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Black_Shade

Field Marshal
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Jun 11, 2004
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Playing a game as a machine empire. It's 2224 and I've only managed to get 2 techs done in each catagory... 24 years into the game. I replaced my heavy industry on the capital with a research specialization, and it looks like this.

1746977749388.png


How are you supposed to do anything in the game now when research is this slow? A tech every 10-15 years just doesn't seem right. Especially since I've rebuilt the capital specifically to be tech heavy. I probably even wouldn't have that 2nd tech done if I didn't move the capital away from heavy industry early on in the game.
 
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Well, looks like you could afford to have more nexus districts instead of resource districts on that world. But balance is definitely out of whack right now, so it could be something with Machine Empires, for example.
 
Specialization helps a lot.

You need to take a colony and just make it Calculators up top and Generators on the bottom, then shift a bunch of drones over to that colony.
 
The tech rate in 4.0 is far more exponential than it was in 3.14

You start down in the gutter but once you got your broken synergies online you madly outscale 3.14

The fact that there are even more techs than in 3.14 certainly doesn't help, though. The game needs a culling of the tech tree badly.
 
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You have 9 Planets and are getting 60% of your Research from this world, which is dividing it's Pops into a mix of Research, Alloys, Unity, Minerals, and Energy. Most Researcher Jobs come from the City Districts themselves after you Specialize them. By my count, out of 6500 Pops only 1660 are working Researcher Jobs which are divided into 3 outputs: 420 Physicists, and 620 Society and Engineers, compared to 1800 Mineral or Energy Workers or 600 Fabricators.

This is probably fine for your early Capital, but you should try to get another Colony dedicated to just Research Specialized City/Nexus Districts with at least one Energy(to get the Specialization and Building Slots and/or more to reduce Trade upkeep).
 
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Yup, the problem is the large number of colonies by 2224.

  • Machine colony ships cost the equivalent of 1300 energy, so you've spent 10k energy worth of resources on colony ships. That's the equivalent of 3 T1 techs.
  • Planets come with empire size (both inherently, for the Replicators, and for the base maintenance drones you need to make the colony stable). 9 colonies means 9*~18=162 extra empire size, currently increasing your tech costs by 143/500=28%. And until the initial 200 pops grows into 500, you get zero economic benefit from the planet. In fact....
  • Replicators, planet capitals, the initial pops, and machine assembly plants all burn resources for no immediate economic return. You have 8 developed planets, which means you're burning ~16 alloys on assembly, plus ~45 energy on pops+capitals, plus another 5 energy/1 alloy for every machine assembly plant you've built. Those all produce more pops, but (as above) until you grow more pops than you first invested into the planet, it's of no benefit to you (yet).
You've balanced your economy heavily toward lateral expansion, which is probably a smart move. Investing in future pop growth means a more powerful economy later. But it comes at the cost of having a powerful economy now. Which means your tech production will be low.

For reference, though: you're making 60 alloys per month, ~20 of which go right back into pop assembly. You could roughly double your research production if you had instead put all those pops to work on research and energy to support it, rather than alloys and minerals to support it. Obviously, don't completely nix alloy production (or assembly), but that's roughly the scale of the investment you've made into cranking out colony ships and pops on colonies.
 
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You have 9 Planets and are getting 60% of your Research from this world, which is dividing it's Pops into a mix of Research, Alloys, Unity, Minerals, and Energy. Most Researcher Jobs come from the City Districts themselves after you Specialize them. By my count, out of 6500 Pops only 1660 are working Researcher Jobs which are divided into 3 outputs: 420 Physicists, and 620 Society and Engineers, compared to 1800 Mineral or Energy Workers or 600 Fabricators.

This is probably fine for your early Capital, but you should try to get another Colony dedicated to just Research Specialized City/Nexus Districts with at least one Energy(to get the Specialization and Building Slots and/or to reduce Trade upkeep).
With what pops, though? You basically get nothing out of your colonies for quite a long time, because the pop growth is basically non-existant. But not making the colonies now means you'll never get the pops. I've specced out to max pop growth and build a couple of drone storages on every new colony to try and boost growth, but the average growth is still below 4 and it takes 30 years for them to even hit 1k pop, and about 50 years before the colonies actually make anything.
Yup, the problem is the large number of colonies by 2224.

  • Machine colony ships cost the equivalent of 1300 energy, so you've spent 10k energy worth of resources on colony ships. That's the equivalent of 3 T1 techs.
  • Planets come with empire size (both inherently, for the Replicators, and for the base maintenance drones you need to make the colony stable). 9 colonies means 9*~18=162 extra empire size, currently increasing your tech costs by 143/500=28%. And until the initial 200 pops grows into 500, you get zero economic benefit from the planet. In fact....
  • Replicators, planet capitals, the initial pops, and machine assembly plants all burn resources for no immediate economic return. You have 8 developed planets, which means you're burning ~16 alloys on assembly, plus ~45 energy on pops+capitals, plus another 5 energy/1 alloy for every machine assembly plant you've built. Those all produce more pops, but (as above) until you grow more pops than you first invested into the planet, it's of no benefit to you (yet).
You've balanced your economy heavily toward lateral expansion, which is probably a smart move. Investing in future pop growth means a more powerful economy later. But it comes at the cost of having a powerful economy now. Which means your tech production will be low.

For reference, though: you're making 60 alloys per month, ~20 of which go right back into pop assembly. You could roughly double your research production if you had instead put all those pops to work on research and energy to support it, rather than alloys and minerals to support it. Obviously, don't completely nix alloy production (or assembly), but that's roughly the scale of the investment you've made into cranking out colony ships and pops on colonies.
In the grand scheme of things though, that empire size increase from having 28% increased tech costs is nothing. Not colonizing anything would have netted me a grand total of 0 additional techs. I could have 8 colonies slowly slowly slowly building up pop or I could have 0 additional techs. It's a pretty easy choice here.

As for the alloys, 60 alloys a month is almost nothing. And it's what allows my energy to be net positive, as that alloy production has enabled me to build up to my starbase cap. And all of my starbases save the capital shipyards and the border chokepoint are energy producers. The also AI is insanely aggressive in this patch, you have to keep your fleet built up as much as you can. You'll note that one of the AIs attacked me in a suicidal war, so I've had to rebuild my fleet a few times as they suicide into me over and over. This is already the 2nd war in this game, as one of the other AIs on that side of the map also attacked me around 2015 in yet another suicidal war.

Now, if I didn't need the alloys to not die, I could nuke a couple of those alloy factories on the capital and that would let me transform a couple mineral districts into nexus districts and transit those pops over to tech. Maybe I'd get one additional tech from that. Maybe. But the issue here seems to be tech costs. 140 months to research the lowest tier techs seems... not right.
 
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It starts slower due to a more unstable early economy. Seems like a third of the civics and origins start in massive deficits with wildly unbalanced economies.

It scales insanely well once you start dedicating planets fully to research, better than before due to the incredibly powerful building synergies. Even better, you can specialize your research, so now you can neglect society in favor of the much more aggro technologies.

As always, empire sprawl is NOT actually a serious hindrance. It's annoying early game, but it just means you need a research world every like 10 or so fully developed planets in order to maintain research speed, and most likely you will have more research planets than that, thus meaning you will be able to scale far faster than the penalties (not like they get any worse over time, while there are LOADS of research output modifiers).

If they actually wanted to curb snowballing, technology would need a full rework. Like literally rewritten from scratch. I don't think Paradox is particularly interested in doing that.
 
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1746986298905.png




In the grand scheme of things though, that empire size increase from having 28% increased tech costs is nothing. Not colonizing anything would have netted me a grand total of 0 additional techs. I could have 8 colonies slowly slowly slowly building up pop or I could have 0 additional techs. It's a pretty easy choice here.
In the grand scheme of things, 28% is 28%. Simple arithmetic says that if you hadn't been paying 28% extra for them, you would have finished 7, or possibly 8 (though the way all 3 branches advance/complete simultaneously makes that not accurate, with such a small number of techs).

Keep in mind that the cost you pay for a tech is your empire size increase when you complete it. So if your empire size is low early, but higher by the time you finish your first round of techs, you pay the higher price (not some average).



But let's do a concrete comparison: making 8 colonies vs. just colonizing the guaranteed habitables in the first 6 years of the game.

Let's assume you're expanding at a fairly constant pace (like, a colony ship every 3 years, to hit 8 built by 2224). That means your average colony age is 12 years, your average tech costs over this time were increased by around 14% (this assumes you completed the first set of techs at 0% increased tech cost, then completed the second recently at 28%). And let's assume you migrate zero pops out onto your newly developed colonies for the sake of stability; we act as if colonies take zero pops from the capital.

You also say you build a couple of Drone Storages on every planet: that's another ~1000 minerals per colony, and (average) 2 energy upkeep per month.

You've only gotten 6 techs done (2 techs in each category). T1 techs cost 2000-3000 each, but your average tech increase is 1.14x, so we'll say that's ~15k research.
  • 15k on research
  • 8*(4*200+500)=10k on colony ships
  • 8*1000=8k on drone storage.
  • 8*12*(2*4+1+5+2)=1.5k on assembly/colony upkeep costs just for pop growth (assuming 12 years average colony age).
~35k spent on research and expansion.

By contrast, if you'd just colonized your guaranteed habitables in the first ~6 years (average colony age of 21), and then distributed everything you aren't spending to research:
  • 2*(4*200+500)=2.6k on colony ships
  • 2*1000=2k on Drone Storage (assuming you're sticking to this)
  • 3*21*(2*4+1+5+2)=1k on assembly/colony upkeep costs just for pop growth.
  • Which leaves 29.4k on research, which will be 13% cheaper without the tech cost increase. At 2.5k each, that will get you 11 (almost 12) techs, instead of 6.
So you get double the tech, and you also invest 2/3 as much into assembly (and will have received 2/3 as many pops). So, by this extremely rough estimate, you're cutting your tech in half in order to get 50% more pops (during this particular time).


Going forward, you will have more instantaneous assembly. But at this particular point in time, you've traded the other fruits of your economy (namely, research) for investment into future growth.

And, to repeat, that's probably a smart move. Investing in the future is good. And while research/colonization are both investments, it's easier to catch up on research.

Just be aware that every colony is an investment of resources, upkeep, and empire size that will take 2-3 decades to pay for itself. So don't expect immediate returns when most of what you've done is spam that investment button as often as possible.



As for the alloys, 60 alloys a month is almost nothing. And it's what allows my energy to be net positive, as that alloy production has enabled me to build up to my starbase cap. And all of my starbases save the capital shipyards and the border chokepoint are energy producers. The also AI is insanely aggressive in this patch, you have to keep your fleet built up as much as you can. You'll note that one of the AIs attacked me in a suicidal war, so I've had to rebuild my fleet a few times as they suicide into me over and over. This is already the 2nd war in this game, as one of the other AIs on that side of the map also attacked me around 2015 in yet another suicidal war.

Now, if I didn't need the alloys to not die, I could nuke a couple of those alloy factories on the capital and that would let me transform a couple mineral districts into nexus districts and transit those pops over to tech. Maybe I'd get one additional tech from that. Maybe. But the issue here seems to be tech costs. 140 months to research the lowest tier techs seems... not right.

You've spent over 2000 alloys on colony ships and pop assembly on your brand new colonies. Evidently you don't need the alloys to not die, at least not as much as you think you need it for new colonies.

And 60 alloys per month is most definitely not nothing, for your empire at this time. Again... 60 alloys is roughly the same size as your entire research budget. If you had poured your pops and infrastructure investment into research production instead, you could be making 400 or even 500 research per month now.

Also:
Obviously, don't completely nix alloy production (or assembly), but that's roughly the scale of the investment you've made into cranking out colony ships and pops on colonies.
At no point did I actually recommend you stop making alloys completely. I was explicitly giving it as a point of reference for how much you've invested into things other than research.
 
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With what pops, though?
You have only 1660/6500 Pops working a Job with 3 outputs(1/3 the output of other Specialists per Research type) on a Planet that accounts for 60% of your total Research; and what are the other 8 Planets doing?

You've dedicated all your Pops and Planets to making more Pops and Planets, but you don't know where to get more Pops?
 
You have only 1660/6500 Pops working a Job with 3 outputs(1/3 the output of other Specialists per Research type) on a Planet that accounts for 60% of your total Research; and what are the other 8 Planets doing?
The other 8 planets are doing nothing, they don't have any pops. They are currently employing replicators and nothing else.
You've dedicated all your Pops and Planets to making more Pops and Planets, but you don't know where to get more Pops?
They don't exist. I've taken mass produced and rapid replication, but each tick will only get you 2-3 pop growth per month per planet, despite the tooltip saying an average of 5-6. It will take these planets until about 2050 to actually make any resources at all, they simply don't grow pops fast enough to contribute anything.
 
The other 8 planets are doing nothing, they don't have any pops. They are currently employing replicators and nothing else.

They don't exist. I've taken mass produced and rapid replication, but each tick will only get you 2-3 pop growth per month per planet, despite the tooltip saying an average of 5-6. It will take these planets until about 2050 to actually make any resources at all, they simply don't grow pops fast enough to contribute anything.
I'm playing Organics so my info may be of little use, but most of my Growth is on Planets with more than 1000 Pops, particularly on my Capital. Civilians accumulate slowly, then disperse to my Colonies.

I don't play Robots, but does your -1200 Robot Amenities and 48% Stability affect your Growth? I can't tell anything about Growth really from the Management Page on my Homeworld.

What is your Capital's Growth? Does it have a bunch of Menial Drones that you can Resettle or employ as Researchers?

Immediately off the top of my head, you could swap 2 Mining Districts for City/Nexus Districts on your Capital and gain 300 more Researchers for only ~800 Minerals.
 
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I don't play Robots, but does your -1200 Robot Ameneties and 48% Stability affect your Growth? I can't tell anything about Growth really from the Management Page on my Homeworld.
Nope, stability doesn't impact growth. Habitability does, but only indirectly: it decreases job efficiency, which reduces the amount of assembly your Replicators make per pop.
 
If they actually wanted to curb snowballing, technology would need a full rework. Like literally rewritten from scratch. I don't think Paradox is particularly interested in doing that.
Oh god, don't give 'em any ideas
 
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Oh god, don't give 'em any ideas
Agreed. Every major rework breaks the game over its knee and takes months or years to return to the previous level of functioning.

The tech tree isn't perfect but it works and messing with it is a really quick way of making it stop working.
 
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If you think you don't get techs fast enough:
1. Pick the civil education civic
2. Make 3 state academy on your capital
3. Upgrade them
4. Enjoy insane amounts of tech
5. Win the game.
 
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If you think you don't get techs fast enough:
1. Pick the civil education civic
2. Make 3 state academy on your capital
3. Upgrade them
4. Enjoy insane amounts of tech
5. Win the game.
Great for the early game, but not nearly as efficient as actual research. (For best results, pair with Parliamentary System + Utopian Abundance + Seasonal Dormancy)
 
I will definitely be fooling around with the tech slider once the patches are finished because it is WAAAYYY too slow at the moment. I have resorted to building at least one research zone on every planet except my industrial world.
 
The tech rate in 4.0 is far more exponential than it was in 3.14

You start down in the gutter but once you got your broken synergies online you madly outscale 3.14

The fact that there are even more techs than in 3.14 certainly doesn't help, though. The game needs a culling of the tech tree badly.

Yeah, it’s very wonky honestly; I almost feel whiplash sometimes. I’ll go from feeling like I’m accomplishing nothing early game to suddenly “holy S, I’m spitting out research nonstop and just reached mega engineering!”

The pop growth system’s change from per planet to population ON a planet plays a huge role in this as well IMO, as early growth feels kneecapped while late growth feels unbounded.
 
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