Suggestion: Remove Suggestions Forum and many others

[Edmon]

These forums exist only to punish those who follow the rules, while people who post their suggestions, AAR's, lets plays, guides, etc in the General Forum get their stuff seen, responded to and viewed. Especially by developers.

Remove them and just have one forum.

 

[Grand Historian]

I disagree wholeheartedly. Not posting minor suggestions is exactly wasting Devs time. All the time they need to spend writing NIs, events etc. could be replaced with stuff from the suggestion forum. Time and time again, the DEvs have said that the most time-consuming part of making those things is the flavour text, as that requires research. That is a job that any forumite can do, but few bother, because "you can just mod it".

And then you get a brilliant mod with tons of flavour that 100 people play and dies when the next patch rolls around.

You're quite right. We differ only as to where such suggestions belong. I believe they do better in main subforum, which is read and responded by more users, so all that flavor and similar stuff is discussed more thoroughly, and the following work for developers is much easier. While suggestions subforum fits better for more thorough and far-reaching issues to be discussed among the minority who are seriously interested in such things. I'm well aware that my low enthusiasm for your sort of suggestions and discussions is a minority feature, all I suggest is that they are better in main subforum.

For future reference, there's actually a NI Suggestion Compilation thread that has archived most of the NIs and Trin Tragula has frequently commented in, so minor suggestions are being paid attention to in the subforum.

 

[Indigo Blue]

Yes, but none of that will ever be done based on player suggestions. It's all exclusively dev department. My point is not that suggestions cannot be made, just that the stuff left to improve will never see any player suggestions being implemented.

Try it - make some economic/social/civil infrastructure suggestions, like the hundreds made so far. You will not ever get a reaction.

I disagree somewhat - I'm sure mechanical stuff does get added from player suggestion. Notably, Arumba's fixes etc is a solid example. However, a single example from a particularly well watched player is significantly harder to ignore then mounds of text that can pile up a forum.

I think, mechanics have been added that address larger strategic issues and the bigger picture of EUiv. A prime example would be the addressing of distant over seas by bringing in the new state system. As an observer watching the game you could infer that the disparity in game play between the Ottomans, prior to the state system, and most other countries that the state system was a comprehensive method to bring all players onto the same level that added a depth to governance the economic system. Notably, it is still relatively shallow - the limit of interaction being a click of a few buttons. But, its a start and the programming to develop it was definitely non-trivial requiring distance formulas and an entire new layer of coding tags to describe everything.

I haven't really seen strong suggestions for new mechanics - i've only really been paying attention to the culture mechanic though as there is a huge depth of material to read.

 

[Trin Tragula]

There are some things in Me_'s post that I think should be commented on. I'll restrict comments to those things I can directly pick and implement from here. I don't design mechanics but I know those that do come here for inspiration as well.

Suggesting events, quests and decisions is mostly pointless too, as they never get added, although some suggestions resulted in Paradox adding their own events, etc. (e.g. for Tuscany or Orissa).

A matter of perspective I guess. There's no guarantee that a suggestions gets adopted wholesale but it can still serve to take the development in a certain direction. If I see a suggestions such as with Orissa (Tuscany was done during MN when I was away on parental leave though I did tip of my replacement about the posts about it in this forum) I'm not going to stick to the suggestion word by word but I may still be adding stuff I wouldn't have otherwise.
Those kind of suggestions are certainly worth my time but if you don't feel they're worth yours without a very faithful implementation then I guess you could avoid making them. You have some good contributions under your belt though.

Suggesting nations/provinces is mostly pointless as the map is pretty much full, with only Regensburg being Bavarian instead of a free city and Epirus being Ottoman instead of independent.

I disagree about this but I'm a map nerd and don't get the final call on when we add stuff to the map or not That's likely a good thing but I don't think future map improvements are entirely ruled out. I certainly have an area or two I'd like to do some changes to still. If I am told to expand the map again you can be sure I'll bring up any good suggestions I've seen, as I have in the past.

Suggesting formable nations is pretty much done as there are not many left to imagine. Yuan, maybe.

I imagine there are still a few that could be added, I tend to prioritize checking such threads out. Reforming ancient entity x is not something that speaks to me as I personally feel the game generally needs to look forward more than backwards right now (not direct at Yuan, it's just a general point that I feel should be made about formables).

Suggesting history files changes is pointless, as history files are no longer supported.

Later start dates are not balanced for when adding new features but if we're not fixing history bugs for later dates then nobody told me as I'm the one doing those fixes. Not sure where exactly this oft repeated statement originated but history files do get updated, both for bugs and when new features are added. They're just not tested the way the 1444 date is. Fixing bugs in later start dates is not a very high priority but it's something that does get fixed. There's a general tendency for players not to report history file problems just as there is a general tendency to not report event oddities which sometimes makes older bugs linger for a long while unless we happen upon them ourselves. This is understandable as fixes can take a while and probably also partly due to a legacy of odd effects in events and history going back to older games (and as the oddities *are* often pretty old most people are likely used to them).

Suggesting balance changes is pointless, as Paradox makes balance decisions by themselves.

What, how and when to implement as well as decisions on balance related to suggestions will always be up to those actually responsible for the game. That does not make suggestions, discussions or critique pointless. I guess this sums my point up pretty well. You may feel this means discussion isn't worthwhile but that's what these forums are for.
As for where the line goes between suggestions and general discussion, that's sometimes clear and sometimes a bit hard to tell. Asking for input or discussing something in general before coming here to make a suggestion can be fine IMO but this is the best place to have your suggestions actually read by us (I do tend to read general as well during my commute but I don't think one should count on all devs doing so all the time ).

 

[Me_]

I disagree somewhat - I'm sure mechanical stuff does get added from player suggestion. Notably, Arumba's fixes etc is a solid example. However, a single example from a particularly well watched player is significantly harder to ignore then mounds of text that can pile up a forum.

The thing about Arumba's suggesstions is that they are from youtube vidieos, not the suggestion forum.

A matter of perspective I guess. There's no guarantee that a suggestions gets adopted wholesale but it can still serve to take the development in a certain direction. If I see a suggestions such as with Orissa (Tuscany was done during MN when I was away on parental leave though I did tip of my replacement about the posts about it in this forum) I'm not going to stick to the suggestion word by word but I may still be adding stuff I wouldn't have otherwise.
Those kind of suggestions are certainly worth my time but if you don't feel they're worth yours without a very faithful implementation then I guess you could avoid making them. You have some good contributions under your belt though.

I do believe in the value of this forum, I'm just somewhat disheartened by the way it works, but I certainly see its usefulness, which is why I keep posting suggestions (in fact, I already plan on making three more: peasant estate for Scandinavia, flavour events to give Zaporozhe a better chance to appear and a "social developments" mechanic).

The thing is - if you (the Devs) don't acknowledge in any way that flavour is inspired by the suggestion forum, there is no way to know that it works. Orissa is only known, because you personally answered to the thread and there was a line of code that accidently slipped into a patch that revealed that one of Tuscan suggestions was tested, but aside from that: none of us foirumites has any way of knowing if what we suggest has any value if you do not tell us.

Let's make one thing clear though: I'm not saying that you should make promises that may or may not be implemented, but that if you do add something based on player suggestions then making sure that we know about the fact that player contribution played a part would be a nice way of encouraging the forum.

You may feel this means discussion isn't worthwhile but that's what these forums are for.

I do not feel that but I do believe that balance has no chance in the suggestion forum. It can only survive in the main forum, and even there it's usually just a mess of opinions, rather than facts, which is why it is actually better if balance is mostly not decided by players.

 

[Orange1861]

Well, that is fair enough. I know that the suggestions forum at least has gotten some attention recently, but what about (for example) the guides forum? When was the last time anyone even went in there?

There is a guides forum?

 

[Vaximillian]

There is a guides forum?

Shocking, I know.

 

[Orange1861]

Shocking, I know.

Sarcasm or serious?

 

[Vaximillian]

Sarcasm or serious?

Both.

 

[Grand Historian]

Now that I think about it too, I believe Slovak and its corresponding tag were added in because of another suggestion thread as well.

 

[Maq]

Now that I think about it too, I believe Slovak and its corresponding tag were added in because of another suggestion thread as well.

Earrings... and very cheap and ugly ones.

 

[Grand Historian]

Earrings... and very cheap and ugly ones.

I think you might have the wrong thread?

 

[Maq]

I think you might have the wrong thread?

No. What I mean is this: Some people, perhaps vast majority of people, insanely love culture stuff. Which is quite natural nowadays, but mostly ahistorical for EUIV timeframe. Being a Czech, I know a bit about Slovak history, and I'm pretty sure that Slovaks were not aware of their national existence before 1821. Not even the Hungarians could suspect that Slovak nationalism could ever appear and become troublesome.
So, some forumites transferred their nationalist feelings and perceptions into pre-nationalist period, and Paradox willingly responded with creating Slovak nationality and Slovak tag.
In my opinion - and I'm fully aware that many think differently - such addition not only brings no benefits, but even alienates this game from its historical patterns into the realm of fantasy.
I hope you can recall what I called earrings in some other discussion of ours, so I commented that these earrings are a kitch. It's not that far from creating a 'Martian' culture if people ask for that. In the name of adding 'flavor', why not?

 

[Grand Historian]

So, some forumites transferred their nationalist feelings and perceptions into pre-nationalist period,

I really wish this misconception would die already. The idea that nationalism was somehow 'invented' during EU4's period, is silly (albeit understandable - it was popularized during this period, with the Dutch often serving as an icon). If the idea of Nationalism is defined the emergence of a unified cultural identity - one that often viewed itself as superior to those around it - we can probably attribute it to the ancient Egyptians, possibly the Greeks and later and most definitely to the Chinese. If the benchmark of nationalism is popular revolts to create a separate nation based on cultural identity, then we quite possibly owe the Jews for creating nationalism with the Bar Kokhba Revolt (132 AD). If it was for a successful creation of a nation, then we might as well hand that medal to the Bulgarians with the Uprising of Asen and Peter (1185 AD). Of course, these are only two examples off the top of my head, and I'm certain I could find plenty more and earlier ones if I did a more thorough examination.

and Paradox willingly responded with creating Slovak nationality and Slovak tag.
In my opinion - and I'm fully aware that many think differently - such addition not only brings no benefits, but even alienates this game from its historical patterns into the realm of fantasy.

It's not as if the Slovak culture didn't exist during the period, either (granted, to what extent had been the topic of quite a bit of debate). Existing and having a concept of statehood are two different things, and I believe Trin Tragula has said in the past that they won't add in new cultures without a corresponding tag - hence Nitra and giving the Scottish Highlands their own tag as well. Likewise, Hungarian culture was too large and too lonely - splitting it up was beneficial for gameplay, and can better reflect the historical situation of the area. Saying it's fantasy is both silly and ignores the fact that EU4 is already quite steeped in fantasy: one of the main draws of the game is that you can recreate history your way, and more often than not in extremely gamey and unrealistic ways.

I hope you can recall what I called earrings in some other discussion of ours,

Hence why I asked.

so I commented that these earrings are a kitch. It's not that far from creating a 'Martian' culture if people ask for that. In the name of adding 'flavor', why not?

I doubt Paradox will be adding in a Martian culture anytime soon. And, kitchy or not, it still existed - me asking for an American culture (under the scenario it does not already exist) might come across as being kitchy as I'm American, but it doesn't change the fact that a distinctive American culture emerged during this period due to geographical influences, and thus would reasonably do so in EU4 as well.

 

[Maq]

I really wish this misconception would die already. The idea that nationalism was somehow 'invented' during EU4's period, is silly (albeit understandable - it was popularized during this period, with the Dutch often serving as an icon). If the idea of Nationalism is defined the emergence of a unified cultural identity - one that often viewed itself as superior to those around it - we can probably attribute it to the ancient Egyptians, possibly the Greeks and later and most definitely to the Chinese. If the benchmark of nationalism is popular revolts to create a separate nation based on cultural identity, then we quite possibly owe the Jews for creating nationalism with the Bar Kokhba Revolt (132 AD). If it was for a successful creation of a nation, then we might as well hand that medal to the Bulgarians with the Uprising of Asen and Peter (1185 AD). Of course, these are only two examples off the top of my head, and I'm certain I could find plenty more and earlier ones if I did a more thorough examination.



It's not as if the Slovak culture didn't exist during the period, either (granted, to what extent had been the topic of quite a bit of debate). Existing and having a concept of statehood are two different things, and I believe Trin Tragula has said in the past that they won't add in new cultures without a corresponding tag - hence Nitra and giving the Scottish Highlands their own tag as well. Likewise, Hungarian culture was too large and too lonely - splitting it up was beneficial for gameplay, and can better reflect the historical situation of the area. Saying it's fantasy is both silly and ignores the fact that EU4 is already quite steeped in fantasy: one of the main draws of the game is that you can recreate history your way, and more often than not in extremely gamey and unrealistic ways.



Hence why I asked.



I doubt Paradox will be adding in a Martian culture anytime soon. And, kitchy or not, it still existed - me asking for an American culture (under the scenario it does not already exist) might come across as being kitchy as I'm American, but it doesn't change the fact that a distinctive American culture emerged during this period due to geographical influences, and thus would reasonably do so in EU4 as well.

Well, yes and no. Nationalism is truly a broad concept, so that you can present medieval Chinese as an example. I can confirm from my own memory that such sentiments existed par example in late (West) Roman Empire towards Barbarians. As such, nationalism and chauvinism existed always. That's true.
Statehood based on nationality is quite different thing, on the other hand. The idea that the ruler/government should derive his/its legitimacy from adherence to nationality, or even that the nation is 'the owner' of the state is connected to social progress, namely widespread literacy and means of communication. With the exception of a dozen or so intellectuals who discussed Slovak national identity and future, and who struggled to create Slovak language which the real Slovaks could understand (!), most Slovaks were illiterate, loyal to the King, who happened to be called 'Hungarian' king, but who since extinction of Arpad dynasty could rarely claim Hungarian blood in his veins. If it ever mattered, but it did not. If Slovakia happened to be integrated with linguistically closer Poland or Bohemia, they'd probably consider it unlawful, and Slavic proximity would not change it a bit. No rebellious magnate striving for separation from Hungary would rise a nationalist argument to gain support, as it would be futile (just like Transylvanian dukes never relied nor even mentioned any 'nationality', be it Hungarian, Romanian, Ruthenian, or whatever). No nationalism-driven rebellion could occur as neither Slavs, nor Magyars saw different vernacular to be a problem. I daresay that both of them considered themselves natives, in contrast to Jews and Germans, with distinctly different social demeanor, or to followers of non-catholic Christian denominations - again, no matter what vernacular they spoke.
For such reasons, implementing Slovak nationality (and Slovak tag) as a politically relevant factor is a FANTASY.
But don't get me wrong. I do not want to generalize. The emergence and existence of national identity as a politically relevant factor happened in various regions in different times, and were influenced by different circumstances. But I think this is not the time and place to get involved in a general discussion on nationalism. I just stand for the opinion that 'Slovak state(hood)' in 1821 or earlier is ahistorical.
---
The fact that the game is already quite steeped in fantasy is not a good argument. You either agree, and then you should avoid any historical arguments - which is precisely what you routinely do (and you're good at that, indeed). Or you disagree and wish the game follow historical plausibility, and then you should not dismiss arguments against one particular 'fantastic' feature with the counter-argument that they are many. Yes, they are. Me, I hate them all. Slovak nation and Slovak state is just one of many.

 

[Edmon]

For future reference, there's actually a NI Suggestion Compilation thread that has archived most of the NIs and Trin Tragula has frequently commented in, so minor suggestions are being paid attention to in the subforum.

And that's why Grand Historian always puts his suggestions in the general forum:

like this one:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ers-advisors-and-dynasties-a-petition.924124/

Or this one:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/please-expand-rulers-leaders-advisors-and-dynasties-a-petition.924124/

Or this one:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rus-and-a-suggestion-on-greek-culture.915430/

Or this one:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...e-another-look-at-cavalry-and-cannons.886780/

Etc, etc.

Because obviously even the minor suggestions do get paid attention to in the suggestions forum. That's why it's important that you post in the suggestions forum like the good forum user you are while he posts in the general forum and gets much more discussion and attention for his ideas.

Edit: There were tons more in general, but they eventually got moved to suggestions where they could die, some are therefore remade after a few months in general.

 

[Grand Historian]

And that's why Grand Historian always puts his suggestions in the general forum:

like this one:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ers-advisors-and-dynasties-a-petition.924124/

Or this one:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/please-expand-rulers-leaders-advisors-and-dynasties-a-petition.924124/

Or this one:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rus-and-a-suggestion-on-greek-culture.915430/

Or this one:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...e-another-look-at-cavalry-and-cannons.886780/

Etc, etc.

Because obviously even the minor suggestions do get paid attention to in the suggestions forum. That's why it's important that you post in the suggestions forum like the good forum user you are while he posts in the general forum and gets much more discussion and attention for his ideas.

Edit: There were tons more in general, but they eventually got moved to suggestions where they could die, some are therefore remade after a few months in general.

Ah yes, launching a thinly-veiled personal attack out of envy is always a sign of being a good forum user.

And if you're going to take shots at me, at least make sure you're using the right ammunition. One of those is an outright petition - which you listed twice, I might add - and another is a grievance about how unbalanced Artillery is and a request to nerf it (along with a few thoughts on how to possibly do so, as screaming 'nerf this, balance that' without any possible ideas about how to do so is just whiny).

And I have never had a thread moved to the Suggestions Forums, and certainly not 'to die'. Not once - the only one that comes remotely close to it was creating a single thread on the same topic in the general forums to get an idea on the forum's thoughts on it, and then creating another thread to submit it as a formal suggestion in the suggestions sub forum when it was received positively.

 

[Edmon]

Ah yes, launching a thinly-veiled personal attack out of envy is always a sign of being a good forum user.

And if you're going to take shots at me, at least make sure you're using the right ammunition. One of those is an outright petition - which you listed twice, I might add - and another is a grievance about how unbalanced Artillery is and a request to nerf it (along with a few thoughts on how to possibly do so, as screaming 'nerf this, balance that' without any possible ideas about how to do so is just whiny).

And I have never had a thread moved to the Suggestions Forums, and certainly not 'to die'. Not once - the only one that comes remotely close to it was creating a single thread on the same topic in the general forums to get an idea on the forum's thoughts on it, and then creating another thread to submit it as a formal suggestion in the suggestions sub forum when it was received positively.

It's not a personal attack. The first reply to a lot of these by someone else is "Great suggestion!" so I'm obviously not the only one who thinks you write thinly disguised suggestions on the general forum all day long. Just don't come in here and start saying that the suggestion forum is a great place for suggestions to go, because that's outrageously hypocritical of you. That's all.

 

[Shadowstrike]

To take a different tack here, the other downside about posting in the suggestions forum is that our ideas don't get debated by other forumites as much as they would if posted in the general forum. When I first returned here, I posted suggestions to this forum a lot, but would seldom get responses. Eventually I just gave up. Look, I understand that the devs have only a limited amount of time, and these ideas often take a long time to find their way to an update, and I'm OK with that. But it's really hard to develop, refine, and improve suggestions if fewer people are reading them because many people don't bother to come into the suggestions subforum at all.

 

[Grand Historian]

It's not a personal attack.

And yet you directed it at me because:

I'm obviously not the only one who thinks you write thinly disguised suggestions on the general forum all day long.

because that's outrageously hypocritical of you.

Seems rather personal, if not petty, to me, especially considering this comment you left a while back in another thread:

Why don't you put your suggestion in the suggestion board like my vaguely similar and long one?

The first reply to a lot of these by someone else is "Great suggestion!" so I'm obviously not the only one who thinks you write thinly disguised suggestions on the general forum all day long.

First reply from the first thread you listed:

Yeah i would love all of this. I know eu4 is a nation game but people were such an integral part of nations at this point. I mean heck stellaris has so many characters! Eu4 wouldnt even need that many or need them to be that dynamic.

I have often thought that dynasties and pu's need extensive overhauls. The history of modern europe is what it is thanks in a large part to pu's. Spain, italy, france, the british isles, germany, scandanavia, russia, poland, austria, hungary, portugal, or their component states were all at some time members of pu's within the last 1000 years. That is every major nation of europe and yet the pu mechanic is utter garbage.

An agreement that that particular mechanic needs to be expounded upon, and giving their thoughts on why it should, as well as a bit of a refutation of a common argument against it. Or; not a 'Great Suggestion!'.

To the second thread you listed (technically third):

"A lot of fantastic ideas! This would open up a lot of interesting gameplay options both for the Greek and Balkan states. I think it would also give some nice openings against the Ottomans for nations like Venice, Genoa, or Aragon.

As you said, Venice in particular was able to combat Ottoman dominance for quite a while, and some of these changes would give them more opportunities to do that."

Yes, this is along this lines of 'Great Suggestion!' - especially considering this thread is the only one that actually borders on being an outright suggestion.

To the third:

Give different unit types different speed like ships have
I want to be able to detach my cavalry so I can catch that army that's gonna get away otherwise

Boats have it, why can't land units have it?

Something I never even mentioned in the OP - hardly a 'Great Suggestion!'.

You seem to somehow be upset at the fact that I happen to write out lengthy editorals about mechanics I find could be improved in EU4, ask that they be improved, and then leave my own personal thoughts on how to do so to not come across as whiny and otherwise show that I'm trying to propose a solution to the problem I spent so much time presenting and talking about, and then invite other people to leave their own opinions.

I'm afraid I can't help you if your definition of a suggestion thread is caring enough about a problem to leave thoughts about how to fix it at the end of a thread written to draw general attention to the issue and summarize it - this is why my Suggestion for improving Japan is here, as it is an outright suggestion, and my petition for better Dynasty Mechanics is in the main forums, as it is a petition to remedy a problem (and of course, it would ill-behoove me not to offer ideas about said remedy).

Just don't come in here and start saying that the suggestion forum is a great place for suggestions to go, because that's outrageously hypocritical of you. That's all.

Considering that I have also written numerous suggestions in the Suggestion Subforums, including the only one I'm proud of enough to put in my signature, I really doubt it's hypocritical of me. Especially considering I've gotten more Dev Replies and acknowledgements to my threads in the suggestion subforums than I have in the main forums, despite large popular support - so I'm certainly qualified to say that it is a good place to leave outright suggestions if you want to be acknowledged by the Devs.

 

[Edmon]

You seem to somehow be upset at the fact that I happen to write out lengthy editorals about mechanics I find could be improved in EU4, ask that they be improved, and then leave my own personal thoughts on how to do so to not come across as whiny and otherwise show that I'm trying to propose a solution to the problem I spent so much time presenting and talking about, and then invite other people to leave their own opinions.

This is exactly what you do, but don't kid anyone, the whole point of it is so that the half-page that you write that is your suggestion can remain in the general forum, protected by the 1/4 page preamble you wrote at the beginning and the 1/4 page "so what do you think?" at the end.

You have hiding your suggestions in the discussion forum down to a fine art and you are not the only one. Lets just have one forum so it's not only people who are expert social engineers that get to be heard?