TechMod - A conceptual mod for technology

[Cheexsta]

TechMod: Technology in Antiquity Revisited

"Give me a place to stand, and I shall move the earth."
-Archimedes of Syracuse​

What is this?
So far this is a purely conceptual mod, the idea for which was partly sparked by a private question by Nisco, but has been something bouncing around in my head for a long time now.

The idea revolves around the complete removal of the technology system as we know it. As I'm sure you're aware, technology in EU: Rome is highly abstracted, and we've seen a lot of questions in the past concerning how things like "Underhanded Politics" could be "researched". In reality, it doesn't; it has always existed for as long as humans have. TechMod - a placeholder name, if nothing else - aims to change the way technology is researched.

The current system
I'm sure you all know how the current system works, but for the sake of comparison here is a quick summary:

1. City population is split into three different groups, of which Citizens provide Research points.
2. RP's are used to calculate the advancement of technology, based on the number of provinces and, as far as I'm aware, whether they share your culture, religion and are core provinces.
3. Each country then appoints to each of his "technology groups" one character whose Finesse value multiplies the RP value of that particular group.
4. Various other positions/titles/events/modifiers will multiply the number of RP's available in order to increase or decrease the rate of research.

TechMod's proposed system

1. A complete removal of RP's (and, subsequently, Citizens as a population group).
2. In its stead, each country starts off with a number of "Inventions". This may or may not be tied to the current Inventions system, I'm yet to conduct any serious research into this. There will also be a number of "Inventions" that no country has discovered yet.
3. Inventions will be split into various categories, including (but not limited to):
   • Tactics. This includes things like phalanx systems (eg Macedonian phalanxes and traditional hoplite phalanxes), Roman manipular tactics, centralisation/decentralisation of battlefield command and so on.
   • Arms and armour. This includes things like the gladius hispanensis, the corvus quinquireme, linothorax, chainmail etc.
   • Trade/taxation methods.
   • Government systems.
   • Citizenship.
   • Building styles.
   • Farming/irrigation methods.
   • And so on.
4. Contact with other countries will give you a chance of obtaining some of their inventions, depending on the type of contact. For example, trading with a country will give you a chance of adopting their trade/taxation methods and, to a lesser extend, weapons and armour; fighting battles (especially losing them) will give you a chance of adopting their tactics; obtaining tribute from or giving tribute to them will give you a chance of adopting their style of citizenship and government; occupying and owning land formerly owned by them will give you a chance of adopting their building styles, etc.
5. Obviously, some countries will be more keen on adopting certain Inventions than others. Civilised countries would not want to take up a Tribal government, for example, but they might find Celtic chainmail to be highly valuable.
6. In rare circumstances, and with very specific prerequisites, certain Inventions that don't exist in any other country might become available.
7. Simply having an Invention become available doesn't mean it will automatically take over - you still have at least some control over whether your country adopts the Invention. I'm thinking that if an Invention becomes possible, then you have to pass a Decision in order for it to take effect. For instance, as Macedonia you might come into regular conflict with Celtic tribes, and thus gain access to their Chainmail invention. The Invention by itself won't do anything, but passing a Decision will allow you to equip your heavy infantry with it, increasing defensive values at the expense of offensive values (there's a reason why a phalangite's armour is light!), as well as an actual monetary cost of re-equipping your troops with it. Or, as Rome, you might lose a few battles against Carthage's navy and develop the corvus, but you still have to pass a Decision to be able to use it.

The To Do List of Doom
So, with the basic idea outlined above, I've set myself a number of tasks, mostly to research the feasibility of such a project. I hope to keep track of these here.

• Removal of RP's - feasible, and technology will not progress at all except through event.
• Removal of RP value from province details list - feasible, see y1kdcb5au9rqw's post below.
• Removal of any UI information (progress bars, tooltips etc) in the Technology screen regarding tech progress - feasible, fairly simple UI adjustments. Making it look good is another story.
• Removal of events etc that increase RP's or investments in technology - feasible, just a lot of work.
• Research triggers for Inventions (ie, can they be triggered without tech levels as a requirement?) - feasible, but inventions don't seem to be able to be triggered directly as an effect from an event/decision.
• Research possible on_actions events (the new HTTT-based system will make things much easier!) for triggering Inventions - unable to directly trigger inventions, but can use flags etc.
• Research ways to make current Inventions more clear (triggered modifiers?) - in progress.
• Devise comprehensive list of Invention categories and sub-categories - in progress.
• Devise comprehensive list of Inventions to fit those categories and how those inventions are likely to be transferred - in progress.

What do you think? Do you have any further suggestions on how to improve technology, or think of any other categories (and even sub-categories) that I have not mentioned?

Thank you all for looking, any feedback would be highly appreciated

 

[y1kdcb5au9rqw]

Here is an "old" screenie from MARE NOSTRVM which might answer some of your questions

 

[Cheexsta]

(Preface: these are just general ideas at the moment, I'm not absolutely sure how they'd be represented [especially the general term "mobility"], but it's really just a mind dump if nothing else. I don't have any references for my statements here, that will come soon enough.)

Inventions

1. Battlefield tactics and warfare styles:
   • Individual tactics. Warriors more or less fight as individuals - while they might be powerful, there is little discipline and is relatively easy to break. Used by barbarians and uncivilised tribes.
   • Manipular tactics. Relatively small blocks of infantry, with plenty of space in between them to allow faster reaction time to enemy movements. Used by Romans and Romanised countries.
   • Hoplite phalanx. Tight blocks of infantry with heavy shields and spears. Used by Greeks and Hellenised countries.
   • Macedonian phalanx. Tight blocks of infantry with very long spears and light armour. Used by Macedonians, including Seleucids and Ptolemaic Egyptians.
   • Mixed infantry types. Uses a variety of unit types, usually from varying ethnic groups. Used by Carthage and several Eastern groups.
   • Hit-and-run tactics. Uses light infantry and cavalry to strike at weak points of the enemy. Used by Numidians and several Eastern groups (early Parthia?).
   • Improved battlefield communications (eg flags, whistles, etc).
   • More control for sub-commanders (eg centurions, etc).
   • Deepen infantry block. Makes them more resilient but more prone to flanking?
   • Cataphract charge. 'Nuff said.
   • More to come...
2. Arms & Armour:
   • Minimal armour. Very light armour (or lack thereof) to provide maximum mobility. Especially useful for hit-and-run types.
   • Linothorax. Lightweight armour of layered linen. Especially useful for phalanxes to retain mobility.
   • Leather cuirass. Any better than linothorax?
   • Bronze cuirass. Heavier than linothorax, but still a relatively soft metal. Good for any heavy infantry, but heavy.
   • Iron cuirass. Heavier again than bronze, but provides more protection at the expense of mobility.
   • Chainmail. Made of interlinked chain and very useful against slashing blows from swords, etc. Celts were well known for their ability in producing chainmail, and Roman soldiers quickly adopted it if they could afford it.
   • Scalemail. Made of overlapping, "fish-scale" pieces of metal. Predominantly used in the East for cataphracts and elite infantry and archers.
   • Lengthen spears (phalanxes only). Improved attack but lower mobility.
   • Shorten spears (phalanxes only). Improved mobility but lower attack.
   • Lengthen swords (not phalanxes). Improved attack but lower defense.
   • Shorten swords (not phalanxes). Improved defense but lower attack.
   • Large aspes (hoplite phalanx shields). Improved defense but lower mobility.
   • Lighter thureos (reformed hoplite shields). Improved hoplite and warband flexibility?
   • Self-bows and basic slings. The western Mediterranean wasn't particularly known for its bows, and slings (think David and Goliath, not Bart Simpson) were often thought of as a "peasant's weapon". However, they did the job.
   • Composite recurve bows. Very advanced and powerful bows of the East.
   • Lead sling bullets. Some societies actually cast specially-made bullets out of lead for their slings, improving their efficiency and range.
   • Heavy elephant armour.
   • Armour decorations. Even something as simple as a tall feather attached to a helmet improved the visage of troops in antiquity, often used to make them seem taller or more powerful than they really were.
   • Horse saddles. While stirrups weren't yet invented, well-designed saddles often made fighting from horseback much easier.
   • More to come...
3. Farming, trade and taxation:
   • Animal herding. Basic form of farming, used by Germanic tribes and nomadic cultures.
   • Pasturalisation. Basic farming methods of sowing crops and using the resulting seeds to sow more.
   • Organised farming? Calendar system?
   • Improved irrigation (eg Archimedes' Screw).
   • Advanced slave working system?
   • Taxation agents.
   • Advanced provincial taxation system?
   • Trade taxation practices?
   • Funding for piracy. Certain states (and even individual cities and regions) allowed and even funded pirates to go out and loot other traders (Illyrians). I'm sure this income was then taxed.
4. Government administration:
   • Not sure what to put here.
5. Building styles:
   • Nomadic camps.
   • Simplistic buildings.
   • Decorative buildings.
   • Etc.

And I'm spent.

 

[Cheexsta]

Here is an "old" screenie from MARE NOSTRVM which might answer some of your questions

Ahh brilliant, thanks for that! That's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for

 

[Nisco]

....
[*]Government administration:

• Not sure what to put here.

[*]Building styles:

• Nomadic camps.
• Simplistic buildings.
• Decorative buildings.
• Etc.

[/list]

And I'm spent.

Some of the governments witch came up in this period was, as i recall it, temporarily dictatorships (at this time, it was not considered a bad thing), Tyranny, some democratic reforms was passed in this period witch also could be represented.

Just some ideas

 

[y1kdcb5au9rqw]

Your idea is eerily close to what we did in MARE NOSTRVM yet clearly your point of origin and approach seems to be from the exact opposite side of the subject compared to us – really cool

[*]Research triggers for Inventions (ie, can they be triggered without tech levels as a requirement?) - unknown.

We know that you can use country flags and other inventions as triggers so in principle you should be able to make advanced trigger conditions by event and have those set flags that the inventions can trigger off even if it is not possible to use the advanced triggers directly in the invention file. However it seems unlikely that PI made a separate "event" engine for the inventions so you can probably use most triggers in there.

In the unlikely event that there has to be a tech level in the inventions file you can simply put 0 or maybe 1 in every invention since they would still need to fulfil the other conditions for the inventions to trigger.

[*]Research possible on_actions events (the new HTTT-based system will make things much easier!) for triggering Inventions - unknown.

If you want to trigger the inventions of the actions already there it should be simple enough, however if you mean adding new "on_action"s; that would be extremely unlikely to work.

 

[Descartes]

Interesting stuff!

 

[Hardradi]

There's a lot to get your head around with what you are proposing. It would definately be an improvement.

Some thoughts:

1)

each country starts off with a number of "Inventions"

it would be nice to develop cultural templates which could be applied to individual greek states and gallic tribes, this would make it easier to apply to other mods and throughout the time period of the game
2) I would like to see technology options/decisions/paths available at the start of the game, rather than having to wait 15 to 30 years for things to start happening
3) Really like the idea of being able to see more "clearly" current inventions
4) What would you do wth the old citizens ? Make them patricians ?
5) Different technologies could spread at different levels:

- Province (like Crusader Kings) - specific technologies should migrate from province to province
- Region - broad or categories or levels of technology advancement would spread from region to region
- Nation - between nations you would have a decision which allowed you to pass on a technology to another country, this could be specific or broad (there was something like this in HOI1)
- Cultural - government types and building styles
- Religion ?​

 

[Cheexsta]

Some of the governments witch came up in this period was, as i recall it, temporarily dictatorships (at this time, it was not considered a bad thing), Tyranny, some democratic reforms was passed in this period witch also could be represented.

Just some ideas

Thanks Nisco, the reforms stuff is mostly what I'm thinking in regards to government and administration.

We know that you can use country flags and other inventions as triggers so in principle you should be able to make advanced trigger conditions by event and have those set flags that the inventions can trigger off even if it is not possible to use the advanced triggers directly in the invention file. However it seems unlikely that PI made a separate "event" engine for the inventions so you can probably use most triggers in there.

That's more or less exactly what I was thinking. Have events fire from on_actions that place country flags and/or modifiers which could be used as a trigger for the invention. For example, as one of the on_battle_lost events, there could be some small chance of the general being inspired by the enemy's tactics and, through event, applying it on a small scale and suggesting that the state adopts it as official policy. This would give your country a flag which the Invention uses as a trigger - and Inventions usually take a while to appear once their triggers are met, which would be able to represent the idea filtering through and becoming common practice, which you can then endorse via decision.

Interesting stuff!

Thanks Des

Some thoughts:

1) it would be nice to develop cultural templates which could be applied to individual greek states and gallic tribes, this would make it easier to apply to other mods and throughout the time period of the game
2) I would like to see technology options/decisions/paths available at the start of the game, rather than having to wait 15 to 30 years for things to start happening
3) Really like the idea of being able to see more "clearly" current inventions
4) What would you do wth the old citizens ? Make them patricians ?
5) Different technologies could spread at different levels:

- Province (like Crusader Kings) - specific technologies should migrate from province to province
- Region - broad or categories or levels of technology advancement would spread from region to region
- Nation - between nations you would have a decision which allowed you to pass on a technology to another country, this could be specific or broad (there was something like this in HOI1)
- Cultural - government types and building styles
- Religion ?​

1. Good point, well noted. It'll make things easier to implement, certainly.
2. Hmm, I'll have to think about this and how to represent it.
3. Yep, it'll actually be really easy to just use the active_inventions = x code for a triggered_modifier (assuming that it works).
4. Probably remove them completely so there are only two POPs (and might rename Freedmen to Citizens). Citizens would then provide manpower (which is historical) and slaves would provide money.
5. Interesting ideas, sounds similar to what I had in mind.


Thanks for the feedback everyone!

 

[JDMS]

Sounds good.

 

[UniversalWolf]

First of all, really interesting! The idea of spreading inventions by contact with foreign cultures is a good one.

A complete removal of RP's (and, subsequently, Citizens as a population group).

You could do that...or you could keep the RPs and use them for something other than "tech levels". Maybe when you hit what used to be a tech level, it could unlock the opportunity to adopt an invention you've acquired from another country.

Or, as Rome, you might lose a few battles against Carthage's navy and develop the corvus, but you still have to pass a Decision to be able to use it.

The only quibble I have with that is that the corvus wasn't "learned" from the Carthaginians (as far as I know, anyway), but a spontaneous product of Roman invention in order to maximize their tactical strengths.

Tactics. This includes things like phalanx systems (eg Macedonian phalanxes and traditional hoplite phalanxes), Roman manipular tactics, centralisation/decentralisation of battlefield command and so on.

The single most important reform of Marius was extending opportunity of enrollment in the legions to the proletarii, so that should be included. Extending military service to the masses had far-reaching consequences (in the short-term it probably saved the Republic, while in the long-term it contributed to destroying the Republic).

You could apply a decision like that to other states, too.

 

[JDMS]

You could do that...or you could keep the RPs and use them for something other than "tech levels". Maybe when you hit what used to be a tech level, it could unlock the opportunity to adopt an invention you've acquired from another country.

I really like this idea. I might try a little harder to gain more RPs.

 

[y1kdcb5au9rqw]

After some hesitation I have decided to show you this:

Basically 80% of everything you do in MARE NOSTRVM is done through this browser tree.

As previously mentioned your idea is very close to our approach to technological progress but we decided to remove "inventions", as portrayed in vanilla, completely. Instead you have R&D options under each of the various headings, shown above in the topics related to Government.

Now the way this works is that when certain conditions are met you have the option to start researching, which will then unlock other "laws" that can be enacted and while in effect gives you the benefit of the "invention".

So under Government above we have the options of researching Efficiency and Capacity (or both if we have nothing better to do with our limited resources). After I finish with one of them I would get more options under the other headings so for instance capacity might give me the option to add another amendment to my constitution etc.

It is being considered to give R&D its own heading in the root tree but as you might imagine both the functional and objective approach has its pros and cons so we might end up doing both as the same law can be shown several places in the tree based on "potential/allowed" conditions.

I should also add, that the reason we use the law interface instead of the decision interface is partly that it is more neat but mostly because we use the decisions as alerts (they have the alert icon on the main interface) and that would not work if it was always showing the root of the browser tree.

 

[Nisco]

Thanks Nisco, the reforms stuff is mostly what I'm thinking in regards to government and administration.
...
Thanks for the feedback everyone!

Well. You are a little vague about the reforms, but i adventure some things that maybe could be implanted.
First, the currency should be regulated. Some governments were good at this, while others pumped money out, to try to pay for armies.
Second, some laws about the language used in the officials laws, so some groups would feel overseen.
Third, maybe some reorganizing of the lands, from the rich to the poor and from the poor to the rich.

...

The only quibble I have with that is that the corvus wasn't "learned" from the Carthaginians (as far as I know, anyway), but a spontaneous product of Roman invention in order to maximize their tactical strengths.

...

That's indeed true. but the roman ships who fought against Carthage, was originally a Carthaginian ships, witch was lost to storm and landed at the roman coast. The romans copied the boat. To maximize their excellent land troops, they had the corvus installed to be sure that the enemy ship wasn't going to flee under the battle. After a huge sea battle between Rome and Carthage, and some decisive losses to Carthage, they never entered a sea battle against Rome unless they were double as many as the Romans.

 

[UniversalWolf]

That's indeed true. but the roman ships who fought against Carthage, was originally a Carthaginian ships, witch was lost to storm and landed at the roman coast. The romans copied the boat.

I'm not convinced that's not a legend - not that I have anything against it even if it is.

Many of the city-states of southern Italy were Greek trading colonies (Pyrrhus entered Italy when the Greek cities appealed to other Greeks for help against the Roman barbarians). As Rome extended its domination over them, they encountered Greek naval technology. There was no need to copy ships from the Carthaginians, since they could have copied them from their Greek-Italian subjects/allies.

Maybe owning a Greek culture province should give some access to Greek technology.

 

[Cheexsta]

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Interesting idea in using tech levels to represent something else. Maybe use them to represent that country's level of technological innovation, or how willing they are to accept foreign concepts?

Regarding the corvus, I understand that it wasn't a piece of Carthaginian technology that was adapted, but it still came about as a direct result of contact with Carthage's navy. As such, its "discovery" (as well as a number of other tech "advancements" that can be applied to the game, such as the diadochi armies lengthening their spears to try to gain some advantage over each others' phalanxes) would be one of those Inventions that are spontaneously triggered after battles, depending on many different circumstances, cf. Point 6 of the original idea proposal.

Completely agree regarding Marian reforms, that would be another thing that would have a lot of prerequisites and have a pretty big immediate impact but fairly severe long-term consequences if not handled properly.

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Thanks for sharing! I haven't heard much from the Mare Nostrum project since it was first announced (which was ages ago now, come to think of it), how is it coming along?

In any case, very interesting ideas. My only concern is how the AI would deal with it - presumeably by event?

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I like those ideas for reforms, I'll add them to the list.

Again, thanks to everyone who contributed ideas I hope to get some more testing done over the next few days/weeks thanks to uni holidays, hopefully I won't be bogged down by assignments...

 

[y1kdcb5au9rqw]

Thanks for sharing! I haven't heard much from the Mare Nostrum project since it was first announced (which was ages ago now, come to think of it), how is it coming along?

Very very slowly

I am the only one left of the original MN team and Tartarin is last man standing of RIMP so the synergy is not what it used to be...

One of the biggest obstacles has been to pick up the slack on RIMP 2.0 with the extended map etc.

And there is the problem with the patches being perpetual betas, which makes it dangerous to get too detailed with something that might be completely changed for the next patch – like when they changed the date format.

However we have proof of concept on most of our game mechanics so once we have a satisfactory patch something might actually make it to release.

I have a little birthday teaser planned on the two year anniversary of the mod in a couple of weeks though

In any case, very interesting ideas. My only concern is how the AI would deal with it - presumeably by event?

To be honest very little testing has been done on this. As it stands at the moment the laws are only organised in the tree for the player. All the "folders" are not shown for the AI so in theory it will just look at the laws as it does in Vanilla.

 

[Nisco]

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The greek historian Polybius, wrote 264 B.C. "The romans built 120 warships in two months. This shows us, better than anything else, that how determined the romans are, when they have decided for something."
On vases from this period, it's possible to see how the roman ships had the same look as the Carthaginian. The romans most likely, got the design from a Carthaginian ships witch had hit the ground and was abandoned. The romans had a very good land army but no navy. There experienced legions where the backbone of the roman army and after the corvus was invented, they were also the backbone of the roman navy. The Carthaginian used a different tactic than the romans. The Carthaginians used a bronze horn at the start of the ship to sink enemy ships. This meant that they had to be very close to the enemy ship. The romans used this knowledge to use the corvus to its fully potential. In many sea battles, the Carthaginians used there old technic and they lost most of there fleet in 256 B.C. The corvus did have one big disadvantage, it caused instability to the ship in hard weather. After a great sea battle where the romans had won and captured a lot of ships, they ran into a storm and there they lost 300 ships. Mainly caused by the corvus.

In game terms, this could be represented that if the romans enact to use the corvus they should lose some navy organisation. The Carthaginians should maybe be able to use the corvus if they capture a roman culture province.

 

[zeroFX]

Interesting stuff indeed, though it would be better if Paradox revamped that part of the game themselve. That way there could be a proper management interface. That said, I dont see anything like it coming anytime soon. But to commit something:

There should be a slider/modifier that affects how well you improve your own techs or adopt foreign ones.
Improving your own techs or by that means advancing local/regional/national techs then could affect spread of your civilisation/culture/etc.
Adopting foreign techs on the opposite may have a short/mid termed negativ effect on the stability of your nation. That constantly decreases as long as you dont acquire too many new foreign techs in a certain time frame.
It also would (negativly) affect the spreading of your own culture while at the same time allowing you to integrate other cultures quicker.

That way one could adjust his nation better to the own gameplay style.