• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Bane5

Major
57 Badges
Sep 9, 2012
642
1.885
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
Space RTS civilization building/conquest titles often find the need to explain why so many civilizations arise within a similar time-frame and find a gimmick for spicing up exploration elements. Often the "ancient all-powerful alien race that disappeared/went extinct" is often invoked as a convenient and useful explanation. The narrative often goes time and time again that an ancient galaxy-wide spanning race/races ruled the galaxy then suddenly vanished/went extinct/transcended leaving an unoccupied niche for new races to take over. This trope is often over-used. Stellaris can set itself above the rest and take a different route with something more plausible and more exciting for gameplay.


To preface this post, I'll start with this video of Michio Kaku about the types of civilizations:

Most of us are already familiar with these classifications but one important thing to note is:

Today, Humanity is a type-0 civilization on the verge of becoming a type-1 civilization very very soon. Stellaris begins just after that fateful jump has been made--A race who hasn't annihilated themselves as a result of nuclear war, artificial ecological disasters, grey goo nanobots, super-disease, etc and managed to dodge civilization-ending asteroids/solar events. The type-0 to type-1 transition is often theorized to be a great filter in and of itself.

Indeed when we gaze at the universe today, it should be noticeable if a type-3 civilization is out there in another galaxy or if a type-2 inhabits our own galaxy, yet we see none. A type-2 civilization and above is basically immortal (outside of predation from another type-2 or type-3 civilization which is the "europa universalis" phase of the game). Given the age of the universe, the Fermi paradox says there should be civilizations of these kinds everywhere even in the small slice we've looked at so far, yet we see none. But there may be another reason outside of the great filter.

There is a theory gaining some traction that humanity might be among one of the first type-1 civilizations to soon arise ever. Not the first in all likelihood, but among the first. The Fermi Paradox assumes that intelligent life and civilizations could arise at any given point in the Universe's long history. This is incorrect. To make life, heavy elements beyond just hydrogen, helium, and lithium are needed. These elements have not always existed in large and sufficient quantities. It takes generations of stars to go supernova before sufficient quantities of these elements can be present to form life sustaining planets. Our star, a third generation star, carries heavy elements like iron that at present can only be obtained from previous stars that went super-nova. Its this third generation of stars that could first give rise to life. Our sun is one of them.

Stellaris could begin as the tale of the first among this first wave of civilizations who arise in the third generation of stars in their galaxy. We have our narrative for why so many type-1s arise at a similar time in the Stellaris galaxy (and maybe our own). Given a sufficiently large set of type-0 civilizations, some subset of these must emerge to type-1 status around the same time and be the first to do so relatively. This also provides the bedrock for the "exploration phase" talked about in Dev Diary 1. With many type-1s civs, comes many failed type-0 civs who almost made it to type-1 status but hit the big filter. Instead of exploring the ruins of a single super-duper galaxy-spanning type-2 or type-3 civilization whose tech would probably be beyond comprehension anyways, exploration should mostly focus on failed type 0 civilization who in the critical jump to type-1 failed.

Imagine a scenario where the Civilization of the Zogs stumbles upon the irradiated ruins of humanity's Earth. In 2100, the forces of NATO and the Warsaw pact (who never broke apart) waged nuclear war dooming humanity's chances of ever acquiring type-1 status. On a single large moon around the 3rd planet from the Sun, an intact rover (and a flag) was found preserved in the vacuum of space. From the lone rover, Zog scientists found complex integrated circuits much smaller and miniaturized far beyond anything current Zog technology could produce. Attempts at reverse engineering prove useful in advancing Zog computational technology.

Scenarios like the one above are much more satisfying in my opinion and better fit the theme and tone of Stellaris. It is certainly plausible that many failed type-0 civilizations could have made large advances in a particular field more so than others. Humanity may have made impressive strides in computer tech prior to type-1 status, Zogs may have mastered fusion power before going to space, etc. Its something that should and could plausibly be everywhere.

By avoiding the ancient all-powerful aliens trope and embracing a narrative of the first to emerge, Stellaris can breath new life, story, and gameplay into the space-civ genre. Above-all, by doing so, the universe of Stellaris might better reflect our own current situation--an attention to historical plausibility which Paradox does so well.
 
Last edited:
  • 52
  • 14
  • 5
Reactions:
Well they've confirmed fallen empires, which are still in the galaxy but have more technologies and don't want to expand/less aggressive.
So there might not be any "ancient all-powerful alien civ trope" that used to own the whole galaxy and died off, and you find their abandoned cities.
 
Well they've confirmed fallen empires, which are still in the galaxy but have more technologies and don't want to expand/less aggressive.
So there might not be any "ancient all-powerful alien civ trope" that used to own the whole galaxy and died off, and you find their abandoned cities.

Being a slight bit behind the first wave is not bad either (in the Stellaris universe). The introduction of warp drives/warping ensures the type-1 phase is short lived, a mere blip that involves the colonization of the solar system.

If warp drives could exist, no doubt type-1 to type-2 transitioning civs could still be in trouble if something happened to the homeworld. In a universe with warp drives, early colonies would be dependent on trade with the homeworld at first.

My main point is that the overwhelming majority of ruins should be type-0 transitioning to type-1 civs with very early type-2 being the minority--the latter being the jackpot find.
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions:
Even if earth was the very first planet to have life, humanity could easily be in 100,000th place for industrialization, much less space travel. Sufficiently complex life has been here for over 100,000,000 years and there's no systemic reason why a species as intelligent and dexterous as us couldn't have evolved 99,000,000 year ago.

The more pertinent question might be whether a civilization can survive that long. There's a pretty good chance they'd evolve pretty significantly in that kind of time frame and if they don't achieve interstellar colonization, there are tons of reasons why they might go extinct from natural causes like comet strikes, solar changes, or ice ages in addition to unnatural disasters like nuclear war or catastrophic pollution. If they do colonize, it's likely they'd branch into different species and semi-failed colonial ventures may well create child species that went backwards technologically.

Really, we don't know all that much about exoplanets and we know next to nothing about xenobiology. Just about anything regarding them seems plausible to me if it's not physics breaking. Of course, there will be plenty of physics breaking in Stellaris or the game wouldn't be broken into hours.
 
  • 5
  • 1
Reactions:
Just about anything regarding them seems plausible to me if it's not physics breaking.

It doesn't mean that we can't speculate on whats likely.

---

Here's a small tangent to what I said: Let us assume you could be born anywhere as an intelligent being. You are most likely to be born into those species which are most successful with lots of members. That seems to be a big plus for industrialized humanity as being near the front (though not definitive proof) in addition to not seeing other type 2 and type 3 civs in the sky at the same time. As time goes on, I'm certain we'd see more life arise in the universe. If you were born later in an era with more "individuals" certainly the odds of seeing type-2 and type-3 in the sky would increase as well.

Also, is it no coincidence that you of all people, were born at this moment, when the Earth's population is near peak (global population is expected to plateau at 10 to 11 billion then decline)? Prior to the last century, orders of magnitude less people lived at once. It should make sense that your odds of being born as a human come now and not before.

That said, if humanity does survive, branches off into other galactic solar systems and planets and multiplies into the trillions, why am I among these few billion that ever lived up until now out of hundreds of trillions? Its a chilling thought, but we are likely to have annihilated/depopulated ourselves in the future--a fact that seems evident by how close the world has come and could come to nuclear war or by the fragility of the environment if unsustainable practices are continued. Humanity failing the type-0 to type-1 jump.... just maybe after all...

Could be incorrect, yes, but I'm exploring likelihood.
 
Last edited:
  • 2
  • 2
Reactions:
A type-2 civilization and above is basically immortal

You say their tech would probably be beyond our comprehension yet you are sure their civilization is basically immortal - don't you think that you comprehend too much? ;)

By avoiding the ancient all-powerful aliens trope and embracing a narrative of the first to emerge, Stellaris can breath new life, story, and gameplay into the space-civ genre. Above-all, by doing so, the universe of Stellaris might better reflect our own current situation--an attention to historical plausibility which Paradox does so well.

Problem is we know from the beginning they've opted for a symmetrical start and such a start is entirely improbable for first wave civilizations unless you see how the wave could cross the civ-1 threshold at exactly the same time in a way that isn't supernatural. I can't see it possible so for me (and probably devs) fallen empires are a logical consequence. That or "ancient all-powerful" - in the latter case, if their technology is beyond our comprehension then perhaps we can't even comprehend ways of their current existence so we can't realize they are there somewhere and we could only see, with great efforts, shadows of their very distant past.

As far as reality goes million years is almost nothing for sun-like stars but, extrapolating our current speed of development (as you extrapolate our current knowledge into types of civilizations), it's so long timeframe that both unperceivable "ancient all-powerful" ones and our civilization might still be the first wave of civilizations.

If you were born later in an era with more "individuals" certainly the odds of seeing type-2 and type-3 in the sky would increase as well.

I would say that it's much more probable that our current simple extrapolations concerning types of space-faring civilizations are entirely wrong

Also, is it no coincidence that you of all people, were born at this moment, when the Earth's population is near peak (global population is expected to plateau at 10 to 11 billion then decline)? Prior to the last century, orders of magnitude less people lived at once. It should make sense that your odds of being born as a human come now and not before.

Somehow odds of me being born as Chinese are also orders of magnitude greater yet it's not the case (I am from a comparatively very small country) - you see how misleading your conclusions are?
 
  • 9
Reactions:
Personally I'd love such unique concept (well I think the most unique concept is humanity REALLY BEING TOTALLY ALONE IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE but obviously that would not work for Stellaris :D ).

I'm sick of magical ancient alien races almost as much as of magical telepathic hivemind bugs and 'we are machines who gained sentience - let's kill all organics for lulz' tropes.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
Problem is we know from the beginning they've opted for a symmetrical start and such a start is entirely improbable for first wave civilizations unless you see how the wave could cross the civ-1 threshold at exactly the same time in a way that isn't supernatural. I can't see it possible so for me (and probably devs) fallen empires are a logical consequence. That or "ancient all-powerful" - in the latter case, if their technology is beyond our comprehension then perhaps we can't even comprehend ways of their current existence so we can't realize they are there somewhere and we could only see, with great efforts, shadows of their very distant past.

As far as reality goes million years is almost nothing for sun-like stars but, extrapolating our current speed of development (as you extrapolate our current knowledge into types of civilizations), it's so long timeframe that both unperceivable "ancient all-powerful" ones and our civilization might still be the first wave of civilizations.

Yes the first "wave" is long and far reaching. But my point is, among that wave, there must be those who come first. And let's say millions of industrial type-0 civilizations exist. Isn't it likely that among millions, several type-1 civs, (let's say very conveniently 32, the Stellaris multiplayer count) would emerge around the same time . The idea that several would emerge around the same time by chance isn't far fetched if type-0 civs are abundant, which is likely given the sheer number of stars that exist. Those who are ahead of our civilization in Stellaris by a 100 or so years would be these fallen empires. Those who we beat by a 100 years will be our genetically modified/uplifted slaves.

Stellaris could put us at the very forefront of the galaxy's first life among others with no problem story-wise. Now I'm not saying that humanity is the first of the first of the first in our own galaxy, but we likely are near the front on a cosmological time scale. Stellaris just takes it one step further and says our civilization is one these lucky ones to provide the desired gameplay sandbox.

I would say that it's much more probable that our current simple extrapolations concerning types of space-faring civilizations are entirely wrong

I suppose its possible that alien civilizations might just seek to stay on their planet or transcend to virtual reality, etc; however, I think it would still be expected that some would still seek to colonize the galaxy. Look at humanity, we have no shortage of individuals who would be willing to volunteer to travel to Mars, to places beyond our planet. We're an example of that. Maybe not all aliens would share our sentiment but some must do given a sufficient amount of them.

Somehow odds of me being born as Chinese are also orders of magnitude greater yet it's not the case (I am from a comparatively very small country) - you see how misleading your conclusions are?

High odds of something happening doesn't mean it will, I admitted as much. That said, assuming humanity spreads everywhere in the future, the odds get infinitesimally small so much more than a small island country's population vs china. That humanity could likely depopulate itself is not just backed by this statistical thought experiment, but in our daily lives today where global nuclear warfare and ecological disasters are worryingly close to becoming real.

-----------------

I will also admit, the underpinning assumption to all this, is that intelligent life is abundant in the sense that millions of intelligent species can emerge throughout the galaxy. If life is exceedingly rare such that only a small handful of intelligent life can emerge, this all falls apart. Stellaris, however, in my opinion needs to adopt the former scenario anyways to make their narrative for a EU-style game with exploration to work. So I see no problems there.
 
Last edited:
  • 4
Reactions:
I don't think lack of observed aliens contradicts Fermi paradox, our galaxy is really vast after all. What gives me suspension of disbelief is the amount of salvagable tech from extinct races. We can't translate few thousand years old scripts or find out the purpose of some stone circle, but in 4x games there are apparently hundreds of xx thousands years old artifacts just waiting for you to activate them.
 
I don't think lack of observed aliens contradicts Fermi paradox, our galaxy is really vast after all.

In which case, life is just very, very rare in and of itself. That's something Stellaris would have a hard time assuming for its universe.

What gives me suspension of disbelief is the amount of salvagable tech from extinct races. We can't translate few thousand years old scripts or find out the purpose of some stone circle, but in 4x games there are apparently hundreds of xx thousands years old artifacts just waiting for you to activate them.

The best bet for finding evidence of a civilization is on Moons without atmospheres. If humanity were to go extinct today, most evidence would be gone very quickly except for stone structures like the Great Pyramids and Hoover Dam buried under layers of sediment--not easily identifiable and even less useful. What would remain intact are our lunar landers. There is no weather nor atmosphere nor surviving bacteria to erode them away. Such equipment, debris, and tools can easily remain their for many millions of years before some micro-meteorite finally bombards the exact spot.

Hence my example about Zogs and our Earth's moon. I hope Paradox takes heed. It might be a good thing if players could boost their odds of discoveries if they surveyed systems with lots of moons and planets without atmospheres. It could be a trade-off. Survey systems with atmospheric rocky planets to find habitable homes or survey barren moons to try and find dead civilizations.
 
Last edited:
  • 3
Reactions:
Here's a small tangent to what I said: Let us assume you could be born anywhere as an intelligent being. You are most likely to be born into those species which are most successful with lots of members. That seems to be a big plus for industrialized humanity as being near the front (though not definitive proof) in addition to not seeing other type 2 and type 3 civs in the sky at the same time. As time goes on, I'm certain we'd see more life arise in the universe. If you were born later in an era with more "individuals" certainly the odds of seeing type-2 and type-3 in the sky would increase as well.

Also, is it no coincidence that you of all people, were born at this moment, when the Earth's population is near peak (global population is expected to plateau at 10 to 11 billion then decline)? Prior to the last century, orders of magnitude less people lived at once. It should make sense that your odds of being born as a human come now and not before.

That said, if humanity does survive, branches off into other galactic solar systems and planets and multiplies into the trillions, why am I among these few billion that ever lived up until now out of hundreds of trillions? Its a chilling thought, but we are likely to have annihilated/depopulated ourselves in the future--a fact that seems evident by how close the world has come and could come to nuclear war or by the fragility of the environment if unsustainable practices are continued. Humanity failing the type-0 to type-1 jump.... just maybe after all...

Could be incorrect, yes, but I'm exploring likelihood.

I just don't find this argument logically sound simply because somebody has to live in the less statistically probable time period. Trying to say that our birth in this time decreases the probability of a more numerous future seems to trying to inflate our sense of self-importance.

Think about it, if someone 50 years before the Enlightenment/Scientific Rev./Industrial Rev. said that their birth decreased the chances of the coming population boom, it wouldn't make any sense.
 
  • 6
Reactions:
I'm cool with these trope as long as the ancient race doesn't have godlike technology, and isn't wiped out for "mysterious reasons" . They why I just described is overdone thats true.
 
What about an ancient race of technologically advanced super aliens? Who are wiped out for mysterious reasons? Who leave behind artifacts that other races believe are religious objects? Except the artifacts they left behind also give hints towards something sinister headed this way?

That'd be pretty unique.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
I hope both via toggle, but it would remove some of the exploration possibilities if no other space faring civilization didn't exist in the galactic history :(
 
Meh, they've mentioned before that there's many possibilities playing out about the background of your universe. Sometimes you'll be first, other times you won't.

But I'm pretty certain the trope will be there, just not every playthrough.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
You won't be the first ones out there. While I agree that it could be an interesting setting, it would also seriously reduce the amount of weird stuff you can find out there while exploring the galaxy.

I am personally not averse to ancient, powerful civilizations as long as they are given an identity beyond just being... well, old and powerful and probably extinct. I thought the Protheans of Mass Effect were handled pretty well when you found out more about them in the third game, for example.
 
  • 57
  • 3
  • 3
Reactions:
I personally think it should neither enourage nor avoid any particular trope. It should be completely open-ended and / or user-defined.

In fact I wish the 'balanced start' was mentioned in the previews should also have been optional.
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions:
I personally think the trope has been done to death. Protheans in ME3 were given much too little time even though they are a massive part of the story. It was just stupid.
 
More people wanting to bar players from having popular and classic sci-fi tropes in their classic sci-fi game? And with an argument based on plausibility/realism?

Oh joy.
 
  • 15
Reactions:
I'm somewhere in the middle on this. I have no problem with finding evidence that other starfaring civilisations existed at some point in the past, and even occasionally encountering something left behind by them. I'm not madly keen though on those civilisations being, as the OP puts it, "all-powerful".
 
  • 1
Reactions: