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unmerged(63189)

unmerged(63189)

First Lieutenant
Dec 1, 2006
250
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why don't you learn some history?

1) not polish but ukrainian volunteers (and still only reason they worked with germans was that Ukrainians hated Soviets, and hoped to finally get their own country)
2) correct name - ss galizien
3) formed in Ukraine, not CRACOW!
4) no self respecting nor self notrespecting Pole would join ss and doooon't you forget it!
5) even if there were such scum, not enough to form a division - this makes it ahistorical/fantasy/bugged/silly as hell event
6) is ss_juden/ss_israel division next?

edit: my anger went off :), please submit topic-related posts only
 
Last edited:
Clamence said:
why don't you learn some history?

1) not polish but ukrainian volunteers (and still only reason they worked with germans was that Ukrainians hated Soviets, and hoped to finally get their own country)
2) correct name - ss galizien
3) formed in Ukraine, not CRACOW!
4) no self respecting nor self notrespecting Pole would join ss and doooon't you forget it!
5) even if there were such scum, not enough to form a division - this makes it ahistorical/fantasy/bugged/silly as hell event
6) is ss_juden/ss_israel division next?
Click to expand...

1) ukraine didn't exist at that time, these people were poles at the time, I come from skåne, but skåne ain't a country so I am swedish :p
You're a very angry man, please remove yourself from this forum.
2) english: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_Division
please try to be more open when you critizice. Just becase they used the english word and not the gerrman doesn't make it wrong.
3) Galicia (Central Europe), an historical region which is currently divided between Poland and Ukraine. ( back then it was just polish).
I am not sure on facts, but I suspect that Cracow is the first larger city they were formed in under german banner.
4) These people seems to have been poles, since ukraine didn't exist at that time.
5) see Wikipedia again : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_Division
See? a division? no wai! :zeecry:
 
Last edited:
Clamence said:
why don't you learn some history?

1) not polish but ukrainian volunteers (and still only reason they worked with germans was that Ukrainians hated Soviets, and hoped to finally get their own country)
2) correct name - ss galizien
3) formed in Ukraine, not CRACOW!
4) no self respecting nor self notrespecting Pole would join ss and doooon't you forget it!
5) even if there were such scum, not enough to form a division - this makes it ahistorical/fantasy/bugged/silly as hell event
6) is ss_juden/ss_israel division next?
Click to expand...


Who says it's polish volunteers?

The 14.Galizische SS-Freiwilligen-Division was raised in Debica in Poland, (mostly) from volunteers among the ukrainians living in the area of Galicia.

EDIT: @ztanz: I belive Debica lies east of Cracow and I suppose in game thats the same province as Cracow.
 
I know where Galicia is and where Debica is VERY well. The fact that there were no Ukraine at the time doesn't make Poles of Ukrainians joing SS - in fact those who joined were hated by Polish citizens and targets of attacks from Polish underground Government - Armia Krajowa. We were multinational country then, with large Ukrainian minority. This event insinuates that those volunteers were Poles - clearly by reading it ('our new relationship with >Poland<' - what relationship? everyday shooting people on the streets?! building ghettos and death camps for the Jews?!) one can only tell that it is Poles who join SS - which NEVER happened, on the contrary, every effort was made to cripple german war machine, along with Yugoslavia and USSR we had heaviest resistance (Armia Krajowa).

And about place of forming of division - it was Lwów - Lviv - historically both Polish and Ukrainian city - untill XIIIth century Ruthenian / Ruś / one of many 'Russian' counties, then conquered by Polish king Kazimierz Wielki - Kasimir the Great, and in Poland till end of IRP = end of XVIII's century, then back in Poland from 1918 - after being defended by local Polish popolation from local Ukrainian population - which makes Ukrainian claim it was THEIRS. After German aggression - it fell into German hands, and under occupation propaganda was spreaded among Ukrainians to recieve volunteers - which succeeded = forming of Galicia / German (historrical) name Galizien (which in my opinion is correct if the mod is using German names such as 'Tottenkopf' etc. )

About name Galicia - believe me or not, but it 'moved'. Once part of Austrian occupation ('zabór') of what used to be Poland, it included Kraków (Cracow) and was a bit more west, and was referred to bigger part of land, after regaining independence by Poland, name was used mostly for eastern parts of former Galicia (Galicja) - former and todays western Ukraine, and did not include Kraków 'district' for which we used name Małopolska. This 'eastern' Galicia (Galicja Wschodnia) is where the name came from, not Cracow, so - revolt risk in Cracow is a mistake - if anywhere it should be stryj/lvow, but more probably even more to the east, as most volunteers came from soviet side of todays Ukraine after german invaded SU, thats where they greeted by some Ukrainians.


Poland was one of the countries that suffered most because of the war
I think it is historically a lie and totally unfair towards many who died and suffered during IIWW to insinuate that Poles took part in forming of SS units which we in Poland hate and portrait them as murderers in history books that they actually were. Don't forget who was sent to fight Warsaw Uprising - it was SS. I myself had lost grandfather who was a partisan fighting Germans - he managed to save 3 people, but didn't make it himself. My other grandfather who was in labour camp in south Germany had to flee via Baden See to Switzerland (was caught first time, luckily they didn't kill him and he escaped again). My best friend's grandfather fought in General Sosabowski's 1SBS (1st Polish Airborne Brigade) in operation Market-Garden. There are many such examples, and You will not find examples of colaboration (there actually as always were, but marginal, and human scum).

Therefore I ask to change this event to something that isn't something like this injustice towards those brave people...
 
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Clamence said:
(which in my opinion is correct if the mod is using German names such as 'Tottenkopf' etc. )
Click to expand...

I believe that is a built in name, I am sure they use both english and german (maybe other languages aswell) on divisions, since they are a few people working on it I guess it happens, we'll see if they change it or not.

Clamence said:
Therefore I ask to change this event to something that isn't something like this injustice towards those brave people...
Click to expand...

Why is it such injustice? they are poles even though they are from former ukraine, just not with the same oppinion as the partisans you talk about.
 
Clamence said:
why don't you learn some history?

1) not polish but ukrainian volunteers (and still only reason they worked with germans was that Ukrainians hated Soviets, and hoped to finally get their own country)
2) correct name - ss galizien
3) formed in Ukraine, not CRACOW!
4) no self respecting nor self notrespecting Pole would join ss and doooon't you forget it!
5) even if there were such scum, not enough to form a division - this makes it ahistorical/fantasy/bugged/silly as hell event
6) is ss_juden/ss_israel division next?
Click to expand...

Why don't you learn some manners? And take a tranquilizer while you are at it. For the record I never identified the ethnicity of the volunteers. I simply mentioned recruitment in Poland & Galicia. Prior to WW2 Galicia was 100% in Poland. For those who are interested these are my on line sources:

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1959
http://www.feldgrau.com/14ss.html

mm
 
Clamence said:
why don't you learn some history?

1) not polish but ukrainian volunteers (and still only reason they worked with germans was that Ukrainians hated Soviets, and hoped to finally get their own country)
2) correct name - ss galizien
3) formed in Ukraine, not CRACOW!
4) no self respecting nor self notrespecting Pole would join ss and doooon't you forget it!
5) even if there were such scum, not enough to form a division - this makes it ahistorical/fantasy/bugged/silly as hell event
6) is ss_juden/ss_israel division next?
Click to expand...

Dear Clamence,

Please feel free to create your own MOD and publish it as soon as possible. We eagerly await the opportunity to be equally self righteous and rude in regards to our critic of your efforts as you were to the selfless makers of CORE.

Sincerely,

The Silent Majority

ps. get bent
 
ztanz said:
they are poles even though they are from former ukraine, just not with the same oppinion as the partisans you talk about.
Click to expand...

They were Poles? They were Ukrainians, with their culture, history, wishes of independence. It doesn't take just one to live in country to be of its nationality - if so, then we could call everyone Germans, as technically it was Germany then.
Don't mess nationality with country in which one lives, and I already wrote that IIRP was multinational country.
I wonder if you actually know history, or are you just basing on this game, or at best - wikipedia knowledge?
 
well now it isnt good to criticize Your mod?
i grew tired of reading hundreds of love-postcards.
I don't mean I don't like the mod, cause I do, but that I won't write, cause whats the point of another "oh i love CORE so muuuch :D:D:D:D" ?
I mearly want to point out serious historical mistakes, as CORE is historical (thats what i was told , at least "non fantasy) mod.
and I got pissed, because of matters that I already wrote in my second post - SS is regarded criminal organisation in my country, and here they've commited many terrible crimes, plus I have personal hate towards them <- (read 2nd post ... ), thats why I was stunned when I got this event. Its just wrong, maybe You know those were Ukrainians not Poles, but not everyone who plays it knows history, and they might get this kind of "knowledge". Its not that difficult anyway. I already corrected it in my CORE, but it would be better if other people didnt get those kind of informations
 
Hi,

I have no problems with criticism. But starting out with "why don't you learn some history?" is insulting. I've put in 1000's of hours modding at HSR and CORE and I don't need to take that kind of crap from anyone.

mm
 
yes yes I know it wasnt pleasant, don't you all tell me this, you don't need to be a genius to see this.

i am a bit embarrased now, so im sorry to have jumped on you, but i was seriously mad at this event - such obvious! and still am, so i just let the steam off (thats how you say it?).

nevertheless the matter of SS-Poland is still open and should be dealt with...
 
PanzerWilly said:
Ahmm. Maybe you shouldn't play with Germany if it upsets you so much.
Click to expand...
Well said. And anyone who's that sensitive shouldn't be posting in international public forums. Especially if they have a serious lack of manners.
 
well i am sensitive, I don't mind playing Germany, I just went crazy about this one event, and well,
I would like next posts in this thread to be related more to the topic which is "is this polish-ss event correct", no moralizing me :)
 
Hi,

I do appreciate that the subject of the SS is a difficult one for many people, particularilly those from areas that were on the receiving end of Nazi violence.

As far as the events go I'm working with the information I have which indicates that the troops are from Galicia and the unit trained in Debicia. This area would include Cracow, Przemysl and Stryj from the looks of things, while Debicia appears to be on the eastern edge of the Cracow province. My information indicates about 15% of the prewar "Polish" population was ethnically Ukrainian and also indicates that there were troubles with Ukrainian nationalists. But one way or the other these people were Polish citizens prior to the war and ther Germans managed to get plenty of volunteers. And even after the German occupation this area was never annexed AFAIK as it all remained in the General Gouvernment. The reason I didn't use this term is the events are structured for the possibility of POL still remaining as an independent nation and supporting GER against the SOV as either an ally or with volunteer forces like SPA did. That's also why I use the term "new relationship" as it covers all of the possible options. Using more historically accurate text would be fine in most games, but would seem out of place if a player chose a less aggressive path. I hope this clarifies why I made some of the design choices here.

mm
 
Hmmm I thought it is CORE's policy to avoid topics such as death camps, mass murdering, forced conscription etc isn't it ? :confused:


In this case if indeed SS-Galizien is made as POLISH you got very far away from that policy.

I understand the difference between Anglo-Saxon perception of nationality ( which equals citizenship) and that used in this part of Europe ( nationality based on consent - as something different from citizenship and ethnicity) - mind that the very idea of national MINORITY is essential in the second approach.

Now add to this the very fact that there were no forms of organised collaboration with the Nazis in Poland (and those disorganised forms were limited to certain circles usually of criminal activities) and YES we are damn proud of that so if you really made SS Galizien as a Polish SS unit you not only broke with your apparently only declared policy but would make every historian knowing the topic laugh.


I find it unprofessional. And don't you dare to answer me that I should make my own mod if I don't like it - that is sooo silly. :)

I suggest to write a suitable description for the unit/its event to deal with this question as it should be.


Am I clear ?


My regards.
 
cegorah I guess Your sheechcraft is better than mine :), that was my point anyway:

although they lived in Poland, they were not Poles, and shortly after the war they started a bloody campaign against Poles - 100k-500k Poles murdered, and 20k Ukrainians in retaliation actions, After this, action "Vistula" (Wisła) 'had to' be undertaken (thats my opinion, many disagree with this operation; it was "nessesary evil" unless we would like to have 2nd Balkans right inside our country, examples of Ukrainian terror were terrible, if anyone is interested I can write some from a book I've read recently) - brutal re-setteling of Ukrainians from those areas to newly acquiered Eastern Prussia (Warmia), Pomorze Zachodnie (Western Seaside/Stettin).

I don't blame you for not knowing Polish-Ukrainian history, its long, difficult and not easy, and You are not from this parts; I only ask to be precise when making 'historical events'. As well said before, we Poles take great pride in being 'the first to fight' against Germany, and never colaborating (unlike many western countries). This is major part of our national heritage, best writers/heroes, "Generation of Columbus'es", from which even the Pope emerged (Pokolenie Kolumbów). This event really indicates Polish involvement in creation of SS (OK, Polish lands, but not at all nation). As far as I know, volunteers didn't come from Cracow areas, forming/training centres may be there (although proclamation of division forming was made in Lvov), but population would rather emerge from eastern parts - Lvov and more east, cause simply thats where Ukrainians lived. There is no way that dissent in Cracow, where there weren't many Ukrainans, plus- neighbouring to Aushwitz horrors, went down, because Germans suddenly got this great idea to use Ukrainians independence dreams to gain some cannon fodder.

I totally support Ukrainian right to have their country, thruought whole 800-year history, even when we occupied their lands, but one can not do this via such criminal actions which they commenced. Nor can one say that those actions were commited by Poles, while many fought Nazi Germany and died.

My proposition is, if You have to lower the dissent - moving it more east, Lvov areas -5, maybe Soviet Ukraine -1/-2, and not calling this" new realetionship with Poland", cause there was NO relationship with Poland, only Ukrainians, let's call it relationship with "Ukrainians", "Ukrainian minority" (and remember that most Ukrainians still were good folks, and wouldn't join SS, which were pure evil). That will make an unsetteling (for player) gap of dissent in the middle of former Poland, but You can't blame them for not liking German invaders, can you?
 
Hi,

The 14. SS was never involved in any of the topics you are describing as far as I can tell from the historical records. So I don't see where you would get the idea it violates Paradox policy. And as I noted earlier I didn't say the troops were Polish, just that the recruitment ocurred in Poland. Like it or not, tens of thousands of Ukrainians threw their lot in with the Germans. Doesn't say much for Polish/Ukraininan relations in Poland prior to WW2.

mm
 
Clamence said:
why don't you learn some history?

1) not polish but ukrainian volunteers (and still only reason they worked with germans was that Ukrainians hated Soviets, and hoped to finally get their own country)
2) correct name - ss galizien
3) formed in Ukraine, not CRACOW!
4) no self respecting nor self notrespecting Pole would join ss and doooon't you forget it!
5) even if there were such scum, not enough to form a division - this makes it ahistorical/fantasy/bugged/silly as hell event
6) is ss_juden/ss_israel division next?

edit: my anger went off :), please submit topic-related posts only
Click to expand...
Go make your own mod or edit the event yourself. I mean my god you are throwing a big fit about something so tiny and being rather rude. Maybe when all the bugs are worked out and all the stuff they want added in core is done then they can work out typos or stuff this minor. Or you can make your own core mod and see if you can get every tiny thing correct. :rolleyes:
 
Hi,

Do you have any demographic info actually showing the population breakdown in western Galicia prior to WW2? That would make it a simple matter if there aren't many Ukrainians living in that area. Shifting the trigger province to Lvov would be an option as well and sounds like it might better fit the reality of what happened. I'll have to look at the event to see how that would work in practice. As for rewording, I think making it more explict that the unit was of formed from Ukrainians is possible. I'd probbally keep most of the text the same for now and just refer to Galicia and Ukrainians while deleting any reference to Poland.

mm
 
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