Strategic redeployment(some dev read perhaps...)

[unmerged(21817)]

Well Friedl it seems you dont understand what im saying.

You contradict yourself often so it is kind of hard to grasp what you are trying to convey yes.

We are talking of the Soviet rail networks capacity to move large amounts of men and equipement in a hurry so it is exactly the same topic.

No it is not, transferral of troops through a narrow hole while fighting is going on around and transfering industry many miles from the front line is a completely different situation.

If you find it impossible to pinn a group of units to stop them escaping then maybe you should play something a bit easier

Mudslinging, lovely.

Most people I've played with can probably confirm I'm rather decent. You don't seem to realise the physical impossibility of doing what you say. To successfully pin someone down as you say you need at least 3/4 of the troops you are "pinnning down"s strength. To have that much at the front line while you are at the same time making a massive offensive is just not doable for any country except the SU. You also MUST have lots of tanks in these "pin down" groups since otherwise the defenders can just immediately hit the retreat button, and since they will retreat faster than you can capture the provinces they are retreating from they can simply retreat one province and the strat redeploy out.

The small supply penalties the Axis suffer as they move deeper into the USSR is laughable and is not realistic at all.

It is actually pretty big, when at the same lines as the real German army, avarage ESE will usually be around 60% which is quite a hefty penalty.

And please let us all know how your German supply trains can run with no tracks? :rofl:

What this has to do with the topic I think you are the only person who know. But since you bring it up I should explain how things worked in WW2. German supplies were to a big part transported around the eastern front by horse and truck, big efforts were put into bigging a good railway net but success varied.

Oh and just a small by the by, using ":rofl:" to try to drive your point home, is rarely effective.

 

[unmerged(14035)]

If you find it impossible to pinn a group of units to stop them escaping then maybe you should play something a bit easier

I take it you are kidding about this? Do you honestly mean to tell me you will keep the soon-to-be encircled enemy units engaged in combat during several days? while your spearhead runs a ring around them? This would mean that you are fighting a lot at night thus giving you (=the attacker) huge losses in manpower. All you need is 1 hour without any combat (over several days) in order to strat deploy your entire army out of there.

The small supply penalties the Axis suffer as they move deeper into the USSR is laughable and is not realistic at all.

Regardless of whether this is correct or not, what does this have to do with strategic redeployment of soon-to-be surrounded troops?

And please let us all know how your German supply trains can run with no tracks? :rofl:

Again, what does this have to do with strategic redeployment of troops? The greater part of the Soviet railway system (including bridges) was captured by the Germans intact (although it did have a wider gauge than the standard European one). In HoI2 the capturing of a province reduces infrastructure temporarily, this is a good way of reflecting reflecting any damaged or destroyed railway tracks or bridges.

Let's try to stick to the main subject at hand: is it realistic or historically accurate to take large amounts (100,000+) of front-line troops and transport them all away from the front within a matter of hours? If you think so please give me an example of when this happened during WWII.

 

[unmerged(16810)]

Fridel Read up on Blitzkrieg tactics you may learn something. Does "The front line enemy troops MUST BE PINNED DOWN BY HOLDING FORCES whilst mobile forces move into the enemy rear areas..blah blah blah" sound familier?.

I put it in capitols so maybe you can grasp the concept better . :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


But thats enough fun :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

These strat move issues can be agreed on before play starts. You can put restrictions on the number of divs in the front line can use strat move. It would be interesting to see some stats from the war on the issue.

This game is a strategic level game so lets not get into silly arguments about how long it takes to load a train. One could argue how long does it take to resupply a unit up to offensive level? same thing. IRl it would take maybe weeks but in the game it happens in a click. So if we get into the habit of banning things there is a whole can of worms in that.


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[unmerged(14249)]

I played an MP game in which I was Germany and Aldo was SU. It was the 41 scenario, I think, and Aldo raised the issue of whether it was ok for him to SR out of developing pockets. I said "sure" as I don't like unproven house rules. He still lost 50+ divisions to encirclements and so I regard the need for such a house rule to be unproven.

When this topic has come up in testing, I think the proposition has been that you shouldn't be able to SR if your TC is in the red. HoI 1 had a specific limit on the number of units that could be being SRed at any one time. Any other ideas for limiting this? I reckon that you shouldn't be able to SR in or out if the infrastructure is below a certain threshold: less than 40% say. Infrastructure attacks by air might then be quite useful.

Andrew

 

[unmerged(16810)]

Sounds pretty good Col.

Maybe the percentage of the troops = to ifra level?

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[unmerged(21817)]

Fridel Read up on Blitzkrieg tactics you may learn something. Does "The front line enemy troops MUST BE PINNED DOWN BY HOLDING FORCES whilst mobile forces move into the enemy rear areas..blah blah blah" sound familier?.

Sigh, your understanding of the topic is lacking. First of all attacking in game is just that: attacking, advancing trying to take ground. Pinning troops down is not a concept that is in the game, however the closest thing would be having units in a neighbouring province ready to strike whenever any action is taken.

Now to "real world" tactics.

"Pinning" someone down normally means you just fire a massive amount of shells and bullets at their position or keep the possibility to do so. Constant firing is not necessary to keep an enemy pinned down, your presence in the vicinity with x number of machine guns and artillery pieces is enough.

German tactics dictated "schwerpunkt" i.e. overloading one single point in the enemy line and only once this was done was an overall attack including flanking made. So in other word the German use of blitz support my argument not yours, since the panzers would engage only one point in the enemy line. the other points were first attacked once the panzers were through, once the panzers are through in HOI2 you just strat redeploy out, negating the entire concept of blitzkrieg.

Listing the number of WW2 books dealing with blitzkrieg that I have "read up on" would take far too long for me to write here.

I put it in capitols so maybe you can grasp the concept better . :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


But thats enough fun :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Let me rephrase my previous statement. Using smilies to try to ridicule other persons does in most cases have the reverse effect. But by all means, continue.

 

[unmerged(21817)]

I played an MP game in which I was Germany and Aldo was SU. It was the 41 scenario, I think, and Aldo raised the issue of whether it was ok for him to SR out of developing pockets. I said "sure" as I don't like unproven house rules. He still lost 50+ divisions to encirclements and so I regard the need for such a house rule to be unproven.

When this topic has come up in testing, I think the proposition has been that you shouldn't be able to SR if your TC is in the red. HoI 1 had a specific limit on the number of units that could be being SRed at any one time. Any other ideas for limiting this? I reckon that you shouldn't be able to SR in or out if the infrastructure is below a certain threshold: less than 40% say. Infrastructure attacks by air might then be quite useful.

Andrew

I want one limit and one limit only, no strat redeploy from provinces in base contact with enemy troops. It is simple it is historical.

It just wasn't done, you didn't pick up your things and leave, completely unoppsed by the enemy.

The problem with no strat redeploying in the red is that it gives the SU more or less free use of strat redeploy all the time while the Germans are royally fucked over.

 

[Inbrainsane]

unrealistic, unhistorical and lame...

yeah thx rodolf for your opinion, but i think i know it already =)

I played an MP game in which I was Germany and Aldo was SU. It was the 41 scenario, I think, and Aldo raised the issue of whether it was ok for him to SR out of developing pockets. I said "sure" as I don't like unproven house rules. He still lost 50+ divisions to encirclements and so I regard the need for such a house rule to be unproven.

When this topic has come up in testing, I think the proposition has been that you shouldn't be able to SR if your TC is in the red. HoI 1 had a specific limit on the number of units that could be being SRed at any one time. Any other ideas for limiting this? I reckon that you shouldn't be able to SR in or out if the infrastructure is below a certain threshold: less than 40% say. Infrastructure attacks by air might then be quite useful.

Andrew

Yes, and thx for your opinion. I thought about it like: "Its a game, everything that is possible is allowed." But i think i changed my mind. Your rules sound quite reasonable and "no strat redeploy for units in contact with the enemy" sounds quite good, too.

 

[unmerged(16810)]

Sorry friedl, I didnt realise you found smilies so intimidating.

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[unmerged(21817)]

Sorry friedl, I didnt realise you found smilies so intimidating.

Merely pointing out for your future reference that using the ":rofl:" smilie for argumentative purposes, let alone multiple times in a row, is usually only done by counter strike influenced 10-14 year olds.

 

[unmerged(13894)]

Fridel Read up on Blitzkrieg tactics you may learn something. Does "The front line enemy troops MUST BE PINNED DOWN BY HOLDING FORCES whilst mobile forces move into the enemy rear areas..blah blah blah" sound familier?.

Actually, trying to use historical tactics without putting them in context can hamper you in this game. The above is a good example. You cannot pin down anybody. You can either attack them, or not. You either stare at them over your gun barrels, or order a full-out assault. There is no pinning down.

 

[unmerged(16810)]

Well Friedl, I thought only old women get upset by things like smilies. :rofl:

Friedl, as usual your arguments are for the most part spurious.

A rule with limits on strat move would be fairer than a total ban. Maybe only 50% limit so half the force would cover the withdrawing units.
Units using strat move would disengage from the front line in the normal manner. They would then move to the rear and nearest railway line and then get on the trains. So the main case against FRSM (front line strat move ) seems to be the time taken (or not taken in this case) for the move.
As anyone ever asked how long does it take to load 100,000 men and equipement onboard ships? In the game its takes a click, just like the trains. Massive resupplies of 100,000,s of men happens in a click?. So if we start banning everything in the game thats not realistic then I fear there may not be much left
(Friedl, do you find sad faces upsetting too?)

Just 100 trains could move 10 inf divs 100,000 men. (thats 1000 per train and we are not counting seats in saloon carriges here guys) Of course moving any heavy equipement in mechanised divs would be harder but quite doable by the Soviets.

There is a good argument for limits on using strat move in front line areas but a total ban is way too harsh.

Sounds like the Axis block trying to get an edge to me



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[Durruti (A)]

If there's to be a houserule on strat red i'd propose an absolute figure based on the infra instead of a percentage, as percentages would lead to strange situations where in one case you can strat red say 40 percent of 60 divs while in another case you'd be able to strat red 40 percent of 3 divs hehe.

 

[unmerged(21817)]

Well Friedl, I thought only old women get upset by things like smilies. :rofl:

Sigh, I am only being helpful giving you friendly advice that will make you sound less like a adolescent brat in the future. But as I have previously stated, by all means continue.

Friedl, as usual your arguments are for the most part spurious.

Considering there are two possible meanings for this word the most used one being "intended to deceive" (something I am hardly doing since I believe what I am writing), the somewhat less used meaning being something to the effect of "plausible but false", I ask you to point out what in my arguments are false.

A rule with limits on strat move would be fairer than a total ban. Maybe only 50% limit so half the force would cover the withdrawing units.
Units using strat move would disengage from the front line in the normal manner. They would then move to the rear and nearest railway line and then get on the trains. So the main case against FRSM (front line strat move ) seems to be the time taken (or not taken in this case) for the move.
As anyone ever asked how long does it take to load 100,000 men and equipement onboard ships? In the game its takes a click, just like the trains. Massive resupplies of 100,000,s of men happens in a click?. So if we start banning everything in the game thats not realistic then I fear there may not be much left

So what you are saying now is that you agree it is not realistic, but you don't wan't the Soviet Union to lose a unhistorical weapon, since you like it?

Oh and the transports is a completely different topic, which I agree is totally unrealistic and should be changed (more expensive transports, no more sailing into lvl 0 ports for instant unloading, movement system of transports similar to paradrops i.e. need full org to move, special "assault" transports used for making amphibious assaults), but that is beside the point, it is not what we are discussing here.

(Friedl, do you find sad faces upsetting too?)

Let me explain it in small words to you. There is nothing wrong with using smilies, and smilies by themself are hardly upsetting or annoying to anyone. If you however try to make a poorly worded joke, then put in 3 "Rolling on Floor Laughing" smilies just to show everyone how amazingly funny you are,then it is commonly considered "abusive use of smilies" and is almost exclusively (you apparently being an exception) used by kids begging for attention and approval: "Hey mom look at me I'm funny".

Just 100 trains could move 10 inf divs 100,000 men. (thats 1000 per train and we are not counting seats in saloon carriges here guys) Of course moving any heavy equipement in mechanised divs would be harder but quite doable by the Soviets.

Cite one single instance where strategic redeployment was used to escape encirclement during WW2, name just one. Besides that you vastly overestimate the capacity of the Soviet train system at the time, there weren't exactly the possibility of assemble 100 huge trains like that in one province a few miles from the front. It simply was not done, and even if for the sake of argument this amazing feat could have been accomplished these massed train would have been bombed to pieces.

There is a good argument for limits on using strat move in front line areas but a total ban is way too harsh.

Sounds like the Axis block trying to get an edge to me

You realise that the only ban would be on units in base conctact with the enemy, if you want to strat redeploy an army, just move them back one province and then strat redeploy them, since your average move in your own provinces will be about 2 days it will simulate the 2 days it takes to remove a huge army of tens of thousands from the front and load them into train. 2 days average to load units into trains is a very short time. This also simluates something to the effect of what you apparently want:

Units using strat move would disengage from the front line in the normal manner. They would then move to the rear and nearest railway line and then get on the trains.

Strategic redeployment was used for strategically repositioning troops not as a magical means of escape, or like previously so eloquently put "an eject button", if you look to any history book handling the topic it will confirm my point.

Had it been intended or used as a way to escape it would have been named Tactical Redeployment.

 

[unmerged(14035)]

Well Friedl, I thought only old women get upset by things like smilies. :rofl:

Your arguments are persuasive, to say the least.

Just 100 trains could move 10 inf divs 100,000 men.

100 trains is hardly "just". It represents roughly half of the German train capacity (at it's peak) on the East Front. Soviet capacity was roughly equal to the Germans from 1942. For a better understanding of German railroad operations on the East Front read more at this link.

Units using strat move would disengage from the front line in the normal manner. They would then move to the rear and nearest railway line and then get on the trains.

This is exactly what we are proposing. With our rules nothing is preventing you from strat deploying any amount of divisions you want, you just have to move them away from the front first.

Sounds like the Axis block trying to get an edge to me

You seem to forget that the rules apply for both sides. How else would the Allies or Soviets be able to surround large German forces similar to the Falais gap or those at Korsun/Cherkassy?

 

[unmerged(22728)]

Cite one single instance where strategic redeployment was used to escape encirclement during WW2, name just one.

Problem is that neither Stalin or Hitler liked their men to retreat.. instead most times order them to stay and fight till last one. So not finding an historical example one cant for 100% say its impossible.

But if you think oposit to give reinforcement to 'pockets' there are examples. Like Kursk and Stalingrad.

In HoI 2 provinces are (even if they was cut down in HoI2 in russia) quite large areas, and Q raise - when are a incirclement complete then?

Often Air hampered reinforcements and redeploy, by bombing railway, rather than incirclements it's selfs.

Let the strat deploy correspond to infra somewhat, it don't have to be exact figures. That way also prevent ilogical saveruns through desert in north Africa.

 

[unmerged(43564)]

I Dont Use It, Because I Think It Is Unrealistic

I Dont Use It, Because I Think It Is Unrealistic- But Many Do

 

[DivineShadow]

I Dont Use It, Because I Think It Is Unrealistic- But Many Do

Im willing to bet you would use it if you was about to lose 80 divisions near paris in a failed german invasion.