Systems Overhauled Mods Thread

[Andrei Untaru]

Paradox should hire you mate.

The things you want to do are groundbreaking to say the least , and could actually make Imperator into a enjoyable and interesting game

 

[Sobisonator]

This is the kind of magic Imperator and all GSGs need!

 

[Idontlovevanilla]

I'll see what I can do; diplomacy stuff is annoying to mod in Imperator (that's why embargoes got delayed) but I do like that idea.

Diplomacy is more hard to change indeed, so I only ask if you can do so for trades (imports/exports)

 

[VineFynn]

Do you anticipate these modules being compatible with better ui?

 

[Ben785]

Do you anticipate these modules being compatible with better ui?

I'm not certain at this time. For the most part, they should be fine, but they won't necessarily match Better UI's art style unless I make a separate version on the mod specifically for Better UI.

Diplomacy is more hard to change indeed, so I only ask if you can do so for trades (imports/exports)

yes, I'll just have to look into how it's coded since it uses some diplomacy features. should be able to do it, even if nothing else just by adding a -1000 to trade acceptance if those conditions aren't met

also, for everyone, here's another screenshot of the taxation UI I've been working on - not fully balanced yet lol

 

[Censor96x]

So I played around a bit with the commerce mod and I think that at the moment the balance is a bit off. Don't get me wrong, the idea is wonderful, but the point is that the vanilla money making process relies heavily on commerce income, which the mod basically completely negates you. Sure you can increase the money you make from trade by building marketplaces, but how are you going to build marketplaces if you don't make any money to begin with? This is especially true for less civilized countries that rely on commerce exports a lot to build up, but is also true for more civilized states. How to solve this problem? I propose to solitions, one better and one less good but simpler. The first is to massively buff taxation income, which in vanilla produces less than half of the national income, while it should be much more, like at least 70/80% for more civilized nations and maybe even 90/95% for less developed countries. This is also historical as commerce income was not as important as taxation in ancient times, maybe with the exeption of small city states. The other simpler solution would be simply to re-add the vanilla trade system and use your mod only as a "bonus" on top of that. I know this would seem like a step backward but might be simpler than the other solution. Anyway keep up with the good work, you have wonderful ideas and you even know how to add them to the game, which is wonderful!

 

[Lulpastoor]

Agree with the post above me, only tested about ten minutes at max speed as Massilia basically to see if the mod worked with 2.0. The problem right now is twofold. You get no income from trade until you build markets, which encourages you to only spam marketplaces in your cities which is counter to good design. It also seems to hinder the ai, I was able to generate twice the amount of money that Carthage was because the ai does not know the value of market places in the new system.

Short term I would just massively decrease the market place importance in translating your commerce value into income, making it a base percentage. The percentage could still be modified by buildings, but there should be a baseline which would solve the three problems of spamming marketplaces, more income for poorer nations and ai not understanding.

More long term you could tie it into the wealth/taxes/governorship system which would work quite nicely I imagine. Which now that I type it out is probably what you are planning.

 

[Lulpastoor]

Unrelated, but have you heard of realistic growth and travel? Its a mod much in the same vein as your collection, main features right now being faster pop growth in provinces with more empty space, a meiou style CE (reducing tax/manpower based on travel time from capital to province via land/sea/river), more realistic food production (food being only generated by pops, not just empty farmland, first pops produce a big surplus, which decreases with each pop as they have to farm more and more marginal farmland), provincial wealth which can increase and decrease based on production/looting, taxation laws, and aministrative capacity being generated by integrated nobles/citizens and demanded by all pops, reducing loyalty in provinces if you cant handle the administrative burden of your expansions.

Point is, the both of you seem to be working in the same direction, making the game less click button get thing and more like a living world with systems you can nudge with cascading effects that (hopefully) go your way. Would love to see what you can do by your powers combined

Steam Workshop::Realistic growth and travel (steamcommunity.com)

 

[Calardaras]

The marketplaces increase income by percentage is a bit OP. I think it would be better if it only determines the income ceiling.
And the Income Efficiency, I think this is a small global modifider in the domain of technology, laws or something else .

 

[Ben785]

Agree with the post above me, only tested about ten minutes at max speed as Massilia basically to see if the mod worked with 2.0. The problem right now is twofold. You get no income from trade until you build markets, which encourages you to only spam marketplaces in your cities which is counter to good design. It also seems to hinder the ai, I was able to generate twice the amount of money that Carthage was because the ai does not know the value of market places in the new system.

Short term I would just massively decrease the market place importance in translating your commerce value into income, making it a base percentage. The percentage could still be modified by buildings, but there should be a baseline which would solve the three problems of spamming marketplaces, more income for poorer nations and ai not understanding.

More long term you could tie it into the wealth/taxes/governorship system which would work quite nicely I imagine. Which now that I type it out is probably what you are planning.

So I played around a bit with the commerce mod and I think that at the moment the balance is a bit off. Don't get me wrong, the idea is wonderful, but the point is that the vanilla money making process relies heavily on commerce income, which the mod basically completely negates you. Sure you can increase the money you make from trade by building marketplaces, but how are you going to build marketplaces if you don't make any money to begin with? This is especially true for less civilized countries that rely on commerce exports a lot to build up, but is also true for more civilized states. How to solve this problem? I propose to solitions, one better and one less good but simpler. The first is to massively buff taxation income, which in vanilla produces less than half of the national income, while it should be much more, like at least 70/80% for more civilized nations and maybe even 90/95% for less developed countries. This is also historical as commerce income was not as important as taxation in ancient times, maybe with the exeption of small city states. The other simpler solution would be simply to re-add the vanilla trade system and use your mod only as a "bonus" on top of that. I know this would seem like a step backward but might be simpler than the other solution. Anyway keep up with the good work, you have wonderful ideas and you even know how to add them to the game, which is wonderful!

Yeah balance issues are definitely a thing. I'll address this in the next patch hopefully.

Unrelated, but have you heard of realistic growth and travel? Its a mod much in the same vein as your collection, main features right now being faster pop growth in provinces with more empty space, a meiou style CE (reducing tax/manpower based on travel time from capital to province via land/sea/river), more realistic food production (food being only generated by pops, not just empty farmland, first pops produce a big surplus, which decreases with each pop as they have to farm more and more marginal farmland), provincial wealth which can increase and decrease based on production/looting, taxation laws, and aministrative capacity being generated by integrated nobles/citizens and demanded by all pops, reducing loyalty in provinces if you cant handle the administrative burden of your expansions.

Point is, the both of you seem to be working in the same direction, making the game less click button get thing and more like a living world with systems you can nudge with cascading effects that (hopefully) go your way. Would love to see what you can do by your powers combined

I hadn't heard of it until today, but that sounds quite interesting! Hopefully we can try and at least make them compatible with each other so that people can use all the features of both.

 

[Lulpastoor]

I hadn't heard of it until today, but that sounds quite interesting! Hopefully we can try and at least make them compatible with each other so that people can use all the features of both.

Good to hear! I posted basically the same thing in reverse in his discord and he was receptive as well. With the recent updates to Imperator and your mods I have high hopes for my future enjoyment of this game. Its going in the right direction, the building blocks seem to be there, it just needs some little nudges in the right direction and it could become a great game.

Another question, do you have any plans regarding levy modding? What bothers me most about the system as it is right now is the fact that it just takes the cultural majority per region, and then applies that template to all integrated culture pops in that region. So for example when I conquered Scythia as Bosporan kingdom, hoping for a Greek infantry core aided by sweet Scythian horses all my Greeks just started riding horses as well (before I even finished integrating them). Asked in the aforementioned discord as well, he said that was hardcoded and would probably be pretty hard to mod, needing events, ui modding etc.

 

[dav77-b]

There is a "travel time and logistic population growth mod" that also aims to dive deeper into simulations. It had also plans for a new tax&economic system.

Maybe you 2 guys could work together? Creating a MEIOU equivalent for IR?

I love your work. I hope you succeed creating an amazing mod.

 

[Ben785]

There is a "travel time and logistic population growth mod" that also aims to dive deeper into simulations. It had also plans for a new tax&economic system.

Maybe you 2 guys could work together? Creating a MEIOU equivalent for IR?

I love your work. I hope you succeed creating an amazing mod.

We actually have been discussing working together, hoping for more information soon. That's the reason for the lack of updates on this thread recently.

 

[Baldamundo]

Do you have any plans to address diplomacy and vassals?

Just for my own personal use, I started looking to see if the game can be tweaked so that the AI makes more use of vassals, but that there are also more risks of vassal rebellions. Wouldn't want to duplicate effort or make something that conflicts however. Haven't got very far though 'cos I'm a total noob to modding https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/vassal-and-diplomacy-rework.1448444/

 

[Ben785]

Do you have any plans to address diplomacy and vassals?

Just for my own personal use, I started looking to see if the game can be tweaked so that the AI makes more use of vassals, but that there are also more risks of vassal rebellions. Wouldn't want to duplicate effort or make something that conflicts however. Haven't got very far though 'cos I'm a total noob to modding https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/vassal-and-diplomacy-rework.1448444/

Yes, I do have a few plans for vassals / diplomacy, though it'll certainly take a while to get to that point. Anything interesting in particular you're planning?

 

[Baldamundo]

Yes, I do have a few plans for vassals / diplomacy, though it'll certainly take a while to get to that point. Anything interesting in particular you're planning?

I'm still getting to grips with the basics of modding to be completely honest.

The basic issue I want to address is that the game tends to have the AI expanding as massive, monolithic blobs, when historically they was extensive use of client states regularly swapping hands.

I go into a bit more detail in the thread, but the obvious first goals would be:

1. have the AI make more use of vassalisation in peace deals
2. make vassals more likely to revolt against their overlord [currently this is mechanically possible for a human controlled vassal, but I think the AI will literally never do it??]
3. rebalance subjects types/diplomatic relation slots so you can have more of them

For 1., I can't work out how to affect the weightings the AI uses to decide its peace terms but I have found where the Aggressive Expansion costs for different options are in defines - so I may see if making vassalisation & liberation cheaper makes a difference.

For 2., I've no idea how to make the AI declare independence wars by itself, so for now what I'm looking at is just doing an event. There's already an event which sometimes fires for low loyalty Tributaries to cease paying tribute, so I'm going to try writing a similar event for other subject types (potentially with more options - let them go, go to war, bribe them, etc).

Ideally you'd want something quite complicated - such that vassals are more likely to revolt en masse, or during a war or civil war - but I'm going to have to start simpler.

I'm also not sure if the AI ever uses diplomatic annexation. In the abstract, it shouldn't be that hard to teach an AI how to do it (the player basically does it by algorithm already), but I've no idea how you'd translate that into Imperator's language.