Suggestions to improve/fix/save the challenge and gameplay of EoS

[Van Diemen]

First, I would like to say that I have been following this game for a long time and had great hopes for getting a modern gangster game with deep strategic elements. However, after observing on Youtube and Twitch for many hours how people play I felt very disappointed in how the game turned out. I really feel that this game could still be somewhat redeemed once the bugs are fixed. However, there are also issues that really require a much greater overhaul of some of the mechanics used. Because I really hope to be able to love this game (someday), I would like to share a couple of suggestions of which I believe these could improve/fix some aspects of the game in upcoming patches or expansions.

- Safehouses should be much better protected
Both from the outside and especially from the inside, safehouses should become much better protected to prevent the gamey option of outright attacking such a place and killing the boss easily to take over the entire gang/rackets. Safehouses are currently anything but safe nor a challenge, which it should be. For one, when attacking the guards outside of the safehouse the AI that are inside should be well prepared/altered to face the intruders. This means that they should set up an ambush (e.g. barricade the entrance) . Furthermore, the first round should be to the imitative of the defender and defenders should get a bonus of getting one more action, each round. Unfair? Perhaps, but it will prevent some steamrolling and one could argue that a defender is much more familiar with the "terrain" they are fighting on.

- Gangsters should directly recruit bodyguards, but shouldn't be able to group up into one OP group as is currently happening
Gangsters can currently join together into one big group, whereas the AI hardly does this. This gives a huge advantage to the player. Either improve the AI significantly to allow them to work in a group much better or limit the amount of unique gangsters a player can use in a group. One alternative could be to go more towards the gameplay used in an old 2001 game called "Gangsters II". Here, muscle/bodyguards could be hired so that each Gangster would form a group along with 4 muscle/bodyguards. In the current game, the guards as used to protect the rackets could serve this role imo. Not only could this prevent stacking of OP gangsters in one single group, also it would make each Gangster start to feel more influential than being just a mere pawn/bodyguard for the boss.

- Police/law should play a much more active role
When first observing how the game played, I had hopes that the law would play a much more active role. Atm, they are more an annoyance rather than a treat: they take sides in a fight (outside) and sometimes perform raids which forces you to temporary shutdown a racket. However, I feel that if the police would much more actively intervene they could provide the player a much bigger challenge. For one, fights should trigger appearance of more police the longer fights lasts. These could spawn as "reinforcements" in a fighting zone and take sides depending on whether they are corrupted by a gang. Furthermore, it would be great if every single neighborhood would have their own police station that can be individually influenced/bribed. Not only could this provide a nice money sink, but it could also be great to indirectly use the police against other gangs.

- Diplomacy improvements: It should be possible for defeated gang bosses to join/ally with your gang
Albeit perhaps somewhat ahistorical, I do feel that it would be nice if defeated gang bosses could become part of your gang (as an underboss for instance). After you defeat them, you should perhaps be able to "vassalize" them so they work for you instead as for themselves. Not only will this preserve their unique characters in your game, it would feel that different victories (such as a submission victory) could be an option.

- Export/sell alcohol outside of the city to make some more cash
In addition to selling alcohol to other gang bosses, it could be a nice idea to export the alcohol outside of the city for some additional cash. Importing alcohol from Canada for instance should also be possible.

- Police/law should be able to arrest and prosecute wanted gangsters
Wanted gangsters should be arrested and put on trial. Bribing the police, judge and/or politicians should impact the possibility of getting them released. For example, if one of your gangsters get arrested you could pay 15,000 dollars to get them released. The amount of money could be determined by how many people are already "on your payroll".

I hope that these suggestions can be discussed here. Please feel free to post your thoughts and I really hope that with some patches or expansions this game can be improved a lot to become the ultimate gangster grand strategy game it deserves to be!

 

[Colonel Bogey]

My suggestion would be to not have the game pause whilst looking in menus. I need to spend more time in the menus to study what's going on with my empire. At present my funds only increase (whilst producing profit) if I'm in the game map, which means I have little to do if I want to accrue money (I can do quests, but they usually lead to other instances that pause the game). It simply stops if I'm in any of the menus, diplomacy or in a combat instance. That would improve the gameplay hugely for me.

 

[Blaeys]

Killing a boss shouldnt gift all of his territory to you immediately with no lead in effort.

Not sure the best way to do it, but one idea I thought of would be some kind of reputation system with his gang - which could even be used to create turncoats within his ranks. Most importantly, however, you couldn't discover the bosses location or attack him until you accrued a set amount of reputation (which could be earned through helping his underlings or through outright fear by attacking them).

Just a thought - and not one that has been completely thought out, but it seems like something that could be done without disrupting what is there now. Regardless - something needs to be done. Empire of Sin is currently a strategy game that only requires one strategy (kill boss, get territory, rinse and repeat until done, ignore everything else).

 

[Colonel Bogey]

Killing a boss shouldnt gift all of his territory to you immediately with no lead in effort.

Does this still exist though? Because I turned over a safehouse yesterday to try this out, won, and the gang's rackets persisted following me removing the safehouse.

 

[Blaeys]

Does this still exist though? Because I turned over a safehouse yesterday to try this out, won, and the gang's rackets persisted following me removing the safehouse.

If it changed, they never said anything about it.

Also, your statement above is a little confusing (might be on my end). Are you saying that you killed a major enemy boss and didnt get all of their territory? If so, that is a step in the right direction (and it makes me wonder how you take over their territory now if that is the case).

 

[Colonel Bogey]

If it changed, they never said anything about it.

Also, your statement above is a little confusing (might be on my end). Are you saying that you killed a major enemy boss and didnt get all of their territory? If so, that is a step in the right direction (and it makes me wonder how you take over their territory now if that is the case).

I didn't kill an enemy boss, I wiped out their safe house. Which is what I assumed you had to do to wipe out an enemy boss based upon what others had said.

 

[Blaeys]

I didn't kill an enemy boss, I wiped out their safe house. Which is what I assumed you had to do to wipe out an enemy boss based upon what others had said.

The trigger is actually defeating the boss - which is actually easier than clearing a safe house. All you have to do in the fight is rush the boss and then get to the exit, apparently. Either way, it is way too easy and need to be fixed.

 

[Colonel Bogey]

The trigger is actually defeating the boss - which is actually easier than clearing a safe house. All you have to do in the fight is rush the boss and then get to the exit, apparently. Either way, it is way too easy and need to be fixed.

I couldn't find the boss! haha. I'm not even good at cheating.

 

[Blaeys]

The strategic layer of the game should be about interaction between characters and the economics of running an illegal network of rackets.

On the first point - when you defeat a boss, you shouldnt just get all their territory. The game should look at the other members of that gang and give the territory to the underling that has the most prestige in that particular gang - or, alternatively, if there are conflicts within that gang, it should be split among the underbosses (this should be possible in your own gang if you lose the respect of some of your underlings as well, btw - controlling rackets should be about maintaining prestige and the respect of your underlings, either through pure respect, fear or plain old cash). To add to this, you should be able to compromise some of those underbosses - meaning that, when you defeat their godfather and they get their chance to lead, they decide to follow you instead.

There should should also be ways to take over pieces of territory from other gangs that dont involve outright battle by gaining the respect of underbosses overseeing specific rackets (and every racket should have an underboss in charge of it). Maybe one of the underlings of another boss is in love with one of yours - or you - or they have a trait that causes them to respect something specific about your character (causing them to come to you offering to either leave their current boss or betray them in some way) - or maybe you just offer to pay them.

This is the kind of game I expected - and that I still hope for. This interplay between characters should be the core of the game. What we have now has no substance and no strategic consequence whatsoever - kill a single character = get 20 rackets, rinse/repeat, game is over.

The game has the potential - and the mechanics in place already (there are rudimentary relationship mechanics between characters now) - to be an amazing game. I worry they stretched themselves too thin trying to put it out on multiple platforms and rushed to market for the holidays, and that resulted in a very lackluster and unfinished experience.

Again, the potential is there - and they may still fix it. Until they do, however, they dont even need to think the phrases DLC or expansion. The game as it stands now still needs to be finished.

 

[jimmijamez]

If it changed, they never said anything about it.

Also, your statement above is a little confusing (might be on my end). Are you saying that you killed a major enemy boss and didnt get all of their territory? If so, that is a step in the right direction (and it makes me wonder how you take over their territory now if that is the case).

Prob had more than one safe house, another in another district, i encountered A.I. with 2 safehouses, u can build one in every district, and if boss not in safehouse you don't get whole racket.

 

[mikelosaurus]

With my own game developer hat on, one of my first thoughts when playing was that the pacing of the different game elements seems to be really off. If I invest in rackets and sit back and wait for the income to mature it takes a significant amount of time for your cash to build up to a useful level. And while you are waiting new gangsters are lining up to be hired, rackets needs upgrading, other gang bosses are hassling you and threatening to take over your territory. The game is constantly encouraging you to spend money you don't have and/or can't get back. Combating your way through a series of racket takeovers is a much faster income boost by comparison, but even then each individual acquisition is quite modest, forcing you in a continual rampage which never ends but also seems compulsory. And all of this combat seems to render the apparently detailed and nuanced economics of the game around prosperity, racket types and alcohol types meaningless. I'd like to see all of this rebalanced, and I'd like to see better tutorials that explain the economics of the game properly.

 

[Colonel Bogey]

Prob had more than one safe house, another in another district, i encountered A.I. with 2 safehouses, u can build one in every district, and if boss not in safehouse you don't get whole racket.

That probably explains it.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

With my own game developer hat on, one of my first thoughts when playing was that the pacing of the different game elements seems to be really off. If I invest in rackets and sit back and wait for the income to mature it takes a significant amount of time for your cash to build up to a useful level. And while you are waiting new gangsters are lining up to be hired, rackets needs upgrading, other gang bosses are hassling you and threatening to take over your territory. The game is constantly encouraging you to spend money you don't have and/or can't get back. Combating your way through a series of racket takeovers is a much faster income boost by comparison, but even then each individual acquisition is quite modest, forcing you in a continual rampage which never ends but also seems compulsory. And all of this combat seems to render the apparently detailed and nuanced economics of the game around prosperity, racket types and alcohol types meaningless. I'd like to see all of this rebalanced, and I'd like to see better tutorials that explain the economics of the game properly.

I tend to agree.

The economy built by Chris King is very, very well done. It makes perfect sense, and should be the foundation for further growth. It is my favorite part of the game.

The music and graphics are exceptional. The soundtrack is catchy and I actually look forward to hearing some of the songs that got stuck in my head from the day before.

Combat is good - a bit over emphasized but I tend to enjoy it for a while until the repetition becomes redundant.

The game FEELS like the era - until you begin looking at the cast of characters comprising the Gangster's Black Book

Now for the bad:

The Bosses are well written and their backstories are all compelling - but when they sit down to talk to one another it is the same conversation over and over and over again. A waste of frigging time after the first one or two are enjoyed.

The Gangster X falling in love with Gangster Y bit is just stupid, cheap, and feels like someone got drunk at a party and said 'hey, what if we roll a six sided die twice and those two players fall in love'. The permutations are so random they feel like a 'Screw You' from the devs. I could care less about same sex relationships, it is nothing new, that is not the problem. It is the sheer randomness of it that offends and the fact it is included in the game shows how little thought the devs put into the game play before hurrying it up for release.

The economy's only purpose is to pay the shooter team. The entire game does not revolve around anything but the shooter team. All that brilliant work is boiled down to which team of shooters you assemble to wipe out your competition even while standing in front of a team of cops.

The game can't decide if it is a historical piece, or a fun kids game, and cramming everything into one title is just - disappointing. As if they are smart enough to read the histories they love to say is the basis of this game, but their personal agenda to get unique genetic creations in Bizarre Love Triangles get in the way of the implementation.

They have a LOT to work with. This game is ALMOST brilliant. They need to make a simple decision - is this a Paradox quality historical drama based on Paul Muni's 'Scarfce', or is it a Woke kid's console game based on 'Suicide Squad'. You tried to do both at the same time and the entire world mocks your product. Pick one and run with it, please.

 

[Atreides]

The core systems are really very well done - it how those systems interact with each other that is the problem.

Attacking to add rackets is very easy, and far more profitable than upgrading existing ones.

Defending your rackets is a waste of time since any individual racket has so low little value, or you just take more from whomever you are warring with.

The sheer number of available rackets also devalues any care or concern for protecting or developing a particular racket or creating a 'brand focus' as it were for your empire.

Outright attacking rackets needs to be more difficult, while still being rewarding.
Defending rackets needs to be less often, but more meaningful to do.
and... the teleporting around hostile territory entirely needs to go away. (i think this might be the real crutch of what makes the other systems seem to fall apart so easily)

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

The core systems are really very well done - it how those systems interact with each other that is the problem.

Attacking to add rackets is very easy, and far more profitable than upgrading existing ones.

Defending your rackets is a waste of time since any individual racket has so low little value, or you just take more from whomever you are warring with.

The sheer number of available rackets also devalues any care or concern for protecting or developing a particular racket or creating a 'brand focus' as it were for your empire.

Outright attacking rackets needs to be more difficult, while still being rewarding.
Defending rackets needs to be less often, but more meaningful to do.
and... the teleporting around hostile territory entirely needs to go away. (i think this might be the real crutch of what makes the other systems seem to fall apart so easily)

Bi-lal Kaifa

 

[Colonel Bogey]

There's a fast game and a slow game. Get a reasonable mob together and rush everyone's rackets which leads to victory. If that is the solution then what is the point of all the economical aspects? Or you could gradually improve your rackets through upgrades whilst slowly taking over your first neighbourhood before moving onto the rest. Surely that's what is needed otherwise what's the point of the upgrades? This is how I'm playing it at the moment. But it is a slow (yet enjoyable) game. You have to wait for funds to accrue and wait for upgrades. I honestly think it could take twenty hours to fully upgrade an entire, singular, neighbourhood.

 

[purience]

There's a fast game and a slow game. Get a reasonable mob together and rush everyone's rackets which leads to victory. If that is the solution then what is the point of all the economical aspects? Or you could gradually improve your rackets through upgrades whilst slowly taking over your first neighbourhood before moving onto the rest. Surely that's what is needed otherwise what's the point of the upgrades? This is how I'm playing it at the moment. But it is a slow (yet enjoyable) game. You have to wait for funds to accrue and wait for upgrades. I honestly think it could take twenty hours to fully upgrade an entire, singular, neighbourhood.

Me too...problem is...Bosses are being wiped out by other bosses...maybe if i knew a boss was gonna get whacked by another, I would whack them 1st...BUT really we have to wait until future content to really have a meaningful deep mafia game

 

[Colonel Bogey]

I now control an entire neighbourhood which is 'bustling' so wanting to upgrade all security to 5 before moving in on another as I'd like to give them a fighting chance against incomers from my wars elsewhere. If I'm going full OCD then I'd like everything to be on 5. But it takes too long and the reward of everyone drinking whiskey doesn't feel that much better than when they drank swill. I'm sure it is but it must be in micro-figures or simply balances out against the other upgrades. That aside, I've played for over 8 hrs today (happy holidays!) so it holds my attention and isn't as terrible as those trashing it claim. It could be improved though and I'm looking forward to it.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

I now control an entire neighbourhood which is 'bustling' so wanting to upgrade all security to 5 before moving in on another as I'd like to give them a fighting chance against incomers from my wars elsewhere. If I'm going full OCD then I'd like everything to be on 5. But it takes too long and the reward of everyone drinking whiskey doesn't feel that much better than when they drank swill. I'm sure it is but it must be in micro-figures or simply balances out against the other upgrades. That aside, I've played for over 8 hrs today (happy holidays!) so it holds my attention and isn't as terrible as those trashing it claim. It could be improved though and I'm looking forward to it.

You identify the strong points of the game, the best part being Chris King's economy. The Music and Ambience entice you and pull you in. The part universally praised for good reason. No one disagrees this is excellent.

It is the other detractors that cause problems.

 

[Colonel Bogey]

You identify the strong points of the game, the best part being Chris King's economy. The Music and Ambience entice you and pull you in. The part universally praised for good reason. No one disagrees this is excellent.

It is the other detractors that cause problems.

I agree. I can play for hours, it's pretty addictive. But it could be MORE addictive. And that strategic choices have an effect and you don't have to wait around if you're looking more at the economy than the combat. I'm sure it'll get sorted. Given I can play 8 hrs solid though means it has legs. But this is Paradox. We want complexity.