the other side and I (as France) have now finally managed to form an alliance with England...

 

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Hellow everyone. Maybe some of my exp. might help. Kinda new here So Hi Everyone .

Okies I just got the game a few weeks ago and love it so far. Also only played a few games always as Portugal. Guess I like being the little guy. I think a human played Portugal can really slow down Spain. Maybe even to a crawl.

In my first game playing the scenerio Age of Exploration, Portugal gets both an Explorer and a Conquestador. My King gave them two orders to head head out to sea and it'll be your heads if you come back with bad news ! ! Setting out with dispair the hired their crew of sailors looking back at their land thinking it'll be their last time seeing the hills. Amazingling, in less then a year they sighted their first island. The carribeans as the historians named them. Comming back to Portugal with good news, the King sets the two out once again that year with fresh supplies and troops. A whole fleet of warships. Within five years almost all of the Winward Islands were colanized. The two Commanders decided to sail a bit further south comming across South america. Ect...Ect.....

So within Lets say 10 years a good Portugese player will have had made it across the seas and could bet spain to americas easly. That is ofcourse in Age Of Exploration.

Now In GC is a different story. I had to start my first game in GC as Portuagal over a serveral times just because I Didnt know what to do. No Conqustadors or explorers to start with ! ! I was at war with Fez Thats what I did. Invaded North America, Allied with Castel and Aragon. That ally took me to war with Napals where I gladly assisted getting a foot in the boot. Somewheres during the war with Naples I recieved a Papul bull against Papul states. Taking advantage of the situation I went against the Pope's athority abtaning Vassualization.

Somewheres during this I saw My allies beating up on Granada. Now Gibraltar is too tempting to portugal to let pass. I went to war without a papul bull and seized the tip of Gibraltar for my own security. ( Big Bad Boy No No)

All during this time I was still dealing with North America. Kez and Algeria were not enjoying my company at all. Kev broke my Vassul with them siding along with algeria against me again. A swift war and Kez fails to my rule while Algeria has given up two of its coastal Territories.

Just as this is happening I get my first Explorer. My King sends him out to see with orders of Don't return till you get some good news to bring home. This guy must have had chicken legs for he didnt last long in the open seas. (+4 months at sea) Got as far as the coast of South America and sunk on his way back not even discovering a port to let his hungry sailors off to stretch out the cranky muscles.

It wasn't till 3 or 5 years later till I get my next Exployer. Thruough that time I've got one thing to add to my story, which I hope you all enjoy, is my vasualization of Papul states. I let the pope keep all of his provinces. A stronger Vassul is nice to have, But noticed 5 Ducites a year ! He must be holding out on me ! That swine ! Sending my Diplomates to the fathers lands I discovered that Venice is in the moment of almost concuring My Vassel ! ! OMG ! ! Luckly, I've learned to always Garuntee the independence of my Vassuls. Its a must do. War it is apon Venice and its friends. Venice must have not expected this for it just took one battle to win and the white flag waving in my face. Even noticed that Venice made peace with papul states pleasing me. I obliged and accepted peace. Even noticed after peace talks that Venice and Papul states do not have a papul bull between them. There will be peace there for awhile I think.

I've been wondering about this diplomacy ascpect of the game. You can't ask a country to not go to war or stop warring on another country. Just intervine by helping out one side or the other.

Now I'm at peace with everyone. My lands have expanded to Gibraltar, Some of North Africa, and Napals. I get my second Explorer. He has found land in south america and succeded in placing a collony there. I think now is time to stop being a bad boy. Just checked game time This is all by 1432. Doing well for single player game?


Now my story difinatly shows that Portugal is in direct competition for the Americas. Hell, A good player could bet out Spain to the islands. Would have to trick Spain to do it. I'm sure no Spain player would want a large pressence of Portugese settlers in the Americas. Would take a smart player to fool the spainards.

From what I've read on Portugal, People think she has to go get India and asia. Americas closer.

 

[Mowers]

Sorry Seafairingjoe, I'm a a bit confused, was any of the above done in MP? Or was it in SP?

 

[Damocles]

It is a bad idea to be Portugal unless the player of Castile/Aragon is either a good friend of yours or feeling very benevolent.

 

[Mowers]

Originally posted by tearjn
It is a bad idea to be Portugal unless the player of Castile/Aragon is either a good friend of yours or feeling very benevolent.

How can you say this? Portugal is a great country and faces no threat at all from any Spanish player over the age of 14.

Spain is set to inherit Portugal in 1576 ( I cant remember the exact date on this one) why would it want to attack Portugal? Its like pressing the self destruct button. Why not let Portugal build up and then take advantage of the event. In the board game Portugal switches to Russia at around this time IRC. Most of the games I host I normally have the Portugese player switch at this point and most would be glad to, its downhill from there and being ripped apart by every other colonial power isnt interesting. Anyway its more realistic in 6- player games providing a decent BoP.

Spain has everything to gain from the Portugese having a large empire and not just because it inherits it. Portugal cant afford to go to war with Spain and Portugal stops England, France and Holland from expanding so fast in Africa and the Far East.

In addition to this if Spain decides to attack Portugal then he will invariably have to deal with the rest of Europe, in particular France, taking advantage of Spanish distractions. Seeing that Spain has most of the new world to colonise and a distinctly menacing France to deal with it would be suicide to attack Portugal in all but the most extreme circumstances. Why bother? It has absolutely no strategic merit that I can think of.

Portugal, likewise, needs stability in order to establish an empire and friendship with Spain is critical. A land war would not suit it.

Finally, the treaty of Torseillades (sp) automatically places Spain and Portugal in the same strategic camp. For Spain to attack its natural ally at this point would have no value in it what so ever and the rest of the wannabe colonisers who have to be very sneaky at this point to avoid colonial ‘walk in’s’ would love such a conflict.

 

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Interesting

Interesting perspective Bmoors. My story was all in SP. Havent had the chance to join in a game yet.

I do remember Spain does concuer Portugal in History for a good long period of time. How does the game handle it? Is there a time when Portugal gains back its Independance from Spain?

Since we're all trying to brainstorm here concerning Spain, all I can do is make suggestions.

I'll try to finish my SP GC with portugal. See how it goes. hehe

 

[Damocles]

Bmoores,

Unfortunately, your take on the portugal/spain situation is in my experience, almost entirely opposite.

I have never seen a Portugal player willingly hand his country over to Spain in the spirit of the event and go off to play somebody else.

As for the comment about it not being a problem if the Spanish player is over 14...Hah. Like it or not, Portugal is in competition with Spain. Portugal cannot do anything contrary to Spain. If it does, it gets bitch slapped in a couple minutes. It's maps are stolen (as the capital is conquered) and Spain can help itself to whatever colonial possessions it reaps.

Dealing with portugal will not put Spain at significant risk from France either.

I've seen two players two times as Portugal and Spain in the 1492 scenario and it has worked out two ways. The first time, the two players knew each other well RL, and were a Iberian team, colonizing themselves silly. This didn't stop me as France, ransacking their capitals for maps every so often =P. (I tend to play more violent games with those I know, while giving more leeway to online acquitances).

The other time I saw a Portugal and Spain combo, it was an online game with at the time, mostly strangers. Spain beat Portugal silly. Repeatedly. Mostly because Spain wanted all of Portugal's colonies. It was pointless. There was nothing Portugal could do but get violated every so often.

Now, is this because Spain's player was a immature 14 year old? No. Portugal dared to colonize where Spain wanted to colonize instead. Portugal had no choice but to completely fall in line with Spain's foreign policy.

So like I said. If you're going to be Portugal, I hope that the person playing Spain is an take it lying down type or else a friend, or you're going to find your ambitions severely curbed.

 

[Mowers]

Originally posted by tearjn
Bmoores,

Unfortunately, your take on the portugal/spain situation is in my experience, almost entirely opposite.

I have never seen a Portugal player willingly hand his country over to Spain in the spirit of the event and go off to play somebody else.

As for the comment about it not being a problem if the Spanish player is over 14...Hah. Like it or not, Portugal is in competition with Spain. Portugal cannot do anything contrary to Spain. If it does, it gets bitch slapped in a couple minutes. It's maps are stolen (as the capital is conquered) and Spain can help itself to whatever colonial possessions it reaps.

Dealing with portugal will not put Spain at significant risk from France either.

I've seen two players two times as Portugal and Spain in the 1492 scenario and it has worked out two ways. The first time, the two players knew each other well RL, and were a Iberian team, colonizing themselves silly. This didn't stop me as France, ransacking their capitals for maps every so often =P. (I tend to play more violent games with those I know, while giving more leeway to online acquitances).

The other time I saw a Portugal and Spain combo, it was an online game with at the time, mostly strangers. Spain beat Portugal silly. Repeatedly. Mostly because Spain wanted all of Portugal's colonies. It was pointless. There was nothing Portugal could do but get violated every so often.

Now, is this because Spain's player was a immature 14 year old? No. Portugal dared to colonize where Spain wanted to colonize instead. Portugal had no choice but to completely fall in line with Spain's foreign policy.

So like I said. If you're going to be Portugal, I hope that the person playing Spain is an take it lying down type or else a friend, or you're going to find your ambitions severely curbed.

Interesting feedback

I perfectly well understood your orginal point. All I was adding that it does not make strategic sense for Spain to alienate Portugal and that do so would be a folly in all but the most bizarre strategic circumstances.

You've never seen players hand over? I reckon I have about 1500 years of 6 player MP and have seen it happen more than enough. If you want decent, large MP games then you have to have different countries for different periods. 8 Players simply isnt enough and is often a luxury anyhow.

So you managed to defeat Portugal and Spain. That doesnt actually support your point, rather it upholds mine. That you managed to defeat them is a credit to your abilities whilst demonstrating that France has the capability to take on both.
Which further reinforces my point that Spain needs the support of Portugal as a counterbalance to French military strength.

In your 2nd game. You say that Spain hammered Portugal. Why didnt the English or French player intervene? Were they asleep or simply underage? .

In a 1492 start Portugal can colonise anywhere in the world, if it wants to antagonise Spain by trampling in his zone of control then it was a fairly foolhardy and ill advised move. You use the phrase 'bitch slapped' a term that I wouldnt personally use but, yes, this is true. But again Spain, as demonstrated by your first experience, can not afford to push Portugal into an enemy camp? Its not a particularly tricky balance. Spain has bigger things to worry about than portugal and should be able to acheive a working relationship with all but the most belligent players.

Now, neither of your points really detracts from my analysis, indeed it actually confirms my point, and nor has has it led me to question my orginal strategic analysis and I would like to think that I constantly question my own conclusions with the discovery of new information. So I still believe that it does not make strategic sense for Spain not to have Portugal as an Ally in a 1492 setup.