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multi-species growth was nerfed few patches ago together with Xeno-Compatibility so it's not really worth it. Pop growth is capped so it's not that good. What you want is pop assembly so you want to go biogenesis or sync/robots for lots of pops without conquest

People defending the blatantly broken pop growth right now, including multi species somehow breeding faster even at the same pop numbers as usual.
People defending the blatantly broken pop growth right now, including multi species somehow breeding faster even at the same pop numbers as usual.
I agree with you. The last game I played was Broken Shackles on Grand Admiral and the Pop Growth was so insane on all of my planets that I was able to stomp out the AI in no time due to having a vastly superior economy from having way more Pops. It felt like I was playing Wilderness Origin since pops were basically getting printed. This is without any Job Growth Modifiers at all.

It feels like Pop Growth Modifiers like from Xenophobe or Expansion Tradition tree for example don't seem to work as well as it did in 3.14 if its even working at all.

Either way I can't really tell because the new UI is complete Dog Water and doesn't give as much information as in 3.14.
 
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Is there a point in making self-sufficient planets, or say mining+industry together, to avoid too much logistic/trade upkeep?
IIRC, under default settings, each point of logistics lets you move 8 units of upkeep resources, which is relatively cheap. I'd be interested to try a game where I turn this up (the slider goes up to 5x, which would be 1.6 upkeep per point of logistics), as I imagine that would make self-sufficiency a much more valuable approach. I'm not sure if the AI would be able to handle this.

Under default settings, it's probably almost never optimal, but it seems like there's enough margin for error that you're probably not going to gimp yourself building self-sustaining planets.
 
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I fired up a test game now just to experience the newest patch.

I can't play.

A :
The AI empires are total pushovers. GA no scaling 2x modifiers, they are much easier than before 4.0, they do almost nothing.

B :
The new planet economy and user interface, I spend a lot more time trying to fine-tune the planets. Way too much time.
It is a massive chore, the micromanagement is incredible! Who thought this was a great idea, I can not believe it.
This is of course the dealbreaker, no way I spend hours upon hours with this.

As a great Stellaris fan who wish only the best for the game, I got to set this aside until a day where the micromanagement has been dialed back.
 
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A :
The AI empires are total pushovers. GA no scaling 2x modifiers, they are much easier than before 4.0, they do almost nothing.
Yes, it's quite terrible, AI was barely adjusted to use the new systems.
B :
The new planet economy and user interface, I spend a lot more time trying to fine-tune the planets. Way too much time.
It is a massive chore, the micromanagement is incredible! Who thought this was a great idea, I can not believe it.
This is of course the dealbreaker, no way I spend hours upon hours with this.
I have a lot of problems with the new systems. But I don't think micromanagement has actually increased for me? Things are certainly a lot harder to find, because the UI is worse.
 
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I have a lot of problems with the new systems. But I don't think micromanagement has actually increased for me? Things are certainly a lot harder to find, because the UI is worse.

This, as others have noted, understanding pop growth and migration is a complete nightmare.
 
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Is there a point in making self-sufficient planets, or say mining+industry together, to avoid too much logistic/trade upkeep?
It’s useful early on, when you have a shortage of both planets and pops. But as your supply of those things expands, and you gain access to the +job output techs, it makes sense to gradually centralize production of any given resource.
 
This was removed in last weeks patch.
No, Xenocompatibility buffing it to absurd levels was removed last week. Fairly sure several species growing faster is still a thing.
 
No, Xenocompatibility buffing it to absurd levels was removed last week. Fairly sure several species growing faster is still a thing.
Do I get a present if your wrong? Because despite the patch notes insisting otherwise you are in fact wrong. They changed it to a shared global cap and every species now contributes to biological pop growth as far as I can tell the only thing xenocompatibility does now is give you a 20% increase. I have commented it on multiple threads the devs are on and no one has said its a bug. So I assume its intentional unfortunatly the devs don't actually comment generally if changes like this are intentional or bugs for reasons that allude me.

Screen shots attached verifying it.
 

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Do I get a present if your wrong? Because despite the patch notes insisting otherwise you are in fact wrong. They changed it to a shared global cap and every species now contributes to biological pop growth as far as I can tell the only thing xenocompatibility does now is give you a 20% increase. I have commented it on multiple threads the devs are on and no one has said its a bug. So I assume its intentional unfortunatly the devs don't actually comment generally if changes like this are intentional or bugs for reasons that allude me.

Screen shots attached verifying it.
Right you are! I checked in a Broken Shackles game.

Seems like what the tooltip says it's doing is indeed doing the logistic growth equation on the whole population of all species, applying the cap, and then dividing it across all pop groups according to their current size. That division is similar to what was happening with pop assembly before.

They did mention in some patch notes that they fixed how multi-species growth works, but never explained how it works now.

I should note that the actual growth I observed was different in this Broken Shackles run: No growth for many months, the suddenly 10 or more. There might be a problem with lots of small species growing.
 
Is there a point in making self-sufficient planets, or say mining+industry together, to avoid too much logistic/trade upkeep?
It's viable, but unless you are turning up the trade cost in the game setting I don't think it's needed.
I typically do one of each resource district just offset the cost a bit and so I can use the 8nfastructure slots.
 
Not sure if anyone needs this, or will find it helpful, but I'm gonna drop what I understand about the pop growth system. (Bugs/Exploits notwithstanding.)

For organic empires, your planets have an initial monthly growth rate equal to the (Colony's Population / 400), so you have a .25 pop/month growth rate on a new colony (100 pops / 400 = 0.25), while a colony of 1200 would be 3 pop/month, 2k 5/month, 2.8k 7/month, etc.

Then, a penalty is applied when your population is too large for the planet's capacity. This penalty is essentially meaningless for large colonies, since the initial growth rate is so high (and a cap is applied to this initial growth value anyway) that this doesn't matter. For NEW COLONIES however, it can negatively affect growth - so I just build a housing building (such as luxury apartments, etc.) and I find that gives a nice capacity boost and negates most of the penalty, if not all of it.

THEN, this initial growth value, with modifiers from capacity, is capped at 5 pop/month.

So, a planet with 2.8k and 40k pop get capped at the same value of 5/month (assuming you don't have massive housing shortages, inflicting a larger capacity penalty - just make sure everyone has a place to live.)

THEN, growth rate modifiers are applied - so at the capped growth of 5/month, your 20% growth bonus brings you to 6 pop/month. (This, to my knowledge, is not capped.)

THEN, add any pop assembly (with modifiers) to that, and you get your total monthly growth.



Now, to get your population up on new colonies, you have two options:
1) Resettle a base 'breeding stock' of pops to the new world.
2) Wait for pops to resettle on their own.

Option 1 might be available depending on your laws, and cheaper depending on other factors, but I've been playing Egalitarian, and just stick with option 2.
Each colony you own will, at a base, export up to 10 pops a month via automatic resettlement to other planets you control.
(This assumes the migrating pops are civilians, or are unemployed, and the target planet has jobs/housing... and that you haven't outlawed automatic resettlement. :p)

That means that at game start, with a relatively unmodified empire, your first colony should grow at a rate of roughly 10.25 pops per month on average (10 migrants per month from your homeworld, 5 of which would be new pops, the other 5 civilians, and then the 0.25 pop per month from your existing population). As the colony grows, it gets faster, of course. Just make sure to keep open jobs and plenty of housing.

And if my very lazy math is correct (and if I know how to use a graphing calculator) a fresh colony relying on migration should hit ~1800 pops 120 months after being colonized.
During that time, your homeworld would have had to send away a net 600 civilian pops (5x120).
The trick is that the second habitable world, if colonized, would split the emigration from your homeworld between both worlds, so I've been making sure to colonize my first planet quick, then wait for it to be seeded with a decent number of pops before plopping down a second world. (like maybe around the 800 mark or so.)

Eventually, once you have a few populated colonies, you'll find new planets populate VERY quickly due to the emigration from other worlds - all you need to do is build up the housing/jobs on the new planet, then stop building new jobs on your existing worlds. New pops will be born and flock to then new world.

Lastly - if your planets growth surpasses 10/planet, you wont be able to emigrate away fast enough - some techs that raise emigration "chance" buff this rate by the chance percentage. So Transit hubs give a plus 100% - that raises the emigration to an average of 20.

There's a bunch of probability under the hood that I can't be bothered to understand - some months no one will emigrate, and then your planet will recieve 80 pops the next month, but the average values seem to line up over the course of my games.

And, of course, if you outlaw migration, then you NEED to pay to resettle pops between worlds to get that growth rate boost - otherwise, correct, your colonies will never grow. The upshot is you can cheapen the cost with species traits/civics, and just immediately fill your first colony with 2k pops for great initial growth. Then 'save up' pops for your next colony, etc etc. (I think Corvee system, or it's equivalents, are pretty nice here to avoid the unity costs though... but I don't play Authoritarian usually, so I'm not sure.)

Anyway... uh, if anyone finds something super inaccurate in there, let me know. I think that's all been pretty correct, as far as I can tell, but I'm more than happy to learn a thing or two here. haha
(And yes, I agree, the game is horrible at conveying these details, but I actually really like this system - it just lacks in all transparency, so the only reason I know any of this is from reading forum posts after 4.0 came out.)
 
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Not sure if anyone needs this, or will find it helpful, but I'm gonna drop what I understand about the pop growth system. (Bugs/Exploits notwithstanding.)

For organic empires, your planets have an initial monthly growth rate equal to the (Colony's Population / 400), so you have a .25 pop/month growth rate on a new colony (100 pops / 400 = 0.25), while a colony of 1200 would be 3 pop/month, 2k 5/month, 2.8k 7/month, etc.

Then, a penalty is applied when your population is too large for the planet's capacity. This penalty is essentially meaningless for large colonies, since the initial growth rate is so high (and a cap is applied to this initial growth value anyway) that this doesn't matter. For NEW COLONIES however, it can negatively affect growth - so I just build a housing building (such as luxury apartments, etc.) and I find that gives a nice capacity boost and negates most of the penalty, if not all of it.

THEN, this initial growth value, with modifiers from capacity, is capped at 5 pop/month.

So, a planet with 2.8k and 40k pop get capped at the same value of 5/month (assuming you don't have massive housing shortages, inflicting a larger capacity penalty - just make sure everyone has a place to live.)

THEN, growth rate modifiers are applied - so at the capped growth of 5/month, your 20% growth bonus brings you to 6 pop/month. (This, to my knowledge, is not capped.)

THEN, add any pop assembly (with modifiers) to that, and you get your total monthly growth.



Now, to get your population up on new colonies, you have two options:
1) Resettle a base 'breeding stock' of pops to the new world.
2) Wait for pops to resettle on their own.

Option 1 might be available depending on your laws, and cheaper depending on other factors, but I've been playing Egalitarian, and just stick with option 2.
Each colony you own will, at a base, export up to 10 pops a month via automatic resettlement to other planets you control.
(This assumes the migrating pops are civilians, or are unemployed, and the target planet has jobs/housing... and that you haven't outlawed automatic resettlement. :p)

That means that at game start, with a relatively unmodified empire, your first colony should grow at a rate of roughly 10.25 pops per month on average (10 migrants per month from your homeworld, 5 of which would be new pops, the other 5 civilians, and then the 0.25 pop per month from your existing population). As the colony grows, it gets faster, of course. Just make sure to keep open jobs and plenty of housing.

And if my very lazy math is correct (and if I know how to use a graphing calculator) a fresh colony relying on migration should hit ~1800 pops 120 months after being colonized.
During that time, your homeworld would have had to send away a net 600 civilian pops (5x120).
The trick is that the second habitable world, if colonized, would split the emigration from your homeworld between both worlds, so I've been making sure to colonize my first planet quick, then wait for it to be seeded with a decent number of pops before plopping down a second world. (like maybe around the 800 mark or so.)

Eventually, once you have a few populated colonies, you'll find new planets populate VERY quickly due to the emigration from other worlds - all you need to do is build up the housing/jobs on the new planet, then stop building new jobs on your existing worlds. New pops will be born and flock to then new world.

Lastly - if your planets growth surpasses 10/planet, you wont be able to emigrate away fast enough - some techs that raise emigration "chance" buff this rate by the chance percentage. So Transit hubs give a plus 100% - that raises the emigration to an average of 20.

There's a bunch of probability under the hood that I can't be bothered to understand - some months no one will emigrate, and then your planet will recieve 80 pops the next month, but the average values seem to line up over the course of my games.

And, of course, if you outlaw migration, then you NEED to pay to resettle pops between worlds to get that growth rate boost - otherwise, correct, your colonies will never grow. The upshot is you can cheapen the cost with species traits/civics, and just immediately fill your first colony with 2k pops for great initial growth. Then 'save up' pops for your next colony, etc etc. (I think Corvee system, or it's equivalents, are pretty nice here to avoid the unity costs though... but I don't play Authoritarian usually, so I'm not sure.)

Anyway... uh, if anyone finds something super inaccurate in there, let me know. I think that's all been pretty correct, as far as I can tell, but I'm more than happy to learn a thing or two here. haha
(And yes, I agree, the game is horrible at conveying these details, but I actually really like this system - it just lacks in all transparency, so the only reason I know any of this is from reading forum posts after 4.0 came out.)
Good info.
So for a bit of min-maxing growth, you will want to spread out your pops so you do not have much more than 2K pops per planet, as long as there is available colonies?
 
Good info.
So for a bit of min-maxing growth, you will want to spread out your pops so you do not have much more than 2K pops per planet, as long as there is available colonies?
2k is a good rule of thumb, I think. The answer is actually a little more complicated.

In practice, the penalty from the capacity/population ratio is always in play.
A colony with 2k pops would have a 5/month growth rate before capacity penalties, but the way those penalties are calculated means that you can't actually get 5 from 2k - it will always be reduced to some extent. As you tend toward infinite amounts of housing on a planet, the penalty would get infinitely small, and you would get infinitely close to 5 pop/month, but you'd never actually hit the cap.

So, around 2.4 - 2.8k is where I see planets hit that 5/month base growth cap, generally. (Because, for example, if you have a base growth of 7 at 2.8k pop, and a 20% penalty from capacity, that's still 5.6 growth, which gets capped at 5.)
You will see some variance based on planet size, the number of districts you build, etc.

That said, you essentially get diminishing returns on the growth provided per pop as your colony grows to consume available housing (because the penalty gets larger), and there are also diminishing returns that additional housing have on reducing the capacity penalty (because the penalty can never be zero).

I can't find the exact equation used to calculate the penalty right now - but it's basically its like [(Capacity) / (Capacity + Population)]*[Population/400] = Monthly Growth (before the 5/month cap)
Capacity is the total housing on the planet + extra capacity from undeveloped districts.
NOTE: This isn't 'free' housing, its total housing occupied or otherwise. So a planet with 7k pops and 9k capacity (lets just say all districts are developed on this small planet, so it's 9k housing for simplicity) is going to have a base growth of 17.5 multiplied by a penalty of .5625 (a 44% reduction in growth - that's still 9.84, which gets capped at 5.

So it's pretty damn hard to overpopulate your planets to the point where they stop growing (at least, that's what I've found! I've seen others find ways to really juice their population growth, but I'm not sure how much of that is just folks using exploits.)

Meanwhile, a colony on a new world might have a capacity of, like, 7k, and a population of 800, lets say.
That colony is going to have ~10% penalty to growth because of that population to capacity ratio there. You are getting more growth per pop, absolutely, but it's just interesting to me that these capacity penalties only meaningfully apply to smaller, new worlds with plenty of rural space... not some city-covered Ecu or ring-world packed with densely populated apartments. The artificially placed 5/month game-play cap dominates any infrastructure related penalties...

So, not sure about the optimal min-max answer, but you can play around with it and find the sweet spot by feel. If you find your growth rate is a little lower than you'd expect for your population size, try building a housing building / urban district, and check for the increase. The extra housing is most impactful when colonies are very, very small.
 
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I can't find the exact equation used to calculate the penalty right now - but it's basically its like [(Capacity) / (Capacity + Population)]*[Population/400] = Monthly Growth (before the 5/month cap)
I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be:

growth = 1/400 * pops * (1-pops/capacity)

So if you're at 2000 pops and the planet has a capacity of 10000, you'd be at 1/400*2000*(1-0.2) = 4.0 per month. Basically the growth is reduced by a factor equal to the percentage of the capacity that's already used up — in this example, 20%.

I haven't checked this to see if it matches what's in the game, so I could be wrong. But this is the actual logistic growth formula. (Or at least a version of it.)
 
Pop Growth: I think this isn't a very friendly system for new players, because they probably don't understand that they need to force-resettle pops when establishing new planets. I suspect this is a top reason why we see incredibly weak players who can't scale their empires.

Worker Jobs: It's just that unity and especially research are the main measure of progressing in the game, and every other resource are mostly only necessary for upkeep. It's very easy to end up with too much of a basic resource and it's completely worthless because you can't even sell it to buy research/unity.

Job Output Transparency: Yeah, I haven't been able to find basic information like what a job does per 100 pops working it.
 
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Civilians seem to take over Elite & Specialist Jobs, because things RUFFLE AROUND A LOT. And because of this you get unemployment & then the unemployed move abroad. Civilians do too probably, but they NEVER seem to go to WorkForce Jobs. I'm trying to get mining or energy districts going & NOBODY MOVES, no matter how much I negativise my other other planet's attraction in comparison to that 1 or 2 I'm looking to focus on.
The whole thematic concept is supposed to be that you put colonisation efforts forward, but not just some COLONY SHIP sitting there for 40 years - you actively build infrastructure & provide workplaces for what needs to be done/achieved there. But alongside the thematic idea, when you've gone to a new & pristine place & have all of your amenities taken care of (which is a game mechnic) - you're probably going to start pumping out a lot of offspring!
I really wish amenities were the focus here & the more of that you have going on the better your pop growth is - PERIOD. That way you have to take care to plan it out going forwards more! I'm using Cybernetic Creed at the Moment & the capital gets a piddly 2.7-2.8 pops per month with EASILY 12k amenities. Instead of double amentities used being avilable giving you 20% happines, maybe make it so that you have Amenities used by population translating into 1x Extra Amenities Used Being Available gives you 10% happiness, 2x gives you 15% happiness & 2.5x gives you guarenteed 1 extra pop with 1x per 1or 1.5 thousand population beyond that.