Spanish Rules

[Endre Fodstad]

Yes....the old warrior heroes always go bad in modern times...but this isn't usually something the historians are responsible for. Rather, its the PCness of modern society that's to blame.

Blame? Why yes! Our own politicos quite often do things that are just as reprehensible as conquering Wales by fire&sword (well, almost), if not quite so openly.

Bugger them all. We need anew set.

EF

 

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We do need some new heroes - because sporting stars don't really cut it for me (though I do like sport). I just can't get all excited by the thought of David Beckham. As for modern politicians - YUK. Any ideas who the modern heroes of the western world could be?

 

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Re: The new re-writers of History

Originally posted by Duque de Alba
I laugh a lot about the quote about the Cid, because the psychologist of my high school says he was a not -political -correct person, a killer of moors, a fanatic of Christian White supremacy, a new Ariel Sharon who wanted to expell the Muslim people from their homeland, etc.. and that today, NGO (SOS Racism, Solidarity with the immigrant, Friends of Palestine Association)would sue him and put on jail. If you try to defend him, you are against the Islam people, a Nazi, etc..

You have psychologists in high schools there? Que raro.
What is the party line on military figures who fought in wars of DEFENSE, as opposed to wars of CONQUEST? Like some of the guerrillas leaders during the Napoleanic occupation, for example.

 

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My region Asturias has some heroes. Don Pelayo, for example, first king of Asturias who won the battle of Covadonga agaisnt the Moors. Or Colonel Riego, who fought against Ferdinand VII's absolutism.

About the Peninsular War, we have the mayor of Móstoles, who DOWed the French Empire, Captains Daoíz and Velarde and lt Ruiz in Madrid, who tried to organize the rebellion against the French in May 2, General Dupont, who won the first battle against the French in Bailén, General Palafox and the Maid of Zaragoza, in Aragón, General Alvarez de Castro in Gerona, and Juan Martín Díaz, "el Empecinado" famous guerrilla leader who btw was murdered by the stupid king Ferdinand once he returned to Spain.

 

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who the modern heroes of the western world could be? No Idea

presumably Magellan is still a legitimate hero for Spain

Ha! Once I heard a new historian spoking about him. Magellan should not have desembarked in Cebu Island because he was prepotent with plenty of fire arms and the natives were poor and armed with bows and spears and they did not do nothing against Magellan, and then Magellan had a death due to his arrogance, etc... (Magellan died in the same way than Captain Cook did)
Indeed, EU teaches me how hard was the exploration and conquest at that time. People today are deceived by reports and newsTV. One Spanish group of aid to Ruanda-Burundi was killed and stabbed by hundred of natives who were the destiny of their love, rugs, medicines, etc.... What did they think while they were stabbed?
At least, when I was in UK, I saw that Britons were proud of their flag, not representative of blood and kills.

the guerrillas leaders during the Napoleanic occupation

More quotes of the psychologist: Napoleon want to free the world, and the guerrillas leaders were paesants without culture, illetrates, ... I think if the psychologist had been there, in 1808, he would had carried the flowers to Bonaparte when he crossed the border.
Now I remember a TV series: "the 500 nations", of Kevin Costner. Several chiefs spoke about Coronel G. Washington ( a non-grata person) , and General Custer, and others. They employed the same criticizing line against them. For instance, Custer was a hero for me, as the Patrol Wilson did in SA 1878, or Leonidas in Thermophylae, etc... A few people against a lot. An heroic action. But according to that braineaters, Leonidas must be put in trial because he kill a lot of Perses.

General Dupont, who won the first battle against the French in Bailén

hey, Gorion! Spanish General Castaños won the battle of Bailén 1808 to French General Dupont. Dupont is a French name. Don't worry me! If you mix the Spanish History, I will leave the country!

 

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[q]hey, Gorion! Spanish General Castaños won the battle of Bailén 1808 to French General Dupont. Dupont is a French name. Don't worry me! If you mix the Spanish History, I will leave the country![/q]

sorry

 

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Isnt there any interesting Spanish war ??

Isnt there any interesting Spanish European war ??
We have all heard about the French Revolutionary war, The Franco-Prussian war.
Thirty years war.
But as for Spain, the only famous one i can think of (pre 20th century) is the Spanish (Throne something) war...
Any other interesting real grand war on the european continent ?

 

[laurent]

Originally posted by Admiral Yi
Relevant historical trivia that I found interesting: the Spanish name for the Spanish Armada is "la armada invencible."

The same name is used in french : l'invicible armada. I suspect it has been called that way originally...at least, the irony of the name probably explains why it has been remembered that way....

 

[Txini]

spanish wars

Isnt there any interesting Spanish European war ??
We have all heard about the French Revolutionary war, The Franco-Prussian war.
Thirty years war.
But as for Spain, the only famous one i can think of (pre 20th century) is the Spanish (Throne something) war...
Any other interesting real grand war on the european continent ?



you mikael only had heard about the spanish succesion war, very important for europe, but there also was the war of cuba in 1898, the spanish reconquest versus moors from 728 to 1492, started in my natal asturias, the family wars allied with the french boubons since 1715, but i dont remind the dates, the south american independence war, and all of those wars on italia against french. I am sure i have forgotten some wars, but those are the most important.

 

[TheF]

There's also the Dutch War of Independance though it became part of the thirty years war after the 12 year truce, I'd say the Spanish were a part of that war .

By the way, the Dutch have lots of heroes from that war and the subsequent golden age (ie. William of Orange, his son Maurice of Orange, Piet Heyn, Michiel de Ruyter, and (lots) more.

 

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Re: spanish wars

Txini, if you want to reply with name, there is an option below each post (quote)

Originally posted by Txini

Isnt there any interesting Spanish European war ??
...
I am sure i have forgotten some wars, but those are the most important.

A few wars more, after 1800. Indeed, there was not any Spanish participation in Europe after the Pyrenees crossing in 1814. We prefered fight against us.


War of the Oranges 1801
Peninsular War 1808-14
Argentine Independence 1810
Chilean Revolt 1810
Mexian War of Independence 1810-23
US Occupation of West Florida 1810
Banda Oriental Occupation 1811
Paraguayan Revolt 1811
Venezuelan Revolt 1811-12
Bolivar in Venezuela 1813-14
Chile: The Reconquest 1814
San Martin's War 1814-24
Spanish Invasion: New Granada 1815-6
Bolivar in Venezuela 1816-18
Chilean War of Independence 1817-18
Bolivar in New Granada 1819-20
Spanish Civil War 1820-23
Bolivar in Venezuela 1821
Republican Campaign: Ecuador 1822
Occupation of Spanish Haiti 1822
Franco-Spanish War 1823 (Cien Mil Hijos de San Luis)
Republican Campaign: Bolivia 1824
War of the Two Brothers 1828-34
Mexican-Spanish War 1829
First Carlist War 1833-39
Spanish Civil War 1840-43
Second Carlist War 1846-48
French Indochina War 1858-63
Moroccan War 1859-60
Dominican Restoration War 1861-65
Chincha Islands War 1864-66
Ten Years War in Cuba 1868-78
Third Carlist War in Spain 1872-76
Rif War 1893
Cuban Independence 1895-98
Philippine Rebellion 1896-1898
Spanish-American War 1898
Riff War 1919-26
Spanish Civil War 1936-39
Invasion of Ifni by Moroccan Irregulars 1957-8
Volunteers in WW1 (French side) and WW2 (German side)

 

[Kgw]

Heroes and some things more..

Hum... about heroes well, it just depend which is your point of view. Yesterday "heroes" are look with "today" eyes.

About Spanish in Europe... hey, when you are a second-rate country (since Trafalgar and Napoleonic wars) you cannot mess in High European Politics. We prefer to kill each other once and once again. But then, in First Carlist War, there was a British Legion... that was decimated.

Heroes: we still think that '98 heroes are heroes; they were fighting for the right thing... or at least against the USA . The main one is General Vara del Rey: he and his 520 men stand for almost whole day against a third of the American Army in Cuba (6.650 men). Almirante (Admiral) Cervera too? No! At least, not to me. Spanish Fleet could have done more things than sinking in the Big target shooting called "The Naval Battle of Santiago"
...And we cannot forget today biggest (or so) hero in Spain: Diego de Alatriste y Tenorio, a.k.a "el Capitán Alatriste" (a fictional hero, who fought in the Spanish Tercios in XVII century)

The Armada: in Phillip II's time, The Spanish Armada name was "La Gran Armada" (The Big Fleet) "La Armada Invencible" (The Invincible Fleet) was a later mockery nickname ... because it wasn't "Invencible".

BTW: modern Historians say that the Big Evil Spanish Inquisition wasn't so Big nor so Evil (still they weren't nice)

 

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There is a conspirancy theory which says that the government ordered Cervera to leave the port so the Americans could sink his fleet because the government want to end the war ASAP.

 

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About the original subject. Would there have been an English revolt? I Think there would. Philips II needed a lot of money, he tried to get it by extending the tax-system in the Netherlands. That sparked the revolt in thewhole of the Netherlands, Also the southern part. If England would have been part of the Spanish Empire, he would have tried it also there. There definitely would be a revolt.

 

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Re: Isnt there any interesting Spanish war ??

Originally posted by Mikael XII
Isnt there any interesting Spanish European war ??
We have all heard about the French Revolutionary war, The Franco-Prussian war.
Thirty years war.
But as for Spain, the only famous one i can think of (pre 20th century) is the Spanish (Throne something) war...
Any other interesting real grand war on the european continent ?

I always thought the catholic army in the 30 years war was primarily Spanish (or at least the good part). I expect the "natural border" of the Pyrenees prevented Spain from waging too many interesting wars. But I also agree that based on the historical record Spaniards (and their Latin American cousins) seem to be happiest when they are fighting themselves.

 

[Txini]

yes

there isnt any as pretty as fought spanish against spanish, it is a joke, but we will be supossed to battle aginst us.

 

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The part about "el pirata inglés Drake" is interesting to this English speaker, not because we disagree about him being a pirate, but because the commander of the English fleet was Lord Howard (?) and this quotation indicates to me that the historical character of Drake has a special place in the Spanish mind.
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Yes,.... Drake was a serious enemy at sea, very inteligent indeed, but I personnally respect much more Lord Howard or Nelson than Drake.
There's no honor at capturing merchants.

In the other hand, the history of the spanish pirates has always been hidden because it was 'a pain' in the 'glorious'history of Spain.
For instance, very few people know Pero Niño, pirate of XIV who won every fight against english ships,burned some districts of London, and took the island of Wight capturing 80+ english merchants, the no-named corsairs of Filipinas, cutting the commerce of Holland,England and Portugal ,capturing hundreds of ships from these nations and driving away the 'chinese armada' that tried to invade the Filipinas with more than 300 ships....

Usually nations teach to people the 'right' vision of the history...

 

[Kgw]

Originally posted by Blas de lezo
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In the other hand, the history of the spanish pirates has always been hidden because it was 'a pain' in the 'glorious'history of Spain.
For instance, very few people know Pero Niño, pirate of XIV who won every fight against english ships,burned some districts of London, and took the island of Wight capturing 80+ english merchants, the no-named corsairs of Filipinas, cutting the commerce of Holland,England and Portugal ,capturing hundreds of ships from these nations and driving away the 'chinese armada' that tried to invade the Filipinas with more than 300 ships....

Oidme, Don Blas, ¿existe algun manuscrito, libro o pergamino que trate de aquestos temas que referis? Sentiríame enormemente agradecido si me lo comunicarais.
English Translation: "Hey, there's any book about Spanish Pirates? Names? Authors? Pleeese..."
OK.I know. A very free translation...

 

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Originally posted by Kgw


Oidme, Don Blas, ¿existe algun manuscrito, libro o pergamino que trate de aquestos temas que referis? Sentiríame enormemente agradecido si me lo comunicarais.
English Translation: "Hey, there's any book about Spanish Pirates? Names? Authors? Pleeese..."
OK.I know. A very free translation...

Si, existe. Se trata de un compendio de personajes y combates en forma de diccionario historico. Vienen batallas navales como la de la Rochela, donde una flota castellana hecho a pique a la royal navy capturando al almirante ingles Pembroke, el almirante bocanegra derrotando una flota argelina de 200 naves capturando la gran biblioteca del califa que hoy se encuentra en Madrid, y por la que el califa ofrecio un rescate de miles de monedas de oro, el corsario sanchez tovar que se dedico a la pirateria como venganza tras ser asaltada su nao en el mar del norte y vengo la muerte de su padre en la batalla de aljubarrota capturando 9 galeones portugueses y echando al mar a 800 prisioneros atados de pies y manos, krakon, un pirata ibero que saqueo centenares de naves romanas y por el que el emperador augusto ofrecio una recompensa tan alta que el mismo krakon se presento en roma a reclamarla y el emperador le tomo a su servicio....

Te dire la editorial y el titulo de la obra cuando vaya el proximo fin de semana a mi tierra.
Tambien te recomiendo si tienes la oportunidad, de mirar algunos titulos publicados en Francia.Son los que mejor tienen documentados los hechos en la edad media.

Un saludo Kgw

 

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The Empire where the sun never sets

I am soooo glad to realize that there are so many fellow Spaniards in these forums. There is even a "Duque de Alba" ... obviuosly my name is the same but in English to make it easier to our fellow foreign gamers...

It also seems that most of us are quite knowledgeable about the 15-18th century in Europe... doh, it is the the best part of the Spanish history... empire-wise at least ;-)

Duque y otros, a ver si me podeis recomendar algunos buenos libros de esta epoca que pueda comprar por internet que estoy un poquito lejos de la madre patria ok?

Onto the "Duque de Alba" thingy... maybe our Dutch friends remember that name... I have been told that Dutch families used to scare their children to make them go to bed when desobedients by menting the Duke's name... so terrifying were the assaults and subsequent pillages of Dutch rebel towns.

There a few novels by a Spanish writer called Arturo Perez Reverte that describe how life was during the long sieges that Spanish and Dutch used to perform on those days.... really frightening if you ask me... specially when the sieged town didnt surrender soon. Apparently the sieging army was so pissed off after months of siege that once the town conquered, pillage was a sort of revenge for the attrition suffered on the outside of the walls while waiting. In the other hand if the town surrendered soon, pillage was controlled by the generals... and that was a statemnent that everybody knew.

Saludos!!

Alba