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Originally posted by StephenT
Agreed in general about the difference between German and British battleships - the German "basic dreadnoughts" (like the Kaiser and Konig classes) had 350mm belt armour - compare British 250mm - but their deck armour was only 30mm (British 75mm). They did have 12" guns, though, the same as the British.

I think it's probably fair to take Britain as the basic standard of comparison, since they built by far the largest number of such ships in this era (including many warships sold to foreign powers), and give variant techs to show the German alternative method.

Stephen, you are quite right that about using British as the benchmark, I was merely pointing out that there were significant differences in the battleship designs of the two major players in the naval game which I hoped would be reflected in the mechanics. A tech option seems the best solution.

However, the Kaiser and Konig were the two newest dreadnought designs in the High Seas Fleet laid down 1911(except baden & Bayern, which never saw action). They did use 12" but at that time Britain was laying down KGVs and Orions with 13.5". A year later they laid down the fast division with 15".

On the cruisers I completely agree. We cannot just ignore them like you say, and they did fight in a number of actions. They did, however, take a large portion of the casualties. Off the top of my head there is Hogue, Aboukir, Cressey, Black Prince, Warrior, defence, Monmouth, and the German Scharnhorst and Gneisenau . All sunk with heavy loss of life. They also had much larger crews than light cruisers, perhaps +1MP costs to make them even less useful? I do think they should have a very poor surface defence on account of thier poor record.

On the subject of the armoured cruisers, large numbers of them were not in commission when the war broke out, and head to be brought up to strength with reservists and cadets. Could we deploy them damaged, say 60-80% to account for the fact that they need time to train and be brought up to strength?

In fact, we could put all the ships at 95% for this reason on day one of the war?
 
A first draft of the naval tech tree:

Code:
Naval tech tree (9 levels, 73 techs) ########## pre-req ############### benefit

> 6000 - Early Century Naval Innovations	-			<
6001 - Naval Expansion Engine			?			?
6002 - Naval Steel Armor			?			?
6003 - Naval Breach-Loader Turret		?			?
6004 - Barbette Turret				6003			?
6005 - Naval Steam Torpedo			?			?
6006 - Torpedo Boat Hull			?			?
6007 - Torpedo Boat Destroyer			6005 6006		act+destroyer1
6008 - Transport				?			act+transport1
> 6100 - Early Century Warship Design		-			<
6101 - Naval Multiple Expansion Engine		6001			?
6102 - Naval Krupp Armor			6002			?
6103 - Shell Hoist				?			?
6104 - Battleship Belt Armor 175mm+		6102			?
6105 - Battleship Deck Armor 50mm+		6102			?
6106 - Cruiser Deck Armor 20mm+			6102			?
6107 - Pre-Dreadnought Hull			6104 6105		?
6108 - Old Cruiser Hull				6106			?
6109 - Pre-Dreadnought				6101 6107 14309		act+battleship0
6110 - Old Cruiser				6101 6108 14206		act+cruiser0
> 6200 - Basic Naval Armor and Armament		-			<
6201 - Basic Naval Petrol Torpedo		6005			?
6202 - Basic Fire-Control System		?			?
6203 - Torpedo Net				?			?
6204 - Naval Harvey Steel			6102			?
6205 - Battleship Belt Armor 250mm+		6104 6204		?
6206 - Cruiser Belt Armor 75mm+			6204			?
6207 - Battleship Deck Armor 75mm+		6105 6204		?
6208 - Cruiser Deck Armor 30mm+			6106 6204		?
6209 - Closed Turret				6004			?
> 6300 - Basic Warship Design			-			<
6301 - Basic Naval Turbine Engine		6101			?
6302 - Basic Dreadnought Hull			6107 6205 6207 6209	?
6303 - Light Cruiser Hull			6108 6208 6209		?
6304 - Basic Destroyer Hull			6006 6204		?
6305 - Basic Dreadnought			6301 6302 14309		act+battleship1
6306 - Light Cruiser				6301 6303 14102		act+cruiser1
6307 - Basic Destroyer				6201 6301 6304		act+destroyer2
> 6400 - Specialized Warship Development	-			<
6401 - Improved Naval Turbine Engine		6301			?
6402 - Basic Naval Wireless Services		3404			?
6403 - Cruiser Belt Armor 150mm+		6206			?
6404 - Battlecruiser Hull			6207 6209 6302 6401	?
6405 - Armored Cruiser Hull			6208 6209 6303 6403	?
6406 - Battlecruiser				6401 6404 14309		act+battleship2
6407 - Armored Cruiser				6401 6405 14207		act+cruiser2
6408 - Armored Transport			6008			act+transport2
> 6500 - Improved Naval Armor and Armament	-			<
6501 - Improved Naval Petrol Torpedo		6201			?
6502 - Basic Hydrophone				?			?
6503 - Split Compartment Hull			?			?
6504 - Centerline Armament			6209			?
6505 - Improved Fire-Control System		6202			?
6506 - Battleship Belt Armor 300mm+		6205			?
6507 - Battleship Deck Armor 100mm+		6207			?
6508 - Cruiser Deck Armor 40mm+			6208			?
> 6600 - Improved Warship Design		-			<
6601 - Advanced Naval Turbine Engine		6401			?
6602 - Improved Dreadnought Hull		6302 6503 6506 6507	?
6603 - Improved Cruiser and Carrier Hull	6206 6405 6503 6508	?
6604 - Improved Destroyer Hull			6304 6503		?
6605 - Improved Dreadnought			6601 6602 14405		act+battleship3
6606 - Improved Cruiser				6601 6603 14206		act+cruiser3
6607 - Improved Destroyer			6501 6601 6604		act+destroyer3
6608 - Seaplane Carrier				6601 6603 air?		act+carrier0
> 6700 - Advanced Naval Armor and Armament	-			<
6701 - Improved Hydrophone			6502			?
6702 - Sonar System				6701			?
6703 - Advanced Fire-Control System		6505			?
6704 - Improved Naval Wireless Services		3605 6402		?
6705 - Battleship Belt Armor 350mm+		6506			?
6706 - Battleship Deck Armor 150mm+		6507			?
6707 - Cruiser Deck Armor 50mm+			6508			?
> 6800 - Advanced Warship Design		-			<
6801 - Magazine Explosion Prevention		6503			?
6802 - Advanced Dreadnought Hull		6602 6705 6706 6801	?
6803 - Advanced Cruiser and Carrier Hull	6603 6706 6801		?
6804 - Advanced Destroyer Hull			6604 6801		?
6805 - Advanced Dreadnought			6601 6802 14603		act+battleship4
6806 - Advanced Cruiser				6601 6803 14027		act+cruiser4
6807 - Advanced Destroyer			6601 6702 6804		act+destroyer4
6808 - Basic Carrier				6601 6803 air?		act+carrier1

Naval Gun Techs are:

14102 - Naval Gun 100mm+
14206 - Naval Gun 150mm+
14207 - Naval Gun 200mm+
14307 - Naval Gun 250mm+
14309 - Naval Gun 300mm+
14405 - Naval Gun 350mm+
14603 - Naval Gun 400mm+

I've removed all "Modern" models, the tech tree would be too long compared to all other trees if I would add them. 72 techs are alot already compared to all other trees that have around 50 techs.

I also modified StephenT's info a little bit to better correspond to the tree. Maybe not 100% realistic, but a lot easier to understand.

Is there anything really important missing? Or anything that is seriously wrong?

/Johan
 
Just two suggestions:

I'd move all the early cruiser techs back in time - so "old cruiser" comes in the 6000s, "light cruiser" in the 6100s, and "armoured cruiser" in the 6200s. All these ships were much earlier (and easier to build) than dreadnoughts and battlecruisers.

You might want to have "all-big-gun doctrine" as a prerequisite for dreadnoughts - this could be either a naval tech or a naval doctrine. It would make researching dreadnoughts just a little bit harder...
 
Hmm... It would be pretty hard to make it exactly the way you want (considering pre-reqs and all), but my suggestion would be to let Old Cruiser be available without any research (as Torpedo Boats and Merchantmen), and replace Old Cruiser with Light Cruiser (moving it to 6000 from 6100), and then replace Light Cruiser with Armored Cruiser (moving it to 6300 from 6400). Also, the different steps isn't always necessary on the same period of the war, i.e., a smaller country could chose to research only the cheaper, less time consuming, cruiser techs without ever researching battleship techs.

I know it might not be the very best solution, but it is a solution that gives the tech tree some consistency.

Yeah, all-big-gun doctrine sounds like a doctrine to me. :D ;)

/Johan
 
Originally posted by Allenby
what can we expect in the Naval Warfare Doctrines tech tree? Crossing the T and Mahanism maybe.

Now the Kaiser was a a big fan of Mahan, even though he was an American...

Is anyone working on the Naval Warfare doctrines or can I stick my hat in the ring?

I would suggest the 'All Big Gun ship' should be a pre-requisite for dreadnoughts.

By the way, the first widely used torpedo was the Whitehead Torpedo used by all the major navies.
 
Well, I've taken the responsibility to work on all tech trees, but since I'm not very good at the naval aspect of the war (or any war), I would love to get help from anyone. You could do a sketch (like the one I've done above), and then I'll make the final adjustments if needed. I would like the naval doctrine tech tree to be six levels, including around 30-40 techs/doctrines/tactics. :)

/Johan
 
Don't forget the advent of the steam turbine.

For all the Dreadnought's big guns, it would have been a monster with short legs, and slow speed without its steam turbine engine, which allowed it to reach an unprecedented 21-knots in speed.
 
Since the bayonet was invented in around 1680, I suspect every country will already have researched it by 1914...

However, there were quite a few innovations in hand-to-hand combat in the war (especially hand grenades, but also things like trench clubs) which would be worth a SA bonus.
 
I don't know if all the hand-to-hand combat innovations would be worth a +1 to SA. However if there were say two or three innovations, you could get a +1 SA after you researched all of them.

EX) Infantry Techs:
.
.
.
Hand-to-Hand:
Hand-to-Hand Combat Training (Great Powers start with this.)
Bayonets (Every great power and many minor ones would
have this already.)
Trench Clubs
Advanced hand-to-hand combat training (+1 SA)



Well that is my thoughts on the matter.
 
Originally posted by shdwknightx
I don't know if all the hand-to-hand combat innovations would be worth a +1 to SA. However if there were say two or three innovations, you could get a +1 SA after you researched all of them.

EX) Infantry Techs:
.
.
.
Hand-to-Hand:
Hand-to-Hand Combat Training (Great Powers start with this.)
Bayonets (Every great power and many minor ones would
have this already.)
Trench Clubs
Advanced hand-to-hand combat training (+1 SA)



Well that is my thoughts on the matter.

The Bayonet was the weapon in offensive. Rifle bullets are of limited use in the close quarters of a trench. It was also widely believed that getting in close was about morale. I would give hand-to-hand training bonus to ORG. At least that was the thinking of the day.

In with that stuff we have SMGs, hand granades, trench clubs, picks, shovels and body armour. All in the category of assault weapons. Even if the weapons were not new the methods of employing them were.
 
Re: gratulations!!!!

Originally posted by niise
gratulations!!!!Johan Elisson
you have started the longest thread in the HoI forum, I think.
:D

wow that is off topic and the leaders thread is longer too also the origanal tgw thread was much much longer
 
But this thread could be longer if we kept posting about how this isn't the longest thread in the TGW section, thus making it the longest thread in the TGW section, making the previous longest thread in the TGW section the not-so-longest thread in the TGW section...
 
I think it may be sensible to begin to consider the technological status of various countries, so I've decided to draft a banding system whereby the various nations are grouped hierarchially with those in band one being techologically better off at the beginning of the game, with those at the bottom at near tribal levels.

Band 1
British Empire
France
Germany
USA

Band 2
Austria-Hungary
Italy
Japan
Russia

Band 3
Belgium
Bulgaria
Montenegro
Netherlands
Ottoman Empire
Portugal
Romania
Serbia
Spain
Sweden

Band 4
Argentina
Brazil
Denmark
Finland
Greece
Norway
Switzerland

Band 5
Albania
Bolivia
Chile
China
Colombia
Ecuador
Luxemburg
Mexico
Paraguay
Peru
Uruguay
Venezuela

Band 6
Costa Rica
Cuba
El Salvador
Ethiopia
Guatemala
Honduras
Nicaragua
Panama
Persia
Siam

Band 7
Afghanistan
Bhutan
Dominican Republic
Haiti
Hejaz
Jebel Shammar
Liberia
Mongolia
Nejd
Nepal
Oman
Revolutionary Mexico
Sanusia
Tibet
Yemen

People might want to debate the wisdom of putting certain countries at certain stages of technological development.