Suggestion: Flushing out Africa

[TJW59]

Hi there, I've been a pretty big fan of EU4 for a good long while now, and I sincerely enjoy playing smaller or more obscure nations in both America and Africa. I started doing more research into African Empires, governments, and other events and upon reading up on it, and Africa severely lacks in terms of mission trees, formable nations, and a few missing countries here and there, I still love to play the game and the region, but it could genuinely be so much more. Especially with Mali and Ethiopia, they seem so bare bones compared to what they could and should be. Regardless, it would still be amazing to see a more flushed out Africa.

 

[withche.07]

I agree. Latest african patch became old. After europe and se asia, africa should be place to look back.

 

[neondt]

My knowledge of Africa is very much lacking. If you have specific ideas about what you'd like to see added to the region, I'm all ears.

 

[Grand_Strategy_Gamer]

My knowledge of Africa is very much lacking. If you have specific ideas about what you'd like to see added to the region, I'm all ears.

Perhaps Paradox can help rectify issues like Africa lacking as much detail as it should have by hiring an in-house historian/historical researcher and/or historical consultants on an as-needed basis. Is that something that Paradox does for any of their titles?

 

[Isildur9526]

Africa generally needs a Dharma or Cradle of Civilization to vastly improve the experience in the continent, with more events, missions,NIs etc. It could also be a good chance to overhaul the busted trade companies.

 

[Kyronite]

I would like a way to represent the european influence on the african continent. Right now the only thing the europeans can do is conquer the whole continent or settle on the coast. As paradox has policies regarding the direct representation of the african slave trade and they will not create a system which will represent that I propose a system like this in order to make a representation of the european extortion of the african continent for their own benefit.

This is the system I would like to propose:

1. Increase the development on the West-African continent by a lot in order to represent the fact that Africa used to be a decent developed place before the europeans came and extorted the place. European influence is the whole fact that it is a backwater right now. Per example the Malinese emperor used to be the richest man in the world and africa used to have well developed nations and systems of their own.

This development boost is also needed for the proposed system.

2. Split tropical terrain in inland tropical and coastal tropical terrain
- Coastal tropical terrain will have the former tropical terrain development, coring and building cost for every tech group
- Inland tropical terrain will have double or triple cost for european tech groups (in order to represent malaria and the result that of europeans were not really able to settle those provinces due to harsh conditions).

3. establish a protectorate/ tributary system similar to that from mandate of heaven between european and african nations.
- The protectorate relation will be between the european overlord and the african subject.
- Other european nations will not be able to declare war on the protectorate without calling in the overlord
- The African protectorate will be able to declare war on other nations
- Other nations of the African tech groups will be able to declare war on the protectorate without intervention of the protector

Rules for african nations
- the system will be a military extortionist system and will give African nations cb's against other african nations in the same technology group called Extort tribute
- This cb will give the african nation a war demand called Extort development and will be the only able cb with said war goal
- By pressing this demand the defeated nation will have a random decrease in development from their provinces which will go to the victor. this will also cause devastation to said provinces
- The lost development will go to the victor, in turn they can use part of this development to increase the development of their own provinces freely or trade it with european nations. Part of the total development will always be lost in the process.
- African nations can trade this extorted tribute for gold, military technology cost reduction or random bonuses like morale of army's, increased proffesionalism, military tradition and discipline. (this represents the portugese training and selling arms to various african nations for slaves.)

European Nations
- European nations who will extort this development will be able to pump it in a colonial region, this will mean an increased settler chance bonus in said colonial region or increased development in chosen region. With a chance of the developed region having african culture and religion. The use of this will also make sure that the overlord is able to colonise inland tropical provinces with african.
- The up side is a faster increase of your colonial nation, increase of development in the region and the ability to colonise inland tropical provinces
- The down side is an increased liberty desire in said colonial nation (on the long term) and a higher chances of rebellions to fire. This will also result in the colonial region developing their own culture which is not part of the overlords culture group (per example brazilian for portugese instead of normal portugese settlement)

Further consequences on the african subcontinent
- Europeans will start demanding tribute from their protectorates, firstly helping them by giving them various bonuses in order to extort development points
- If the protectorate does not have enough point to give to the overlord, the lord can send a demand to give local development points from their own provinces which will cause the protectorate to lose development at random in provines in their nation
- If the protectorate refuses the overlord will declare war in order to extract the demanded development.
- If the african nation wins the relation is terminated and the overlord will lose a lot of prestige, all their protectorates + their colonial nations which have extorted development from africa will have an increase in libirty desire according to the amount of points pumped in that region
- If the european nation wins the african nations will need to give twice as much extracted development as needed and this will cause a lot of devastation.

This will create a system where african nations are at first forced to coorperate with european nations in order to compete with their surroundings. A smart player on the african continent should be able to win from their colonial overlord via some form and be able to become top dog in their region.

This system wil put on emphasis on the european brutality without directly referencing slavery. It will also create the circumstances for a skilled african nation to win from the europeans via a sort of endgame battle and destabilize said nation by making them the laughing stock of the european world. What european nation will lose a war from an uncivilised african nation in that time period.

Also a big single african nation will never end up as tribute from the europeans which will cause a butterfly effect of the europeans not being able to colonise as fast as they did because they didn't have the manpower to colonise the enitire south.

I think an inclusion of said system will make some interesting gameplay in the central and west african regions and provide an enormous challenge for a player in that region. Right now africa will mostly be conquered in full by european nations, which was most certainly not the case during that time period.

I hope my post helps giving some ideas!

 

[TheDungen]

Perhaps Paradox can help rectify issues like Africa lacking as much detail as it should have by hiring an in-house historian/historical researcher and/or historical consultants on an as-needed basis. Is that something that Paradox does for any of their titles?

No they don't closest thing is Trintagula but I'm fairly certain he doesn't call himself a historian.

 

[delta180]

I would like a way to represent the european influence on the african continent. Right now the only thing the europeans can do is conquer the whole continent or settle on the coast. As paradox has policies regarding the direct representation of the african slave trade and they will not create a system which will represent that I propose a system like this in order to make a representation of the european extortion of the african continent for their own benefit.

This is the system I would like to propose:

1. Increase the development on the West-African continent by a lot in order to represent the fact that Africa used to be a decent developed place before the europeans came and extorted the place. European influence is the whole fact that it is a backwater right now. Per example the Malinese emperor used to be the richest man in the world and africa used to have well developed nations and systems of their own.

This development boost is also needed for the proposed system.

2. Split tropical terrain in inland tropical and coastal tropical terrain
- Coastal tropical terrain will have the former tropical terrain development, coring and building cost for every tech group
- Inland tropical terrain will have double or triple cost for european tech groups (in order to represent malaria and the result that of europeans were not really able to settle those provinces due to harsh conditions).

3. establish a protectorate/ tributary system similar to that from mandate of heaven between european and african nations.
- The protectorate relation will be between the european overlord and the african subject.
- Other european nations will not be able to declare war on the protectorate without calling in the overlord
- The African protectorate will be able to declare war on other nations
- Other nations of the African tech groups will be able to declare war on the protectorate without intervention of the protector

Rules for african nations
- the system will be a military extortionist system and will give African nations cb's against other african nations in the same technology group called Extort tribute
- This cb will give the african nation a war demand called Extort development and will be the only able cb with said war goal
- By pressing this demand the defeated nation will have a random decrease in development from their provinces which will go to the victor. this will also cause devastation to said provinces
- The lost development will go to the victor, in turn they can use part of this development to increase the development of their own provinces freely or trade it with european nations. Part of the total development will always be lost in the process.
- African nations can trade this extorted tribute for gold, military technology cost reduction or random bonuses like morale of army's, increased proffesionalism, military tradition and discipline. (this represents the portugese training and selling arms to various african nations for slaves.)

European Nations
- European nations who will extort this development will be able to pump it in a colonial region, this will mean an increased settler chance bonus in said colonial region or increased development in chosen region. With a chance of the developed region having african culture and religion. The use of this will also make sure that the overlord is able to colonise inland tropical provinces with african.
- The up side is a faster increase of your colonial nation, increase of development in the region and the ability to colonise inland tropical provinces
- The down side is an increased liberty desire in said colonial nation (on the long term) and a higher chances of rebellions to fire. This will also result in the colonial region developing their own culture which is not part of the overlords culture group (per example brazilian for portugese instead of normal portugese settlement)

Further consequences on the african subcontinent
- Europeans will start demanding tribute from their protectorates, firstly helping them by giving them various bonuses in order to extort development points
- If the protectorate does not have enough point to give to the overlord, the lord can send a demand to give local development points from their own provinces which will cause the protectorate to lose development at random in provines in their nation
- If the protectorate refuses the overlord will declare war in order to extract the demanded development.
- If the african nation wins the relation is terminated and the overlord will lose a lot of prestige, all their protectorates + their colonial nations which have extorted development from africa will have an increase in libirty desire according to the amount of points pumped in that region
- If the european nation wins the african nations will need to give twice as much extracted development as needed and this will cause a lot of devastation.

This will create a system where african nations are at first forced to coorperate with european nations in order to compete with their surroundings. A smart player on the african continent should be able to win from their colonial overlord via some form and be able to become top dog in their region.

This system wil put on emphasis on the european brutality without directly referencing slavery. It will also create the circumstances for a skilled african nation to win from the europeans via a sort of endgame battle and destabilize said nation by making them the laughing stock of the european world. What european nation will lose a war from an uncivilised african nation in that time period.

Also a big single african nation will never end up as tribute from the europeans which will cause a butterfly effect of the europeans not being able to colonise as fast as they did because they didn't have the manpower to colonise the enitire south.

I think an inclusion of said system will make some interesting gameplay in the central and west african regions and provide an enormous challenge for a player in that region. Right now africa will mostly be conquered in full by european nations, which was most certainly not the case during that time period.

I hope my post helps giving some ideas!

I like these ideas a lot, only problem I have is with the African CB and the European interaction
the African CB is just a worst version of Conquest, where instead of taking land you just take development, at the moment no african power cannot be annexed in one, or with increased development maybe 2 wars

the European protectorate system does not seem as worth while as just conquering all those lovely gold provinces and new highly developed provinces in Africa, as well as that I don't want to have to micromanage extorting development from Africa as a European nation, I get the feeling it would just be something you would have to remember to click every ten years, African nations should know what they are getting into and be forced to accept automatic exploitation when they are a protectorate, then have to fight an independence war if they don't like it

also maybe you should move away from a development based system, a protectorate could be made into a subject type that grants 50% of its production and gold income in return for cheaper technology all other flavor could be handled by subject interactions such as "relocation to the colonies", where the overlord pays 20% of its yearly income to the subject in return for cheaper development in all of its colonial nations for a year as getting and removing random development sounds highly exploitable

 

[AirikrStrife]

My knowledge of Africa is very much lacking. If you have specific ideas about what you'd like to see added to the region, I'm all ears.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/empires-of-the-sudan.1042563/
new tags and cultures in western africa

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-of-african-wastelands.1135024/#post-24934401
same southern africa + government

@ajsieg has an excellent thread on horn of africa

 

[ajsieg]

@ajsieg has an excellent thread on horn of africa

Threads* @AirikrStrife

I'll actually put something here and say that people should post more stuff on what could be done in Africa. I'm certainly not gonna cover all of Africa and I am just one person .

 

[AirikrStrife]

Threads* @AirikrStrife

I'll actually put something here and say that people should post more stuff on what could be done in Africa. I'm certainly not gonna cover all of Africa and I am just one person .

Oh! I missed that! I just skimmed the new thread, gonna make a comment once I have the time needed to reply fully take in a longer post.

I agree more africa threads would be nice, though there are quite a few threads on the forum already, except ours @JKiller96 have done several about the areas on both sides of sahara. there really is a lot of material to draw from in the forum already.

 

[BuchiTaton]

Definitely. Africa need some more detail in the current covered regions, and also make usefull (colonizable) parts of Southern Africa "wastelands".
As I see the region have these problems:
1- Is relatively easy for AI's african nations to build a big and stable empire.
2- Usually AI's colonial powers achieve an anachronic "Scramble for Africa".
3- The representation of "Triangular Trade" is realy shallow.
4- Some parts of Africa are completely inaccesible. We can argue that is the case to represent the difficulty for european colonization at that time, but at the same time we have parts of North America that have similar problems already on game, while others parts of Africa and the Amazonas are complety inaccessible. And of course, those regions where not as inaccessible for natives.
5- Lack of playable nations, mainly in southern Africa. Again the standard for North American and Africa are not the same, since in EU4 we can play from start at 1444 with native NA nations that in reality were the result of the interaction of many other previous native nations and even european influences from latter centuries. So I dont see real problem in have some representation of "cultural tags" for the main groups of southern african native nations.

Split tropical terrain in inland tropical and coastal tropical terrain
- Coastal tropical terrain will have the former tropical terrain development, coring and building cost for every tech group
- Inland tropical terrain will have double or triple cost for european tech groups (in order to represent malaria and the result that of europeans were not really able to settle those provinces due to harsh conditions).

Something like this or a proper DISEASE mechanic would help a lot to represent in a more strategic and interesting way, the interaction of europeans with american and african natives. Provinces with a modifier that make them accessible for migratory natives but tough for other more "civilized" armies (either colonial europeans or organized andine or sahelian imperial armies) at the same time that less desirable, would gives "primitive" tags much more flavor and space to survive and fight back (with out magically become top tech powers just by european contact, like they can now).

 

[withche.07]

I have written about more tags for also north africa here in my thread. I don't know much about it sadly, but there are some missing tags here listed from euratlas. I wish some other people would help for better info.

What more to add in Maghreb:

2. Figuig: Oasis of Figuig, that could broke free after Morocco's dynastty lost its control of region. (Releasable in 1444? or after 1500s)
3. Oran: Emirate of Oran which was dependent to Tlemcen. (releasable after 1500s)
As you can see
1509 – City occupied by Spanish forces.
1556 – Siege of Oran (1556) by Ottoman forces.
1563 – Sieges of Oran and Mers El Kébir by Ottoman forces.
It was somewhat autonomous city cause of outer interventions. Could be nice releasable.
4. Zenatas: These were Berber tribes of Chaoui people. Could be added. (releasable in 1444) (These might be vassal of Tunis in 1444 or broke free? Needs to be researched)
5. Zab: The Zab Emirate was a short lived emirate around 1400 in the highlands and desert fringes of what is today eastern Algeria. (releasable in 1444)
6. Berber Lordship of the Ouarsenis: It is hard for me to find information about this one sadly, maybe could be found in french (releasable?)
7. Béjaïa (or Bougie): Just another pirate lordship within Barbary coast: (possibly releasable by event after 1555?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Béjaïa
After a Spanish occupation (1510–55), the city was taken by the Ottoman Turks in the Capture of Bougie in 1555. For nearly three centuries, Béjaïa was a stronghold of the Barbary pirates (see Barbary States). The city consisted of Arabic-speaking Moors, Moriscos and Jews increased by Jewish refugees from Spain, with the Berber peoples not in the city but occupying the surrounding villages and travelling to the city occasionally for the market days.
8. Bizerte (or Bizerta): This was also pirate stronghold under Tunisia that could be added: (possibly releasable as vassal by event around later 1500s?)
The town originated as a Phoenician outpost and was known through Carthaginian and Roman times as Hippo Diarrhytus or Hippo Zarytus. Captured in 661 CE by Muʿāwiyah ibn Ḥudayj, it was given the name Bizerte. It was occupied by the Spanish from 1535 to 1572 but later became a privateering stronghold.
9. Kingdom of Kuku (Koukou)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Kuku
The Kingdom of Kuku (Kingdom of Koukou) was a medieval Berber kingdom that ruled over much of greater Kabylia. It was established around 1515. The polity's realm stretched from the Atlas Mountains to the southern plains of Algiers. Its capital was located at Kuku, which sat on a promontory with around 15,000 inhabitants. The kingdom had forces consisting of 5,000 musqueteers and 1,500 cavalrymen. Kuku was one of two major Kabyle kingdoms, the other being the Kingdom of Ait Abbas.
10. Sijilmasa
Kingdom of Sjiilmasa was dependent to Morocco around 1600s. (Releasable after 1600s)

All countries I have added are also on euratlas maps:
https://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1500/1500_Southwest.html
https://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1400/1400_Southwest.html

There were more Berber tribes which I cannot find much information that could be releasable I am listing:
Beni Snassen
Tha'alibas
Beni Amour
Oulaid Nail
Oulaid Sidi Sheikh
Dawawidas
Hananeshas
Marabout Brotherhood of the Shabbiyas
Ghadamès
Nemenchas

And fix:
Kingdom of Ait Abbas: This is added as Kabylia in game, I think name should be changed and flag should be added:
The kingdom of the Ait Abbas or sultanate of the Beni Abbas, is a former berber state of North Africa, then a fief and a principality, controlling Lesser Kabylie and its surroundings from the sixteenth century to the nineteenth century. It is referred to in the Spanish historiography as "reino de Labes"; sometimes more commonly referred to by its ruling family, the Mokrani, in Berber At Muqran, Ouled Moqrane. Its capital was the Kalâa of Ait Abbas, an impregnable citadel in the Biban mountain range.

This is a map and list created by reddit user using euroatlas, could be useful for province/tag creating
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MPseyPmMGwahS_Bf2ldkTf8piAIPDsju0SXmW7yXxLk/edit#gid=0

Morocco Sultanate Independent
Tetouan State Moroccan Substate
Chefchaouen State Moroccan Substate
Taza State Moroccan Substate
Debdou Viceroyalty Moroccan Substate
Meggeo Tribe Moroccan Substate
Hintata State Moroccan Substate
Tadla State Moroccan Substate
Jebel Lekhder State Moroccan Substate
Beni Snassen Tribe Independent
Tlemcen Sultanate Independent
Oran Emirate Tlemceni Substate
Tha'aliba Tribe Independent
Algiers Emirate Independent
Kuko Sultanate Independent
Labbes Sultanate Independent
Bougie Lordship Independent
Zenatas Tribe Independent
Hafsids Caliphate Independent
Bizerte Lordship Hafsid Substate
Tripoli Emirate Independent
Beni Sulaym Tribe Independent

@noldorin @MoorishBro