Tech

unmerged(10168) · Dec 22, 2003

Flash protection

I don't hear much about the smaller cruisers (CA and smaller I mean) having that problem. The HMS Defense only bought it by blundering too close to the German battleships (that will REALLY wreck your day!) and most other big cruisers succumbed well (I mean they didn't blow up like the BCs) to shellfire (ie sank after a pummelling). I think the big problem was the big BCs and their big guns needed big shells, much bigger than the CA and smaller types as they were designed to fight battle-line actions (well BCs weren't really meant for that but then...) while C's were recce/scout and commerce raiders. A hit especially on poorly flash protected magazines would be catastrophic.

Best regards,
Richmond

StephenT · Dec 22, 2003

Submarine techs

Code:

5000 Submarine Innovation
	5001 Single Hull
	5002 Basic Ballast Tanks
	5003 Submarine Steam Engine
	5004 Horizontal Propeller
	5005 Basic Steam Torpedoes
	5006 Early Submarine (**activate model 0**)
5100 Early Submarine Technology
	5101 Basic Pressure Hull
	5102 Small Submarine Hull
	5103 Internal Ballast Tanks
	5104 Basic Conning Tower
	5105 Submarine Petrol Engine
5200 Basic Submarine Construction
	5201 Horizontal Rudder
	5202 Basic Periscope
	5203 Basic Torpedo Tubes
	5204 Submarine Testing
	5205 Short-Range Coastal Submarine (**activate model 1**)
	5206 Submarine Freighter
5300 Basic Submarine Equipment
	5301 Deck Gun 50mm+
	5302 Improved Steam Torpedoes
	5303 Coastal Mines
	5304 Pressure Hull Testing
	5305 Nautical Gyrocompass
5400 Fuel-Driven Torpedoes
	5401 Torpedo Testing
	5402 Alcohol Torpedoes
	5403 Basic Petrol Torpedoes
5500 Improved Submarine Construction
	5501 Improved Pressure Hull
	5502 Medium Submarine Hull
	5503 Submarine Diesel Engine
	5504 Improved Periscope
	5505 Improved Torpedo Tubes
	5506 Long-Range Coastal Submarine (**activate model 2**)
5600 Improved Submarine Equipment
	5601 Deck Gun 70mm+
	5602 Improved Petrol Torpedoes
	5603 Low Frequency Wireless Sets
	5604 Recon and Navigation Services
	5605 Submarine Diesel Generator
5700 Advanced Submarine Construction
	5701 Advanced Pressure Hull
	5702 Large Submarine Hull
	5703 Submarine Electric Engine
	5704 Advanced Periscope
	5705 Advanced Torpedo Tubes
	5706 Open Seas Submarine (**activate model 3**)
5800 Advanced Submarine Equipment
	5801 Deck Gun 100mm+
	5802 Advanced Petrol Torpedoes
	5803 High Frequency Wireless Sets
	5804 Open Seas Mines

Most countries get nothing.
Japan: 5000
Austria-Hungary, France, Italy: 5000 5001 5002 5003 5004 5005 5006 5100
Germany: 5000 5001 5002 5003 5004 5005 5006 5100 5101 5102 5103 5104 5105 5200
Britain, USA, Russia, Sweden, Denmark: 5000 5001 5002 5003 5004 5005 5006 5100 5101 5102 5103 5104 5105 5200 5201 5202 5203 5204 5205

I'm sure there was a good reason for making the Danish and Swedish submarine flotillas model 1 instead of model 0

Incidentally, Germany was putting its naval resources into battleships, not submarines, until war actually broke out.

StephenT · Dec 23, 2003

Naval techs, now. I'm actually rather concerned by this, because Britain has to be given virtually the entire tech tree already researched in 1914, to allow her to have the Queen Elizabeth class battleships under construction. I wonder if we can add some more tech levels at the top, or move the dreadnought techs further down the tree?

Tech 6008 should activate the transport, not introduce model 1, and 6408 should increase transport organisation or give some kind of bonus to amphibious landings - there are no models of transport.

Tech 6801 really shouldn't be a pre-requisite for building advanced battleships, because as things stand Britain must have this tech at the start, which is grossly unhistorical

Also, the placement of the cruisers seems out of line - armoured cruisers were made obsolete by battlecruisers, so they shouldn't both be level 5 techs!
I suggest moving 6106 6108 6110 down to the 6000s, 6303 6306 down to the 6100s (after the cruiser armour techs) and 6403 6405 6407 down to the 6200s. We'll need to make sure all the prerequisites are moved as well.

Code:

6000 Early Century Naval Innovations
	6001 Naval Expansion Engine
	6002 Naval Steel Armour
	6003 Naval Breech-Loader Turret
	6004 Barbette Turret
	6005 Naval Steam Torpedo
	6006 Torpedo Boat Destroyer Hull
	6007 Torpedo Boat Destroyer (**activate destroyer/1**)
	6008 Transport (**activate transports/1**)
6100 Early Century Warship Design
	6101 Naval Multiple Expansion Engine
	6102 Naval Krupp Armour
	6103 Shell Hoist
	6104 Battleship Belt Armor 175mm+
	6105 Battleship Deck Armor 50mm+
	6106 Cruiser Deck Armor 20mm+
	6107 Pre-Dreadnought Hull
	6108 Protected Cruiser Hull
	6109 Pre-Dreadnought  (**activate battleship/0**)
	6110 Protected Cruiser (**activate cruiser/0**)
6200 Basic Naval Armour and Armament
	6201 Basic Naval Petrol Torpedo
	6202 Basic Fire-Control System
	6203 Torpedo Net
	6204 Naval Harvey Steel
	6205 Battleship Belt Armor 250mm+
	6206 Cruiser Belt Armor 75mm+
	6207 Battleship Deck Armor 75mm+
	6208 Cruiser Deck Armor 30mm+
	6209 Closed Turret
6300 Basic Warship Design
	6301 Basic Naval Turbine Engine
	6302 Basic Dreadnought Hull
	6303 Light Cruiser Hull
	6304 Basic Destroyer Hull
	6305 Basic Dreadnought (**activate battleship/1**)
	6306 Light Cruiser (**activate cruiser/1**)
	6307 Basic Destroyer (**activate destroyer/2**)
6400 Specialised Warship Development
	6401 Improved Naval Turbine Engine
	6402 Basic Naval Wireless Services
	6403 Cruiser Belt Armor 150mm+
	6404 Battlecruiser Hull
	6405 Armoured Cruiser Hull
	6406 Battlecruiser (**activate battleship/2**)
	6407 Armoured Cruiser  (**activate cruiser/2**)
	6408 Armoured Transport  (**activate transports/2**)
6500 Improved Naval Armour and Armament
	6501 Improved Naval Petrol Torpedo
	6502 Basic Hydrophone
	6503 Split Compartment Hull
	6504 Centreline Armament
	6505 Improved Fire-Control System
	6506 Battleship Belt Armor 300mm+
	6507 Battleship Deck Armor 100mm+
	6508 Cruiser Deck Armor 40mm+
6600 Improved Warship Design
	6601 Advanced Naval Turbine Engine
	6602 Improved Dreadnought Hull
	6603 Improved Cruiser and Carrier Hull
	6604 Improved Destroyer Hull
	6605 Improved Dreadnought (**activate battleship/3**)
	6606 Improved Cruiser (**activate cruiser/3**)
	6607 Improved Destroyer (**activate destroyer/3**)
	6608 Seaplane Carrier  (**activate carrier/0**)
6700 Advanced Naval Armour and Armament
	6701 Improved Hydrophone
	6702 Sonar System
	6703 Advanced Fire-Control System
	6704 Improved Naval Wireless Services
	6705 Battleship Belt Armor 350mm+
	6706 Battleship Deck Armor 150mm+
	6707 Cruiser Deck Armor 50mm+
	6708 Basic Anti-Air Armament
6800 Advanced Warship Design
	6801 Magazine Explosion Prevention
	6802 Advanced Dreadnought Hull
	6803 Advanced Cruiser and Carrier Hull
	6804 Advanced Destroyer Hull
	6805 Advanced Dreadnought (**activate battleship/4**)
	6806 Advanced Cruiser (**activate cruiser/4**)
	6807 Advanced Destroyer  (**activate destroyer/3**)
	6808 Basic Carrier  (**activate carrier/1**)
	6809 Shipboard Aircraft
	6810 Advanced AA Guns

Tech assignments: I'll use the current numbers for now, so these may change if we agree on the alterations I suggested.

All except Band 7, unless noted below: 6000 6001 6008
Portugal, Rumania, Bulgaria, Mexico, Revolutionary Mexico, Colombia, Siam: 6000 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6100 6101 6102 6103 6106 6108 6110

China, Peru: 6000 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6100 6101 6102 6103 6106 6108 6110 6200 6201 6202 6208 6209 6300 6301 6303 6306

Denmark, Norway: 6000 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6100 6101 6102 6103 6106 6108 6110 6200 6201 6202 6206 6208 6209 6300 6301 6303 6306 6400 6401 6403 6405 6407

Turkey, Greece, Netherlands, Sweden: 6000 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6100 6101 6102 6103 6104 6105 6106 6107 6108 6109 6110 6200 6201 6202 6206 6208 6209 6300 6301 6303 6306 6400 6401 6403 6405 6407

Spain, Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Italy: 6000 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6100 6101 6102 6103 6104 6105 6106 6107 6108 6109 6110 6200 6201 6202 6203 6204 6205 6206 6207 6208 6209 6300 6301 6302 6303 6305 6306 6400 6401 6403 6405 6407

Russia, Austria-Hungary: 6000 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6100 6101 6102 6103 6104 6105 6106 6107 6108 6109 6110 6200 6201 6202 6203 6204 6205 6206 6207 6208 6209 6300 6301 6302 6303 6304 6305 6306 6307 6400 6401 6403 6405 6407

Japan, USA, France, Germany: 6000 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6100 6101 6102 6103 6104 6105 6106 6107 6108 6109 6110 6200 6201 6202 6203 6204 6205 6206 6207 6208 6209 6300 6301 6302 6303 6304 6305 6306 6307 6400 6401 6402 6403 6404 6405 6406 6407 6500 6503 6504 6505 6506 6507 6600 6601 6602 6605

Britain: 6000 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6100 6101 6102 6103 6104 6105 6106 6107 6108 6109 6110 6200 6201 6202 6203 6204 6205 6206 6207 6208 6209 6300 6301 6302 6303 6304 6305 6306 6307 6400 6401 6402 6403 6404 6405 6406 6407 6500 6503 6504 6505 6506 6507 6600 6601 6602 6605 6700 6705 6706 6800 6801 6802 6805

StephenT · Dec 23, 2003

Naval Doctrines

Code:

13000 Early Naval Tactics
	13001 Tsushima Analysis
	13002 Submarine Crew Training
	13003 Anti-Submarine Warfare
	13004 Modern Blockade
	13005 All-Big-Gun Doctrine
	13006 Firepower vs. Armour
	13007 Armour vs. Firepower
	13008 Dreadnought Doctrine
	13009 Mahan Doctrine
13100 Basic Naval Development
	13101 Corbett Doctrine
	13102 Blockade Runner
	13103 Commerce Raiding
	13104 Submarine-Naval Coordination
	13105 Scientific Ballistics
	13106 Marine Troop Tactics
13200 Navy Blockade Tactics
	13201 Distant Blockade
	13202 Blacklisting Blockade
	13203 Airborne Observation
	13204 Modern Naval Logistics
	13205 Big Fleet Engagement Analysis
13300 Improved Naval Development
	13301 Unrestricted Submarine Warfare
	13302 Naval Invasion Tactics
	13303 Mine Barrages
	13304 Auxiliary Cruiser Tactics
	13305 Naval Intelligence
13400 Naval Arms Coordination Tactics
	13401 Airship-Naval Coordination
	13402 Naval Statistical Analysis
	13403 Convoy Organization
	13404 Specialist Anti-Submarine Craft
	13405 Standardised Ship Construction
	13406 Naval Aviation
13500 Advanced Naval Development
	13501 Amphibious Landings

Unless noted: Nothing
Portugal, Rumania, Bulgaria, Mexico, Revolutionary Mexico, Colombia, Siam, China, Peru, Norway: 13000
Turkey, Greece, Netherlands: 13000 13001 13005
Sweden, Denmark: 13000 13001 13002 13005
Spain, Argentina, Brazil, Chile: 13000 13001 13005 13008
Italy, Russia, Austria-Hungary: 13000 13001 13002 13005 13008 13009
France, Germany, USA, Britain: 13000 13001 13002 13005 13008 13009 13100 13105
France also gets 13103. Britain also gets 13004.

Allenby · Dec 23, 2003

Thanks Stephen - looks like Naval techs need to be fixed pretty quickly (although not before tomorrow I fear).

Apart from your suggested amendment, perhaps another section of tech advances should be placed at the end? Perhaps including 'Advanced Battlecruisers' (like the Hood) or maybe even Large Light Cruisers like the Furious, and another type of Dreadnought - something like the Rodney?

StephenT · Dec 23, 2003

OK, here's the techs as posted earlier, broken down into countries, all ready to be cut and pasted into the country.inc files by whoever's got the final versions of these now!
(Hopefully I haven't left out any brackets

)

######## Afghanistan, Bhutan, Dominican Rep, Ethiopia, Haiti, Hejaz, Jebel S., Liberia, Mongolia, Nejd, Nepal, Oman, Sanusia, Tibet, Yemen (7) ###############

techlevels = { 1000 }
techapps = { }

######## Costa Rica, Cuba, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Panama, Persia (6) #################

techlevels = { 1000 6000 11000 }
techapps = { 1001 1002 6001 6008 }

######## Siam (6) #####################################

techlevels = { 1000 6000 6100 11000 13000 }
techapps = { 1001 1002 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6101 6102 6103 6106 6108 6110 }

######## China (6) #####################################

techlevels = { 1000 6000 6100 6200 6300 11000 13000 }
techapps = { 1001 1002 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6101 6102 6103 6106 6108 6110 6201 6202 6208 6209 6301 6303 6306 }

######## Albania, Bolivia, Ecuador, Luxembourg, Montenegro, Paraguay, Uruguay, Venezuala (5) ####################

techlevels = {
1000 2000 3000 6000 11000 14000
}
techapps = {
1001 1002 1003 1007 6001 6008 11001 11002
}

######## Mexico, Rev. Mexico, Colombia (5) #####################################

techlevels = {
1000 2000 3000 6000 6100 11000 13000 14000
}
techapps = {
1001 1002 1003 1007 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6101 6102 6103 6106 6108 6110 11001 11002
}

######## Peru (5) #####################################

techlevels = {
1000 2000 3000 6000 6100 6200 6300 11000 13000 14000
}
techapps = {
1001 1002 1003 1007 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6101 6102 6103 6106 6108 6110 6201 6202 6208 6209 6301 6303 6306 11001 11002
}

######## Chile (5) #####################################

techlevels = {
1000 2000 3000 6000 6100 6200 6300 6400 11000 13000 14000
}
techapps = {
1001 1002 1003 1007 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6101 6102 6103 6104 6105 6106 6107 6108 6109 6110 6201 6202 6203 6204 6205 6206 6207 6208 6209 6301 6302 6303 6305 6306 6401 6403 6405 6407 11001 11002 13001 13005 13008
}

######## Serbia, Switzerland (4) #####################################

techlevels = {
1000 1100 2000 3000 4000 6000 7000 9000 10000 11000 14000
}
techapps = {
1001 1002 1003 1006 1007 2001 2002 3001 3003 3004 6001 6008 7001 11001 11002 11004 11006 11007 14001 14002 14004 14005
}

######## Greece (4) #####################################

techlevels = {
1000 1100 2000 3000 4000 6000 6100 6200 6300 6400 7000 9000 10000 11000 13000 14000
}
techapps = {
1001 1002 1003 1006 1007 2001 2002 3001 3003 3004 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6101 6102 6103 6104 6105 6106 6107 6108 6109 6110 6201 6202 6206 6208 6209 6301 6303 6306 6401 6403 6405 6407 7001 11001 11002 11004 11006 11007 13001 13005 14001 14002 14004 14005
}

######## Norway (4) #####################################

techlevels = {
1000 1100 2000 3000 4000 6000 6100 6200 6300 6400 7000 9000 10000 11000 13000 14000
}
techapps = {
1001 1002 1003 1006 1007 2001 2002 3001 3003 3004 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6101 6102 6103 6106 6108 6110 6201 6202 6206 6208 6209 6301 6303 6306 6401 6403 6405 6407 7001 11001 11002 11004 11006 11007 14001 14002 14004 14005
}

######## Turkey (4) #####################################

techlevels = {
1000 1100 2000 3000 4000 6000 6100 6200 6300 6400 7000 9000 10000 11000 12000 12100 13000 14000
}
techapps = {
1001 1002 1003 1006 1007 2001 2002 3001 3003 3004 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6101 6102 6103 6104 6105 6106 6107 6108 6109 6110 6201 6202 6206 6208 6209 6301 6303 6306 6401 6403 6405 6407 7001 11001 11002 11004 11006 11007 12001 13001 13005 14001 14002 14004 14005
}

######## Argentina, Brazil (3) #####################################

techlevels = {
1000 1100 2000 3000 3100 3200 4000 6000 6100 6200 6300 6400 7000 9000 10000 11000 11100 13000 14000 14100
}
techapps = {
1001 1002 1003 1005 1006 1007 1101 2001 2002 2003 3001 3002 3003 3004 3005 3101 3102 3103 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6101 6102 6103 6104 6105 6106 6107 6108 6109 6110 6201 6202 6203 6204 6205 6206 6207 6208 6209 6301 6302 6303 6305 6306 6401 6403 6405 6407 7001 9001 9002 9003 10001 10002 10003 10004 10005 10006 11001 11002 11003 11004 11005 11006 11007 13001 13005 13008 14001 14002 14003 14004 14005 14006 14101 14102
}

######## Sweden (3) #####################################

techlevels = {
1000 1100 2000 3000 3100 3200 4000 5000 5100 5200 6000 6100 6200 6300 6400 7000 9000 10000 11000 11100 13000 14000 14100
}
techapps = {
1001 1002 1003 1005 1006 1007 1101 2001 2002 2003 3001 3002 3003 3004 3005 3101 3102 3103 5001 5002 5003 5004 5005 5006 5101 5102 5103 5104 5105 5201 5202 5203 5204 5205 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6101 6102 6103 6104 6105 6106 6107 6108 6109 6110 6201 6202 6206 6208 6209 6301 6303 6306 6401 6403 6405 6407 7001 9001 9002 9003 10001 10002 10003 10004 10005 10006 11001 11002 11003 11004 11005 11006 11007 13001 13002 13005 14001 14002 14003 14004 14005 14006 14101 14102
}

######## Denmark (3) #####################################

techlevels = {
1000 1100 2000 3000 3100 3200 4000 5000 5100 5200 6000 6100 6200 6300 6400 7000 9000 10000 11000 11100 13000 14000 14100
}
techapps = {
1001 1002 1003 1005 1006 1007 1101 2001 2002 2003 3001 3002 3003 3004 3005 3101 3102 3103 5001 5002 5003 5004 5005 5006 5101 5102 5103 5104 5105 5201 5202 5203 5204 5205 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6101 6102 6103 6106 6108 6110 6201 6202 6206 6208 6209 6301 6303 6306 6401 6403 6405 6407 7001 9001 9002 9003 10001 10002 10003 10004 10005 10006 11001 11002 11003 11004 11005 11006 11007 13001 13002 13005 14001 14002 14003 14004 14005 14006 14101 14102
}

######## Spain (3) #####################################

techlevels = {
1000 1100 2000 3000 3100 3200 4000 6000 6100 6200 6300 6400 7000 9000 10000 11000 11100 13000 14000 14100
}
techapps = {
1001 1002 1003 1005 1006 1007 1101 2001 2002 2003 3001 3002 3003 3004 3005 3101 3102 3103 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6101 6102 6103 6104 6105 6106 6107 6108 6109 6110 6201 6202 6203 6204 6205 6206 6207 6208 6209 6301 6302 6303 6305 6306 6401 6403 6405 6407 7001 9001 9002 9003 10001 10002 10003 10004 10005 10006 11001 11002 11003 11004 11005 11006 11007 11105 13001 13005 13008 14001 14002 14003 14004 14005 14006 14101 14102
}

######## Netherlands (3) #####################################

techlevels = {
1000 1100 2000 3000 3100 3200 4000 6000 6100 6200 6300 6400 7000 9000 10000 11000 11100 13000 14000 14100
}
techapps = {
1001 1002 1003 1005 1006 1007 1101 2001 2002 2003 3001 3002 3003 3004 3005 3101 3102 3103 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6101 6102 6103 6104 6105 6106 6107 6108 6109 6110 6201 6202 6206 6208 6209 6301 6303 6306 6401 6403 6405 6407 7001 9001 9002 9003 10001 10002 10003 10004 10005 10006 11001 11002 11003 11004 11005 11006 11007 11105 13001 13005 14001 14002 14003 14004 14005 14006 14101 14102
}

######## Portugal (3) #####################################

techlevels = {
1000 1100 2000 3000 3100 3200 4000 6000 6100 7000 9000 10000 11000 11100 13000 14000 14100
}
techapps = {
1001 1002 1003 1005 1006 1007 1101 2001 2002 2003 3001 3002 3003 3004 3005 3101 3102 3103 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6101 6102 6103 6106 6108 6110 7001 9001 9002 9003 10001 10002 10003 10004 10005 10006 11001 11002 11003 11004 11005 11006 11007 11105 14001 14002 14003 14004 14005 14006 14101 14102
}

######## Romania, Bulgaria (3) #####################################

techlevels = {
1000 1100 2000 3000 3100 3200 4000 6000 6100 7000 9000 10000 11000 11100 12000 12100 13000 14000 14100
}
techapps = {
1001 1002 1003 1005 1006 1007 1101 2001 2002 2003 3001 3002 3003 3004 3005 3101 3102 3103 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6101 6102 6103 6106 6108 6110 7001 9001 9002 9003 10001 10002 10003 10004 10005 10006 11001 11002 11003 11004 11005 11006 11007 12001 14001 14002 14003 14004 14005 14006 14101 14102
}

######## Russia (2) #####################################

techlevels = {
1000 1100 1200 2000 2100 3000 3100 3200 3300 4000 5000 5100 5200 6000 6100 6200 6300 6400 7000 8000 9000 9100 10000 10100 11000 11100 12000 13000 14000 14100 14200
}
techapps = {
1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1101 1102 1106 2001 2002 2003 2101 2102 3001 3002 3003 3004 3005 3006 3101 3102 3103 3104 3301 3302 3304 3305 3306 3307 4001 4002 5001 5002 5003 5004 5005 5006 5101 5102 5103 5104 5105 5201 5202 5203 5204 5205 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6101 6102 6103 6104 6105 6106 6107 6108 6109 6110 6201 6202 6203 6204 6205 6206 6207 6208 6209 6301 6302 6303 6304 6305 6306 6307 6401 6403 6405 6407 7001 9001 9002 9003 10001 10002 10003 10004 10005 10006 10007 10101 10102 11001 11002 11003 11004 11005 11006 11007 11101 11103 11104 11105 12001 12003 13001 13002 13005 13008 13009 14001 14002 14003 14004 14005 14006 14101 14102 14103 14104 14105 14201 14202 14203
}

######## Italy (2) #####################################

techlevels = {
1000 1100 1200 2000 2100 3000 3100 3200 3300 4000 5000 5100 6000 6100 6200 6300 6400 7000 8000 9000 9100 10000 10100 11000 11100 12000 12100 13000 14000 14100 14200
}
techapps = {
1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1101 1102 1106 2001 2002 2003 2101 2102 3001 3002 3003 3004 3005 3006 3101 3102 3103 3104 3301 3302 3304 3305 3306 3307 4001 4002 5001 5002 5003 5004 5005 5006 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6101 6102 6103 6104 6105 6106 6107 6108 6109 6110 6201 6202 6203 6204 6205 6206 6207 6208 6209 6301 6302 6303 6305 6306 6401 6403 6405 6407 7001 9001 9002 9003 10001 10002 10003 10004 10005 10006 10007 10101 10102 11001 11002 11003 11004 11005 11006 11007 11101 11103 11104 11105 12001 12002 12003 13001 13002 13005 13008 13009 14001 14002 14003 14004 14005 14006 14101 14102 14103 14104 14105 14201 14202 14203
}

######## Japan (2) #####################################

techlevels = {
1000 1100 1200 2000 2100 3000 3100 3200 3300 4000 5000 6000 6100 6200 6300 6400 6500 6600 7000 8000 9000 9100 10000 11000 11100 12000 14000 14100 14200
}
techapps = {
1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1101 1102 1106 2001 2002 2003 2101 2102 3001 3002 3003 3004 3005 3006 3101 3102 3103 3104 3301 3302 3304 3305 3306 3307 4001 4002 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6101 6102 6103 6104 6105 6106 6107 6108 6109 6110 6201 6202 6203 6204 6205 6206 6207 6208 6209 6301 6302 6303 6304 6305 6306 6307 6401 6402 6403 6404 6405 6406 6407 6503 6504 6505 6506 6507 6601 6602 6605 7001 9001 9002 9003 10001 10002 10003 10004 10005 10006 11001 11002 11003 11004 11005 11006 11007 11101 11103 11104 11105 12001 12003 14001 14002 14003 14004 14005 14006 14101 14102 14103 14104 14105 14201 14202 14203
}

######## Austria-Hungary (2) #####################################

techlevels = {
1000 1100 1200 2000 2100 3000 3100 3200 3300 4000 5000 5100 6000 6100 6200 6300 6400 7000 8000 9000 9100 10000 10100 11000 11100 12000 13000 14000 14100 14200 14300 14400
}
techapps = {
1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1101 1102 1106 2001 2002 2003 2101 2102 3001 3002 3003 3004 3005 3006 3101 3102 3103 3104 3301 3302 3304 3305 3306 3307 4001 4002 5001 5002 5003 5004 5005 5006 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6101 6102 6103 6104 6105 6106 6107 6108 6109 6110 6201 6202 6203 6204 6205 6206 6207 6208 6209 6301 6302 6303 6304 6305 6306 6307 6401 6403 6405 6407 7001 9001 9002 9003 10001 10002 10003 10004 10005 10006 10007 10101 10102 11001 11002 11003 11004 11005 11006 11007 11101 11103 11104 11105 12001 12003 13001 13002 13005 13008 13009 14001 14002 14003 14004 14005 14006 14101 14102 14103 14104 14105 14201 14202 14203 14205 14206 14207 14307 14308 14402
}

######## Belgium (2) #####################################

techlevels = {
1000 1100 1200 2000 2100 2200 3000 3100 3200 3300 4000 6000 7000 8000 9000 9100 10000 10100 11000 11100 12000 14000 14100 14200 14300 14400
}
techapps = {
1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1101 1102 1106 2001 2002 2003 2101 2102 2201 3001 3002 3003 3004 3005 3006 3101 3102 3103 3104 3301 3302 3304 3305 3306 3307 4001 4002 6001 6008 7001 9001 9002 9003 10001 10002 10003 10004 10005 10006 10007 10101 10102 11001 11002 11003 11004 11005 11006 11007 11101 11103 11104 11105 12001 12003 14001 14002 14003 14004 14005 14006 14101 14102 14103 14104 14105 14201 14202 14203 14205 14206 14207 14307 14308 14402
}

######## Britain #####################################

techlevels = {
1000 1100 1200 2000 2100 2200 3000 3100 3200 3300 3400 4000 4100 5000 5100 5200 6000 6100 6200 6300 6400 6500 6600 6700 6800 7000 8000 9000 9100 9200 10000 10100 11000 11100 11200 12000 12100 13000 13100 14000 14100 14200 14300 14400
}
techapps = {
1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1101 1102 1103 1106 1203 1206 2001 2002 2003 2101 2102 2103 2104 2201 2202 2205 3001 3002 3003 3004 3005 3006 3101 3102 3103 3104 3106 3201 3202 3203 3301 3302 3304 3305 3306 3307 3402 3404 4001 4002 4003 4004 4005 4006 5001 5002 5003 5004 5005 5006 5101 5102 5103 5104 5105 5201 5202 5203 5204 5205 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6101 6102 6103 6104 6105 6106 6107 6108 6109 6110 6201 6202 6203 6204 6205 6206 6207 6208 6209 6301 6302 6303 6304 6305 6306 6307 6401 6402 6403 6404 6405 6406 6407 6503 6504 6505 6506 6507 6601 6602 6605 6705 6706 6801 6802 6805 7002 8001 9001 9002 9003 9103 9104 9201 9202 9203 10001 10002 10003 10004 10005 10006 10007 10101 10102 10103 10104 11001 11002 11003 11004 11005 11006 11007 11101 11103 11104 11105 11202 12001 12002 12003 13001 13002 13004 13005 13008 13009 13105 14001 14002 14003 14004 14005 14006 14101 14102 14103 14104 14105 14201 14202 14203 14205 14206 14207 14307 14308 14405
}

######## USA #####################################

techlevels = {
1000 1100 1200 2000 2100 2200 3000 3100 3200 3300 3400 4000 4100 4200 5000 5100 5200 6000 6100 6200 6300 6400 6500 6600 7000 8000 9000 9100 9200 10000 10100 11000 11100 11200 12000 12100 13000 13100 14000 14100 14200 14300 14400
}
techapps = {
1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1101 1102 1103 1106 1203 1206 2001 2002 2003 2101 2102 2103 2202 3001 3002 3003 3004 3005 3006 3101 3102 3103 3104 3106 3203 3301 3302 3304 3305 3306 3307 3402 3404 4001 4002 4003 4004 4005 4006 4007 4101 4102 4103 5001 5002 5003 5004 5005 5006 5101 5102 5103 5104 5105 5201 5202 5203 5204 5205 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6101 6102 6103 6104 6105 6106 6107 6108 6109 6110 6201 6202 6203 6204 6205 6206 6207 6208 6209 6301 6302 6303 6304 6305 6306 6307 6401 6402 6403 6404 6405 6406 6407 6503 6504 6505 6506 6507 6601 6602 6605 7002 8001 9001 9002 9003 9103 9104 9201 9202 9203 10001 10002 10003 10004 10005 10006 10007 10101 10102 10103 10104 11001 11002 11003 11004 11005 11006 11007 11101 11103 11104 11105 12001 12002 12003 13001 13002 13005 13008 13009 13105 14001 14002 14003 14004 14005 14006 14101 14102 14103 14104 14105 14201 14202 14203 14205 14206 14207 14307 14308 14405
}

######## France #####################################

techlevels = {
1000 1100 1200 2000 2100 2200 3000 3100 3200 3300 3400 4000 5000 5100 6000 6100 6200 6300 6400 6500 6600 7000 8000 9000 9100 9200 9300 10000 10100 11000 11100 11200 12000 12100 13000 13100 14000 14100 14200 14300 14400
}
techapps = {
1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1101 1102 1103 1106 1203 1206 2001 2002 2003 2101 2102 2103 2104 3001 3002 3003 3004 3005 3006 3101 3102 3103 3104 3106 3203 3301 3302 3304 3305 3306 3307 3402 3404 4001 4002 4003 4005 4006 5001 5002 5003 5004 5005 5006 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6101 6102 6103 6104 6105 6106 6107 6108 6109 6110 6201 6202 6203 6204 6205 6206 6207 6208 6209 6301 6302 6303 6304 6305 6306 6307 6401 6402 6403 6404 6405 6406 6407 6503 6504 6505 6506 6507 6601 6602 6605 7001 8001 9001 9002 9003 9103 9104 9201 9202 9203 9301 9302 10001 10002 10003 10004 10005 10006 10007 10101 10102 10103 10104 11001 11002 11003 11004 11005 11006 11007 11101 11103 11104 11105 12001 12002 12003 13001 13002 13005 13008 13009 13103 13105 14001 14002 14003 14004 14005 14006 14101 14102 14103 14104 14105 14201 14202 14203 14205 14206 14207 14307 14308 14405
}

######## Germany #####################################

techlevels = {
1000 1100 1200 2000 2100 2200 3000 3100 3200 3300 3400 4000 4100 5000 5100 5200 6000 6100 6200 6300 6400 6500 6600 7000 8000 9000 9100 9200 9300 9400 10000 10100 11000 11100 11200 12000 12100 13000 13100 14000 14100 14200 14300 14400
}
techapps = {
1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1101 1102 1103 1104 1106 1203 1206 2001 2002 2003 2101 2102 3001 3002 3003 3004 3005 3006 3101 3102 3103 3104 3106 3203 3301 3302 3304 3305 3306 3307 3402 3404 4001 4002 4003 4005 4006 4101 4102 5001 5002 5003 5004 5005 5006 5101 5102 5103 5104 5105 6001 6002 6003 6004 6005 6006 6007 6008 6101 6102 6103 6104 6105 6106 6107 6108 6109 6110 6201 6202 6203 6204 6205 6206 6207 6208 6209 6301 6302 6303 6304 6305 6306 6307 6401 6402 6403 6404 6405 6406 6407 6503 6504 6505 6506 6507 6601 6602 6605 7001 8001 8002 8003 9001 9002 9003 9103 9104 9201 9202 9203 9301 9302 9303 9404 10001 10002 10003 10004 10005 10006 10007 10101 10102 10103 10104 11001 11002 11003 11004 11005 11006 11007 11101 11103 11104 11105 11201 11205 12001 12002 12003 13001 13002 13005 13008 13009 13105 14001 14002 14003 14004 14005 14006 14101 14102 14103 14104 14105 14201 14202 14203 14205 14206 14207 14307 14308 14402
}

ptan54 · Dec 23, 2003

Brilliant stuff Stephen.

Once Steele has sorted out the rest of the problems I suggest we start coming up with ideas for country specific techs.

Not all of these will be historical. I intend to have them to reflect "historical trends" such as the superiority of German infantry tactics and submarines, British naval supremacy, French and Russian morale hits. (which last long so we cant have an event that ups dissent and leave it at that)

One thing we'll have to consider is that these techs are "special" so we may want to make them super insanely expensive, so expensive that anyone researching them will need to wait until 1930 until completion. This would mean that only specially scripted events will activate the techs.

GERMAN TECHS
Strosstruppen -

Trigger: Germany at war with France and/or Britain, Russia is knocked out of the war, and have an event that pops up saying "All out on the west?" yes will activate, no does nothing.

Note: In our "Kaiserschlacht" scenario of 21 March 1918 Germany will start with this activated.

Commentary: Granted the British and French had infiltration tactics also - but it was Germany that employed them to rather devastating (but ineffective in the end) effects. Perhaps we should have such a tech that grants +1 soft attack, -1 defence (viable?) to all German infantry? Crucially we'll also have to include a "deactivation" tech to simulate the High Command giving up on such a tactic. This "deactivation" tech would presumably cost 1IC and take 2 weeks or so to research so a player can get out of this mode.

Submarines -

Trigger: Late 1915 submarine event, there's one that asks whether Germany should stop or go all out. There is also another one in 1917, choosing yes in both events will activate.

Commentary: Perhaps this is already well covered by the existing "Unlimited Submarine Warfare" tech which everyone can research. Perhaps we should have a German specific tech, that grants +1 naval attack and +3 org? Side effects would be more expensive subs which cost longer to build. Again a deactivation tech required. This would be sort of like the Soviet event in CORE that gives Uncle Joe billions of divisions when Germany invades.

Initially thought of a "Hindenburg Line" tech but that would be more suitable for events.

BRITISH TECHS
Cruisers/Destroyers -

Trigger: If Germany gets their special unrestricted sub warfare, have an event that grants Britain this tech.

Commentary: Will give all British ships +1 naval attack. Is there any way to simulate better protection of convoys? Do they even have a defence value??

BRITISH/FRENCH TECH
Tanks

Trigger: Date must be after mid 1916 (?? reasonable ??) and once the ability to build a basic tank is met (have to check that all the prerequisite techs are met) an event will fire. The British event must fire first, before in turn triggering the French one about 6 months (??) later.

Commentary: Event asks whether to invest fully in tanks (makes tanks a bit cheaper and infantry expensive), or just use them as attachments since they arent that important (does nothing). I'm thinking whether we should increase attack values for this, but perhaps this will give the British too much firepower.

RUSSIAN "TECH"
Ineffectiveness in armed forces

Trigger: We have an event simulating the munitions shortages, loss of faith, etc etc....Have those trigger this.

Commentary: In addition to the dissent hits already taken, a lack of munitions will arguably decrease the firepower of Russian troops as well as make them more likely to become deserters. -1 defence to all Russians???? This will deactivate upon the the defeat of Germany or the occurrence of the March Revolution.

SOVIET "TECH"
Trotsky's army

Trigger: Soviets at war with White Russia and the west, Tsarist Russia no longer exists.

Commentary: Morale soared - but I dont think reducing dissent would be enough to do this. Have Soviet troops +1 att, and have the tech deactivated by event once White Russia ceases to exist.

unmerged(10168) · Dec 23, 2003

Far from it!

Good heavens! Britain should be far from finished with the whole tech tree in 1914, far from it. For one there should probably be either a tech or an event that fires in late 1916 (war SHOULD have been declared by then!) calles 'wartime experience'. In 1914 no nation had really tried their ships out in actual combat conditions except for Japan and Germany (and the ships they'd used were mostly obsolete by WW1), the Spanish-American war vessels being almost ALL obsolete. Britain's vaunted massive and beautiful battlecruisers were discovered to have flaws, Germany found her flash protection flaws just in time due to Dogger Bank. New weapons were being researched - torpedoes, aerial torpedoes, aerial units on ships and new guns. One example - prewar designs of smaller ships (CL, DD) tended to have only gun shields for their turrets if at all. This would lead to crew casualties and wounds below the knee from splinters and eventually full turrets were used for the smaller ships as well. Guns used by these small ships grew in size from tiny 3" or smaller to CL's of the Hawkins class carrying what would be classified at war's start as CA guns. The British developed the 15" w/c became their best, most accurate, and longest lived naval gun. There were improvements in propulsion so that by the 1920's (and the game does last till '24) the 21kt dreadnoughts were now TOO SLOW (they were faster than all other contemporaries even older cruisers when first designed). After the Admiral class of Battlecruisers (Hood) there were the projected G3 types and other hypothetical leviathans that were never built because of the Washington treaty (Amagi, Lexington, Erzatz Yorck) but if war continued they most likely would have been researched and tried out. The large light cruiser was a stop-gap measure but surely should be researchable with the advantage of being able to fight in the enclosed waters of the Baltic (shallower draft?) or the Bight.

Far from it I think... Britain should be at midpoint probably.

Best regards,
Richmond

Shadow Knight · Dec 23, 2003

ptah, instead of having an event that pops up, we could give each country that we plan on giving country specific techs something like CORE does, that being a tech at the beginning that no others can research. Then use that tech as pre-requisite for later techs that only that country could research.

EX) In the first tech field of Land Doctrines we could have: The Germany Army (maybe it has a small bonus in some field), but this could be a pre-requisite for German Army-1918, that would reflect the changes the German army went through during the stages of the war.

Or we could have something in the Naval Doctrines called the British Navy and have it reflect the professionalism and experience that the British navy had.

Allenby · Dec 23, 2003

Is there a limit on the number of techs that can be introduced into a tree?

I think parts of it need to be changed in quite a dramatic way (naval techs especially) - armoured cruisers need to be downgraded below light cruisers in my opinion, and as Stephen said, relegated from level five. Some other parts could do with a few changes as well.

The tree seems to be in a bit of a mess at the moment, so I think there should be a release when it is debugged, all techs given descriptions and all bonuses assigned. When that is done, we can consider country-specific techs.

No problem with thinking about what country-specific techs we could include in the future, however.

unmerged(11486) · Dec 24, 2003

I like this thinking. The country-specific techs add flavor...

I do think that Britain should be quite high up on the tree, though. Mid-way seems a little cruel to me.

Steele

Allenby · Dec 24, 2003

Have all the bugs, descriptions, bonuses been sorted out in the tech tree?

unmerged(11486) · Dec 24, 2003

All - no.
Some - yes.

I haven't done much the last couple days, but yesterday and today, I have managed to get a bit done. With luck, I'll have a file put together by the end of the day today... at worst tomorrow afternoon.

Steele

Allenby · Dec 24, 2003

Opt for tomorrow afternoon then.

We still need SK's 'air industry' tech to stop crashes, not to mention the scrolling down problem.

That, and starting techs to be put in the country.inc files

StephenT · Dec 24, 2003

I can see a couple of problems with country-specific techs:

1) They restrict players who want to try out alt-historical paths in the game. "What if Germany had neglected its army and concentrated far more on a blue-water navy?" etc.

2) They are bound to raise arguments on nationalistic and stereotyping grounds

For example, I'd strongly object to a tech that gave Germany big advantages in the development of infiltration tactics, advantages not available to any other nation. Germany's biggest achievement in this field was simply inventing a cool name for its infiltration-trained units - "stormtroopers" - which has turned on munchkins and amateur historians ever since

unmerged(11486) · Dec 24, 2003

And of course Star Wars fans.

Stephen has a good point... and the country-specific techs are also interesting.... hmmmm.... this is a conundrum.

Steele

Allenby · Dec 24, 2003

Include them if there is a great demand for them.

What constitutes 'great', I don't know....

Kaiser Bill · Dec 24, 2003

Is there any chance tank factories could be added to the tech tree.

Whilst doing the units it occured to me how slow tank production is, if it carried on the same footing as the indivisual firms used to make britains 'Little Willie' prototype tank.

Off the top of my head. -2 cost, -90 days

If so, can a prototype tank model be a pre-requisite also.

ptan54 · Dec 24, 2003

No sir - if anything these specific techs EXPAND possibilities, not restrict.

The triggers are events which give option A (accept, and triggers those techs) or option B (reject).

Hence the AI will go "historical" and the player is free to choose whether he wants to focus on the army or navy or zeppelins.

True about stormtroopers but as I've said, not entirely historical, just meant to add a wee bit of "flavour" which is why I suggested increased attack at the cost of defence. They were after all, methinks, lightly armoured but heavily armed troopers which dropped dead rather quickly in 1918. Considering the defensive tradeoff, I'm not sure whether this constitutes a German "advantage" - just makes the troops fire harder but die sooner.

Kaiser Bill's suggestion is also great - we could have an event that triggers this tech for Britain, as well as letting them research it any time they want of course.

unmerged(10168) · Dec 24, 2003

Not necessarily country specific

But I would think that we can't go wrong with what they did in CORE by having certain starting techs giving historic initial advantages to certain countries:

FRENCH - Elan
RUSSIAN - Russian Steamroller
BRITISH - Old Contemptibles

France and Russia should be imbued with 'the spirit of the bayonet' at the war's start thanks to Messimy and Sukholminov.

Alternatively you should have for army tech - RECENT WAR EXPERIENCE of which Spain and America, Britain (and South Africa), Russia and Japan would have them (of course the Balkan states and perhaps Turkey and Greece should qualify). These represent their experiences of the last 10-15 years fighting a 'modern war'.

Best regards,
Richmond

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