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unmerged(19911)

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Sep 21, 2003
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Well, I´m new to Ck and, after playing some fun games with Duchy of Argyll under pacht 1.04a, I´ve tried to play as Portugal in the Third Crusade scenario. Being a brazilian guy who is also a History student at my local university, I felt compelled to play a game with the portuguese and (if possible), carry it to EUII.

The problems began after I´ve reinforced my country and got myself a excellent Marshal (Mart 14), being myself a pretty good solider (Mart 12). Then I tried to DoW the shiekdom of Alcantra, to start my conquest of the muslim infidels. But behold: even after all my building and waiting, I have amassed the huge amount of 15k soldiers. The problem was that the shiekdom of Alcantra could muster 75k troops, between the Emirate of Sevilha and the Almohads. Now, I thought that was bad, but perhaps all the combined mighty of the Iberic christianity could take the infidel plague out of Holy Iberia. So I´ve conquered all of Lion, Castille and (now), Navarra. Strangely enough, it was almost too easy to do that (in comparrision with the muslim hordes, the cristian armys are puny).

Still, after waiting long years to get my troops together (and with the help of 2.500 very expensive mercenaries), I could muster some 43k man, against the 85K of the Almohads. Still, being a sttuborn fool, I´ve DoW them just for the heck of it. The result was that I not only fought those 85k man, but a few of the "allies" of the almohads in North Africa. ALSO being technological superior, the almohads could have wiped the floor with my iberian ass. I THINK that if I conquer all of Aragon also, I COULD, MAYBE, have a shot at it.

Well, I now that the "right" tactic in this situation is to crusade in the baltic, get a whole bunch of northern provinces an bring the Prussians, Lithuanians and Finnish pagans to crush the Mourish Infidels in spain. Actually, the most quick way to pull a World Conquer in CK is to annex the baltic region and than start to "hunt" for good titles in christianity. Strangely enough, this absolute CRUCIAL region in the game (as it is), is completly ignored by the Swedes and the Germans. But the problem still stands: if I want to try a conquest of Iberia using (mostly) Iberian christians, it´s almost impossible.

This long story is just my personal rant, but the purpose of this post is to propose some solutions to the devs (who, I hope, keep a eye on this). I will start, but feel free to add as you wish:

1) Reduce the manpower of the Almohads. Seriously, it´s way too high. A 20% cut would do wonders, without crippling them.

2) I don´t know how this can be done, but the Muslims should not be all the best buddies in the world. There should be as much infighting amongst the moors, as there is among the christian kings. Also, the muslims should do more than to sit around, improve their provinces, keep a obscene army and wait for you to DoW them. They should have CONFLICTS to keep then busy. This, in a minor stance, should apply to christian kingdoms as well.
Heck, I don´t have the slightless idea why the Almohads have not conquered the whole of Iberia, since there is no force in the land to fight them. They actually do it on ocasions, but far less that would be expected. They should be weaker, but more agressive.

3) The siege thing is completly off-balance. While in the beginning of the game you can actually spend a decade in front of a Hill Fort and see your 1.000 man regiment reduced to 100, in the later parts of the game (well, in the middle, realy), some 5.000 man can bring down even a Large Castle in a few months, without serious actrition. This is simply wrong.
Given the fact that, even with Trebuchets (who, in my opnion, come too early in the game and are, primarily a muslim ivention, when it should be a christian), a well stached and occupied large castle was virtualy INVENCIBLE in the middle ages, the sieges should be much longer. Seriously, go take a look at the Krak de Chevaliers in the Holy Land, even Saladino with his immense army did not dare face the prospect of a siege in castles like the Krak and Ascalon. Constatinople was even more impregnable. Sieges are too easy in CK and the atriction in Iberia is way too low (remember, it has a lot of dry land in it!).
This change may lead to a suscefull "sneak attack" by the part of the Christian Kingdoms, who could conquer some of the smaller muslim provinces before the Almohads could land in Spain (see below) and then make a strategy of holding on the forts, very much like what was done in RL.

3) PLEASE GOD: Don´t allow enemy armies to march through your provinces untouched. They should either: 1) have to take down the fortifications and THEN go trough or 2) make it as in EUII, being able to keep a small garrison to cover the fort (best solutions, but I don´t have hopes it will be implemented), but with slightly less atriction (because the medieval armys were more able to feed themselves off the enemy) or 3) Make the atriction modifier of the armys progressivily higher (and I mean HIGH) as they distance themselves from "friendly" territory.

4) Make a HUGE atriction modifier for long range naval movements. Also, HUGE atriction to armys who are being supplied form the sea. Or better yet, a monetary cost to keep the line of supplies open (like the huge amount of money that was spent in the Third Crusade to maintain the Venician fleet who supplied the crusading army). This could help keep the expansion of the Muslims (and, for that matter, the iberians, italians and so on) in northern Europe and vice-versa. To not offset the crusading aspect, it could be added a bonus to naval transport cost (and less atriction) for Crusader characters, as long as the movement endend in a pagan or infidel province. This would, also, help make the kings WANT to be crusaders, to get this bonus and be able to conquer infidel or pagan lands.

4) Target crusades and crusader endings. Discussed ad nausea in the forums. You should be able to take a crusade against targets in Iberia (or other infidel and pagan land). Ties with the next point.

5) Implant a "Crusader Knights come to your aid" event. When you crusade, you get events to bring in crusader knights from all over christianity to help you fight. You could "buy" them with piety instead of money, and they would disband after the crusade was over. This was VERY important in the "Reconquista" of Iberia. The father of the first King of Portugal was a crusader from France who got the "Condado Portucalense" as a reward for good services. This would represent the household knights and small barons who joined the crusades en masse (actually, they were the main force in the First Crusade). These troops should be primarily knights and so on, and come in numbers sufficient to make a difference.

Well, I could think of many more, but I´m in serious need of sleep. I hope this thread will go soewhere and, perhaps, help the game. I´ll post more when i can.
 
I think most important way to fix the iberian problem is to have the enormous tech difference between moslems and christians there balanced out. Especially in war techs. Give christians some weapons and armour to fight with, take some away from iberian muslims.
 
I already did that myself Bykhiam and I can tell you that it has no effect whatsoever. OK it does balances the thing a bit, but that is still by far not enough. The real problem is in the Muslim army which they can summon. Compared to the christian kingdoms it is 5 to 6 times greater. This is wrong and unhistorical and should also be fixed in the name of balacne only if not for anything else....
 
Krunoslav got it on the mark. The main problem is not the technological diference (althogh this is a part of the problem), but a buch of other things, some of which I covered in the first post.

As to the technological aspect, i have a suggestion.

The arab muslims in Iberia (and generally in the whole world) should have better "production" technologies than the christian european lands (like they have now, perhaps even more!). Better architecture, road-building and such.

On the other hand, in all things military the europeans should have a sligthless advantage. Why? Because IRL the fragmentend asd warring western culture has ALWAYS been more military advanced than any other culture in the world since the Roman Empire (with the possible exception of China and Japan, none of which plays any part in the game). Europe has always been a darwinistic paradise, with that much infighting, only the strong persevere!

Europeans should have better castles, better hand-combat weapons (slashing, piercing and crushing), better armor (specially chain and platemail) and better offensive tactics than anyone else. Siege equipment should be equal in the beginning to all parties. The muslims should have good light cavalry, mounted archers and regular archers, as well as defensive tactics. The Horde, of course, should have splendid light cavalry, horse archers, good "knights" and a LOT of manpower (like they do now).
 
Well, you could remove their economical good techs too. One other way to go would be to make all those iberian muslim emirs really lousy at war, so that in the long run their war techs wouldn't improve nearly as well as with the warlike christians (aka higher martial skills). Also, one could make them very undiplomatic, as diplomatic skills decide how many allies they can have and how loyal their vassals are, which can cause vassals to war their lieges if diplo is bad enough.
 
I noticed that (correct me if this was changed in 1.04, I noticed this before that) the level 1 military techs give a much larger bonus than the level 2 ones do. Many of the Muslims in Iberia begin at level 2 while the Christians start at level 0. Perhaps the Christians should be moved up to level 1, or else the muslims moved down and the bonuses reduced?

What I'm looking at is that if the tech advantage is only one level, instead of two (really three, with the larger bonuses), it might be easier on the Christians.

Also, perhaps (like with human players), the liege coming to defense of the vassal should not be an automatic. This would allow players to "roll the dice", so to speak, on nibbling off a shiekdom or two without calling down three emirates on them.

Oh, and it's probably historical, but some of those emirates are rather large. Yes, they do have richer provinces, but I think that's historical too.

An alternative to nerfing their stats though - boost the Christians? As I recall, the Spanish seriously intermarried with France and Italy, and this would make them more desirable too.... tossing out some 14/14/8/8 guys might just help tip the balance.

I'm not saying that the Christians should be superior - they shouldn't, at least in the 1066 scenario. But they also should not be so weak that the Muslims easily defeat them every time.
 
I think you could try to drop iberian muslim emir base diplo values to like 1 or 2. That will reduce the amount of allies they have each and makes it definetly harder to go into anywhat longer wars with vassals' troops and if they have bad luck with chancellors, they might face a civil war even during peace.