Suggestion that enhance japanes pirate to vs Ming

[summerice]

Paradox have enhanced north Africa pirate such as Morocco,Tunis to loot the Mediterranean coastal country.And you paradox have also enhanced Norse Religion as a pirate religion.Why not you paradox enhance the Japanese pirate,which be called "Wakko" in the new Heaven DLC?In detail ,you can design Shinto religion as pirate religion,like what you does in Crusader King DLC old God.

In effect,there is a massive war which Japan vs Ming in 1600 century,that directly make Ming gone to economic collapse then at last destroy by rebellion an Manchu invasion.

You can design Shinto can loot like Morroco and Tunis or like Norseman.In middle time of ming,there was 12 ronins which loot and attack coastal China,which make thousand Ming soldiers frightened.It is a shame that the army tradition is low in Ming.And last there is a china hero whose name Qi jiguang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi_Jiguang who train a elite army(which rise the army tradition seriously) and he destroy the headquarters of japan pirate.

So you paradox can use these tips to make the Heaven DLC much more balance in East Asia.You can make wakko much more aggresive,that they can loot loots money to make the war fund so the japan can lauch a war vs Ming.It will make the game more historically.In history,Toyotomi Hideyoshi invade Korea and Ming lauch a massive ware to aid his vessel Korea.

 

[summerice]

I am a Chinese ,who is History fans.There was a massive war in Ming and Japan(that Japan loot enough money to make war preparation fund),just like Catholic vs Protestant in Europe.So it will rise the experience of EU4.

 

[summerice]

The Ashikaga Shogunate didn't support Pirate to loot Ming.But when shogun lose his power,the daimyo can neglect the good diplomat between shogun and Ming.Daimyo lack money so they begin to support pirate to earn money.In fact ,the shogun is also a tribute country of China

 

[chatnoir17]

For your interest, Kono clan in Iyo province has such a pirate NI set.

KNO_ideas = {
   start = {
       global_own_trade_power = 0.1
       navy_tradition = 1       
   }
   
   bonus = {
       trade_efficiency = 0.1
   }

   trigger = {
       tag = KNO
   }
   free = yes
   
   kno_shugo_of_iyo = {
       naval_forcelimit_modifier = 0.25
   }
   kno_integration_of_cadet_branches = {
       galley_cost = -0.2
   }
   kno_oyamazumi_shrine = {
       naval_morale = 0.2
   }
   kno_yuzuki_castle = {
       global_autonomy = -0.05
   }
   kno_ruler_of_inland_sea = {
       galley_power = 0.15
   }
   kno_trade_with_asian_continent = {
       trade_range_modifier = 0.2
   }
   kno_murakami_suigun = {
       capture_ship_chance = 0.1
       privateer_efficiency = 0.2
   }
}

 

[summerice]

For your interest, Kono clan in Iyo province has such a pirate NI set.

KNO_ideas = {
   start = {
       global_own_trade_power = 0.1
       navy_tradition = 1     
   }
 
   bonus = {
       trade_efficiency = 0.1
   }

   trigger = {
       tag = KNO
   }
   free = yes
 
   kno_shugo_of_iyo = {
       naval_forcelimit_modifier = 0.25
   }
   kno_integration_of_cadet_branches = {
       galley_cost = -0.2
   }
   kno_oyamazumi_shrine = {
       naval_morale = 0.2
   }
   kno_yuzuki_castle = {
       global_autonomy = -0.05
   }
   kno_ruler_of_inland_sea = {
       galley_power = 0.15
   }
   kno_trade_with_asian_continent = {
       trade_range_modifier = 0.2
   }
   kno_murakami_suigun = {
       capture_ship_chance = 0.1
       privateer_efficiency = 0.2
   }
}

I want to add pirate loot trait in shinto religion,for rykuy is japanese but they worship animalist.Only believe in shinto can loot money from China or Korea.Actually Ryukyu never loot China.It is a tribute of China.

 

[chatnoir17]

I want to add pirate loot trait in shinto religion,for rykuy is japanese but they worship animalist.Only believe in shinto can loot money from China or Korea.Actually Ryukyu never loot China.It is a tribute of China.

Eastern Japan wasn't involved in the piracy though. F.e. Date, Takeda, Hojo, Oda, Tokugawa didn't send pirates (or marchants) in China.
In addition, stealing money from China or Korea is somehow represented in trade/naval NIs of western Daimyos such as Hosokawa and Ouchi.

Hosokawa

HSK_ideas = {
   start = {
       galley_power = 0.2
       infantry_power = 0.1
   }
   
   bonus = {
       global_institution_spread = 0.1
   }

   trigger = {
       tag = HSK
   }
   free = yes
   
   hsk_kanrei = {
       legitimacy = 1
   }
   
   hsk_branches_and_retainers = {
       global_unrest = -1
   }
   
   hsk_sakai_city = {
       global_foreign_trade_power = 0.1
   }
   
   hsk_leader_of_eastern_army = {
       land_forcelimit_modifier = 0.2
   }
   
   hsk_ashigaru = {
       global_manpower_modifier = 0.2
   }
   
   hsk_yamabushi = {
       spy_offence = 0.2
   }
   
   hsk_horeki_reform = {
       development_cost = -0.1
   }
   
}

Shoni

SHN_ideas = {
   start = {
       land_forcelimit_modifier = 0.2
       trade_efficiency = 0.1
   }
   
   bonus = {
       global_own_trade_power = 0.1
   }

   trigger = {
       tag = SHN
   }
   free = yes
   
   shn_vice_minister_of_dazaifu = {
       diplomatic_reputation = 1
   }
   
   shn_defender_against_mongols = {
       land_morale = 0.1
   }

   shn_diplomacy_through_tsushima = {
       diplomats = 1
   }
   
   shn_nagasaki_city = {
       merchants = 1
   }
   
   shn_bear_of_hizen = {
       leader_land_shock = 1
   }

   shn_hagakure = {
       army_tradition_decay = -0.01
   }

   shn_nabeshima_reform = {
       technology_cost = -0.05
   }

}

Ouchi

OUC_ideas = {
   start = {
       global_unrest = -1
       global_ship_cost = -0.1
   }
   
   bonus = {
       trade_efficiency = 0.1
   }

   trigger = {
       tag = OUC
   }
   free = yes
   
   ouc_descendant_of_baekje = {
       diplomatic_reputation = 1
   }
   
   ouc_korea_trade = {
       global_own_trade_power = 0.2
   }
   
   ouc_fight_against_wokou = {
       naval_morale = 0.15
   }
   
   ouc_hakata_city = {
       merchants = 1
   }
   
   ouc_mercantile_diplomacy = {
       trade_steering = 0.15
   }
   
   ouc_welcome_missionaries = {
       tolerance_heathen = 1
       tolerance_heretic = 1
   }
   
   ouc_retainer_factions = {
       advisor_cost = -0.1
   }

}

 

[summerice]

Eastern Japan wasn't involved in the piracy though. F.e. Date, Takeda, Hojo, Oda, Tokugawa didn't send pirates (or marchants) in China.
In addition, stealing money from China or Korea is somehow represented in trade/naval NIs of western Daimyos such as Hosokawa and Ouchi.

Hosokawa

HSK_ideas = {
   start = {
       galley_power = 0.2
       infantry_power = 0.1
   }
 
   bonus = {
       global_institution_spread = 0.1
   }

   trigger = {
       tag = HSK
   }
   free = yes
 
   hsk_kanrei = {
       legitimacy = 1
   }
 
   hsk_branches_and_retainers = {
       global_unrest = -1
   }
 
   hsk_sakai_city = {
       global_foreign_trade_power = 0.1
   }
 
   hsk_leader_of_eastern_army = {
       land_forcelimit_modifier = 0.2
   }
 
   hsk_ashigaru = {
       global_manpower_modifier = 0.2
   }
 
   hsk_yamabushi = {
       spy_offence = 0.2
   }
 
   hsk_horeki_reform = {
       development_cost = -0.1
   }
 
}

Shoni

SHN_ideas = {
   start = {
       land_forcelimit_modifier = 0.2
       trade_efficiency = 0.1
   }
 
   bonus = {
       global_own_trade_power = 0.1
   }

   trigger = {
       tag = SHN
   }
   free = yes
 
   shn_vice_minister_of_dazaifu = {
       diplomatic_reputation = 1
   }
 
   shn_defender_against_mongols = {
       land_morale = 0.1
   }

   shn_diplomacy_through_tsushima = {
       diplomats = 1
   }
 
   shn_nagasaki_city = {
       merchants = 1
   }
 
   shn_bear_of_hizen = {
       leader_land_shock = 1
   }

   shn_hagakure = {
       army_tradition_decay = -0.01
   }

   shn_nabeshima_reform = {
       technology_cost = -0.05
   }

}

Ouchi

OUC_ideas = {
   start = {
       global_unrest = -1
       global_ship_cost = -0.1
   }
 
   bonus = {
       trade_efficiency = 0.1
   }

   trigger = {
       tag = OUC
   }
   free = yes
 
   ouc_descendant_of_baekje = {
       diplomatic_reputation = 1
   }
 
   ouc_korea_trade = {
       global_own_trade_power = 0.2
   }
 
   ouc_fight_against_wokou = {
       naval_morale = 0.15
   }
 
   ouc_hakata_city = {
       merchants = 1
   }
 
   ouc_mercantile_diplomacy = {
       trade_steering = 0.15
   }
 
   ouc_welcome_missionaries = {
       tolerance_heathen = 1
       tolerance_heretic = 1
   }
 
   ouc_retainer_factions = {
       advisor_cost = -0.1
   }

}

It seems that those daimyo are not kind ,but cuz the japanese ship have a range to sail and their fleet cannot safely reach china shore. And are you japanese? I think paradox make their sweden as pirate not see it evil but see it an honor.I don't hate japanese like my neigbouring people,just want make it much more conlict in new DLC which concering East Asia

 

[Mantis42]

Not only should Japan get a boost to piracy, but unchecked Wukou should hurt Ming's Mandate, as coastal raids were a big problem for them in real life.

 

[summerice]

Not only should Japan get a boost to piracy, but unchecked Wukou should hurt Ming's Mandate, as coastal raids were a big problem for them in real life.

Are you korean?I am new here.But play paradox games for 10 years form HOI2.
Also in heaven DLC should add korean hero general Yi Sun-sin and famous king
Sejong the Great

 

[chatnoir17]

It seems that those daimyo are not kind ,but cuz the japanese ship have a range to sail and their fleet cannot safely reach china shore. And are you japanese? I think paradox make their sweden as pirate not see it evil but see it an honor.I don't hate japanese like my neigbouring people,just want make it much more conlict in new DLC which concering East Asia

Yes, I am Japanese, and I think it is bit strange to connect the piracy "directly" with Shinto for several reasons (very weak connection with Shinto and piracy, less participation of guys in central and eastern Japan, and somehow international character of later wokou, f.e. Koxinga or his father).
While Vikings and Wakou are different things, I don't totally dislike them. Actually I like new Japan's NI called "Maritime Legacy", which relates with the pirate tradition.

I rather prefer to see them as new disaster for Ming. You know, "Nothern Hordes and Southern Japanese Pirates" were the biggest problem of Ming, but we have only one disaster about Northern trouble.

 

[summerice]

Yes, I am Japanese, and I think it is bit strange to connect the piracy "directly" with Shinto for several reasons (very weak connection with Shinto and piracy, less participation of guys in central and eastern Japan, and somehow international character of later wokou, f.e. Koxinga or his father).
While Vikings and Wakou are different things, I don't totally dislike them. Actually I like new Japan's NI called "Maritime Legacy", which relates with the pirate tradition.

I rather prefer to see them as new disaster for Ming. You know, "Nothern Hordes and Southern Japanese Pirates" were the biggest problem of Ming, but we have only one disaster about Northern trouble.

What is NI?Pardon my ignorance..
It can make a rule wokko cannot reach too far,cuz wokko doesn't go even far to Philipine or Indonesia.So the middle and east japan cannot reach china and west japan can reach china but not reach far to Philippine.
I think it is that shogun lose power,so the daimyo can independently attack Ming which shogun don't formally attack Ming.

 

[chatnoir17]

What is NI?Pardon my ignorance..

No problem! This one.

 jap_maritime_legacy:0 "Maritime Legacy"
 jap_maritime_legacy_desc:0 "Some would say our maritime traditions are those of fishermen and pirates more than traders and navies. While nothing could be farther from the truth it is true that we have an instinctive feeling for the sea and naval maneuvers. Let us formalize this experience to naval doctrine and build a new navy worthy of our empire.

 

[summerice]

No problem! This one.

 jap_maritime_legacy:0 "Maritime Legacy"
 jap_maritime_legacy_desc:0 "Some would say our maritime traditions are those of fishermen and pirates more than traders and navies. While nothing could be farther from the truth it is true that we have an instinctive feeling for the sea and naval maneuvers. Let us formalize this experience to naval doctrine and build a new navy worthy of our empire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ningbo_Incident It is the beginning of wakko..But after tokugawa got the power he forbid sailing to foreign country,so the wokko was also stopped.So the mechanics is ,if shogunate gets power the wokko will stop.If not or anarchy,it will be once more.And the sum of navy of wakko will be much stronger than Ming navy so ming cannot stop them.

 

[chatnoir17]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ningbo_Incident It is the beginning of wakko..But after tokugawa got the power he forbid sailing to foreign country,so the wokko was also stopped.So the mechanics is ,if shogunate gets power the wokko will stop.If not or anarchy,it will be once more.And the sum of navy of wakko will be much stronger than Ming navy so ming cannot stop them.

Some years ago, I made an Asian mod for EU3 and also tried to represent wokou support by Japanese daimyos. Honestly speaking, my idea was quite similar with yours, but it wasn't so interesting as game mechanic (send a pirate group to the continent, wait for while and check if they bring back some treasury or not). Maybe there would be another way and wiser man than me could make a better system...
And it is also somehow hard to represent weak Ming navy in the current version. Their navy and the sea ban policy could have a better way to represent. It is very important for wakou too.

 

[xsa1222]

From the view of history, the so called 'japanese pirate problems' is not mainly caused by japanese actually. The fundamental reason for the pirate is the trade ban policy made by Zhun Yuanzhang, most 'pirates' are actually Chinese businessmen with some armed ships and merchant fleets. They would rob other ships if they thought it was profitable, otherwise, they would sit down and trade with you. The nature of these guys are businessmen, they are driven by profit. However the policy ban obstructed the trade development in South China which had been very flourishing since Song dynasty. These guys who might be regulated businessmen now become pirates, and among these fights between pirates and Ming or pirates within, there are a few Japanese banished samurai hired to take assault (due to their high displine). These Japanese were not in the leader position, they were merely hired fighters. In one word, the pirate problem is a more interior ruling problem than a exterior diplomatic problem.

 

[summerice]

From the view of history, the so called 'japanese pirate problems' is not mainly caused by japanese actually. The fundamental reason for the pirate is the trade ban policy made by Zhun Yuanzhang, most 'pirates' are actually Chinese businessmen with some armed ships and merchant fleets. They would rob other ships if they thought it was profitable, otherwise, they would sit down and trade with you. The nature of these guys are businessmen, they are driven by profit. However the policy ban obstructed the trade development in South China which had been very flourishing since Song dynasty. These guys who might be regulated businessmen now become pirates, and among these fights between pirates and Ming or pirates within, there are a few Japanese banished samurai hired to take assault (due to their high displine). These Japanese were not in the leader position, they were merely hired fighters. In one word, the pirate problem is a more interior ruling problem than a exterior diplomatic problem.

I knew what you say.I just want to add some interesting conflict in heaven DLC,for Ming is much more powerful than ever.

 

[gigau]

to the Suggestions subforum.

 

[neondt]

From the view of history, the so called 'japanese pirate problems' is not mainly caused by japanese actually. The fundamental reason for the pirate is the trade ban policy made by Zhun Yuanzhang, most 'pirates' are actually Chinese businessmen with some armed ships and merchant fleets. They would rob other ships if they thought it was profitable, otherwise, they would sit down and trade with you. The nature of these guys are businessmen, they are driven by profit. However the policy ban obstructed the trade development in South China which had been very flourishing since Song dynasty. These guys who might be regulated businessmen now become pirates, and among these fights between pirates and Ming or pirates within, there are a few Japanese banished samurai hired to take assault (due to their high displine). These Japanese were not in the leader position, they were merely hired fighters. In one word, the pirate problem is a more interior ruling problem than a exterior diplomatic problem.

To add to this, when piracy became rampant in the 1520's and onwards many 'pirates' started to base their operations outside of China. It's not a coincidence that this is also when we start seeing large Chinese communities emerging in South-East Asia (both continental and maritime). Pattani for example was a major hub for these people, a place where they could safely sell their illicit Chinese goods without fear of reprisals. Another things traders did was to exploit China's tributary relationship with Ryukyu; their traders were allowed to buy Chinese goods to a limited extent. This made the Ryukyus a semi-legitimate place to buy Chinese porcelain and silk. The wider point here is that Ming's anti-piracy policies were hopelessly ineffective, and instead of legitimsing and profiting from foreign trade, the Ming state was economically crippled by it.