Technology

[unmerged(53222)]

How about two sections:
Top half of the Tech tree would be organization/training elements like StephenT proposes.
Bottom half would be theories, tactics that give bonuses to various types of attack (ground, interdiction, bomb convoy, port strike, naval interdiction, etc.)

That would work nicely.

 

[Shadow Knight]

Perhaps expand Recainassance into two categories Early and Late. Where Early is just spotting stuff with your eyes and a pair of binoculars, and Late is still and motion cameras, etc.

Sub-Techs:
Early - Propellar, Airplane Engine, Air Frame, Steering Controls, Binoculars (maybe Aerial Map Reading?)

-Tech groups needed: Airplane Manufacturing and General Equipment

Late - Aerial Camera, Aerial Motion Picture Camera, Colored Photography, Long-Range Engines/Large Fuel Tanks

-Tech groups needed: General Equipment, Chemistry, Airplane Manufacturing

Just a few ideas.

 

[Allenby]

How about two sections:
Top half of the Tech tree would be organization/training elements like StephenT proposes.
Bottom half would be theories, tactics that give bonuses to various types of attack (ground, interdiction, bomb convoy, port strike, naval interdiction, etc.)

Would this be arranged chronologically?

If so, I should register my doubt, given that organisation and training are elements of air doctrine that require modification and refinement as theory and practice changes; I do not regard training as the precursor to more advanced forms of tactics.

 

[StephenT]

The way I'd envisaged it, researching the 'Unit Specialisation' doctrine tech would enable you to then research specific sub-branches of techs each devoted to particular aspects of air combat. In my diagram, the column of techs starting with 'Scientific Bomb Aiming' are all ones which would improve the statistics of bomber units and enable/improve the efficiency of bombing missions. Likewise, the next column along is doctrines relating to fighter combat. We could add in similar tech groups for the other types of aircraft.

I suggest that once you've learned 'Unit Specialisation' you can research the specialist mission techs in any order. However, if we think of enough different types we could divide them into 'early' and 'late' and make you research all the early ones before you can start on the late ones. (Compare the different bombing techs in the HoI2 air doctrine tech tree, which are similarly grouped into 'early' and 'late').

I also suggest putting the more advanced doctrines (naval air combat, close air support, strategic bombing) under the next 'main' doctrine down, 'large scale operations', because these were developed later in the war with the benefit of experience - and for the most part they were only possible once countries had enough aircraft to engage in such actions effectively.

We could similarly put reconnaissance techs in the first level, under 'Professionalism' (on the same line as Scientific Aircraft Design).

EDIT: Forgot about airships, but they need to be included too!

 

[StephenT]

Also, for reference, this is the complete list of commands which are used in the HoI2 Air Doctrine tech tree:


command = { type = max_organization which = [unit type] value = [n] }
command = { type = morale which = [unit type] value = [n] }
These two are by far the most common results of researching a tech.


command = { type = enable_task which = ground_attack }
command = { type = enable_task which = interdiction }
command = { type = enable_task which = naval_strike }
command = { type = enable_task which = logistical_strike }
command = { type = enable_task which = strategic_bombardment }
command = { type = enable_task which = port_strike }
command = { type = enable_task which = installation_strike }
command = { type = enable_task which = runway_cratering }
command = { type = enable_task which = convoy_air_raiding }
command = { type = enable_task which = airborne_assault }
In HoI2, all but airborne assault are researched as part of the very first doctrine tech. In 1914, I think we should spread them out later. (Airborne assault should be a Secret Weapon tech, if we include it at all).


command = { type = task_efficiency which = [mission type] value = [n] }
Usually, each mission type has one (sometimes more) later tech which improves its efficiency - obviously, researching these should come later than the tech enabling the mission in the first place!


command = { type = snow_attack which = [unit type] value = [n] }
command = { type = rain_attack which = [unit type] value = [n] }
command = { type = night_attack which = [unit type] value = [n] }
command = { type = night_defense which = [unit type] value = [n] }
Night attack and defence improvements would be important for Zeppelins, and for interceptors a bit later on. I'm not sure that any of the other advances in this category are appropriate for WW1.


command = { type = build_cost which = [unit type] when = now value = [n] where = relative }
These could be included in later techs, or be part of the Industrial tech tree.


The other thing to consider is making Air Doctrine techs pre-requisites for techs in the aircraft tech tree, so you have to research one before developing the other. howevber, I'd advise not doing this too often - I think it was one of the weaknesses of TGW that you had to, say, research three 1916 doctrines before researching a 1915 aircraft tech...

 

[Allenby]

Although I am reluctant to interrupt this discussion of air doctrine, I felt that I should assure you that I am not neglecting the naval doctrine tree, and that I should show recent developments:

I am getting there, somewhat gradually - yet as it is such an integral part of the game, it is worth giving plenty of consideration.

Observations welcome, of course.

 

[Kaiser Franz]

Secret Weapons of world war 1 !!

I know this too is unrelated to the current search for Air doctrines etc...but what of Secret weapons...i was thinking of a few..might as well consider..

Advanced Fight Planes (e.g metal Junkers CL-1 Monoplane fighter)
Heavy/light Advanced Tanks (e.g Tsar Tank, Leichtekampfwagen III etc don't know what to do about advanced tanks etc)
Long Range Strategic (?) Bombers (long range for the period lol)
Airborne Assault troops (i do belive someone came up with the idea of dropping troops in German lines in 1918)
Rail Guns/ Superguns (think of the Parisgeschutz)
Sonar Devices (anti-Sub devices)
Anti-Armour weaponry (think AT rifles, guns etc)
Advanced Poison Gas (Maybe?)
Advanced Cryptography/Cryptanalysis (code breaking etc, intelligence)
Wireless/Portable Radios

I mean, these are ideas and just a bit of brain storming...be welcome to say how bad/good some of the ideas are, i mean, i'm not exactly an expert on the technology tree at present, so some are probably out of the question due to them being put in other places etc etc...

 

[Shadow Knight]

What about wireless phone/man-portable radios

 

[Kaiser Franz]

i'll add things to the list as ideas come along etc...i've added wireless radios etc

 

[KingMississippi]

Although I am reluctant to interrupt this discussion of air doctrine, I felt that I should assure you that I am not neglecting the naval doctrine tree, and that I should show recent developments:

I am getting there, somewhat gradually - yet as it is such an integral part of the game, it is worth giving plenty of consideration.

Observations welcome, of course.

Of course this is even more complex than what I have finished at the moment ... thank you Allenby

 

[Sir Humphrey]

I hate to be a bore, but is there going to be much tech Zepplin wise?

 

[unmerged(53222)]

OK, I've worked on the Air Doctrine tree some more and integrated alot of StephenT's and everyone else's ideas. The researchable tech is bolded, the 5 sub-techs are italicized with their research number in parentheses.

Will this work?

 

[Shadow Knight]

Looks good but could you toss in a few doctrines that aid lighter-than-air ships (i.e. Zeppelins)? Also one that would allow said ships to supply via the air (like transports in vanilla HOI 2).

 

[unmerged(53222)]

Looks good but could you toss in a few doctrines that aid lighter-than-air ships (i.e. Zeppelins)? Also one that would allow said ships to supply via the air (like transports in vanilla HOI 2).

The Bomber Specialization/Strategic Bombing doctrines would address airships as well as airplanes.

I don't believe transports are being used in the 1914 mod. Has there been a change to the air units?

 

[Krayt]

I don't believe transports are being used in the 1914 mod. Has there been a change to the air units?

IIRC Zeppelins are using the transport plane unit type, at least they did so in TGW.

 

[Shadow Knight]

The Bomber Specialization/Strategic Bombing doctrines would address airships as well as airplanes.

I don't believe transports are being used in the 1914 mod. Has there been a change to the air units?

Okay. No you missed understood me there are no transports but a there should be a tech that opens up the possibility that airships can be used to supply-via-air. This is historical because the Germans were going to supply their colonial forces in German East Africa using Zepplins...this didn't happen because halfway there they got erronious reports that those forces had surrendered.

 

[Allenby]

Excellent regarding the air doctrine tree. We ought to decide the years after which those techs can be researched, and what type they are.

Not to mention the effects of researching them.

 

[unmerged(53222)]

Here we go. It's easier to read this in Excel or a similar spreadsheet program. All task efficiencies, morale, and max_org have been balanced. Please note: I'm not sure the unit value [air_force] will actually work in the game. All command tags should be checkeaird to ensure that the proper unit names are used.

These are the preliminary assumptions for units:

Base Morale of all air units: .1
Base Max Org of all air units: .1
Base Time for all air units: standard construction time + 150 days.
snow_attack value = .1
rain_attack value = .1
night_attack value = .1
night_defense value = .1

Air Professionalism	1905			
Private Research (5)		aircraft_testing		Time scout fighter -150
Aerial Theory (5)		aeronautics		command = { type = morale which = [air_force] value = [20] }
Military Integration (5)		centralized_execution		
Military Air Forces (5)		centralized_execution		
Air Officers (5)		training		

Powered Flight Concepts	1905			
Aerial Bombing (5)		bomber_tactics		command = { type = max_organization which = [air_force] value = [20] }
Aerial Reconnaissance (5)		piloting		
Aerial Artillery Observation (5)		piloting		
Leaflet Dropping Missions (5)		aircraft_testing		
Air Communications (5)		centralized_execution		

Air Classifications	1910			
Early Recon Theory (5)		small_unit_tactics		command = { type = enable_task which = ground_attack }
Early Naval Theory (5)		naval_training		command = { type = enable_task which = naval_strike }
Early Bomber Theory (5)		bomber_tactics		
Early Fighter Theory (5)		fighter_tactics		command = { type = morale which = [air_force] value = [20] }
Early Airship Theory (5)		nuclear_engineering		command = { type = max_organization which = [air_force] value = [20] }

Scientific Design	1912			
Research Organization (5)		management		Time two-seat fighter -150
Welding and Assembly (5)		mechanics		Time escort fighter -150
Field Testing (5)		aircraft_testing		Time recon_bomber -150
Prototype Models (5)		aircraft_testing		Time contour bomber -150
Performance Models (5)		aircraft_testing		Time strategic bomber -150
				Time seaplane -150
				Time airship -150

Land-Based Specialization	1914			
Ground Observation (5)		training		Flak Power 50
AA Battery Organization (5)		training		Surprise Chance air 15
AA Battery Training (5)		training		command = { type = max_organization which = [air_force] value = [5] }
Airbase Defenses (5)		fighter_tactics		command = { type = morale which = [air_force] value = [5] }
Ground Communication (5)		centralized_execution		

Bomber Specialization	1914			
Ground Attack Concepts (5)		bomber_tactics		command = { type = enable_task which = interdiction }
Scientific Aiming (5)		aeronautics		command = { type = task_efficiency which = [ground_attack] value = [.3] }
Targeting & Analysis (5)		piloting		command = { type = max_organization which = [strategic_bomber] value = [10] }
Recon/Bomb Coordination (5)		centralized_execution		command = { type = max_organization which = [contour_bomber] value = [10] }
Bomber Formations (5)		bomber_tactics		command = { type = max_organization which = [airship] value = [10] }
				command = { type = night_attack which = [airship] value = [20] }

Fighter Specialization	1914			
Fighter Formations (5)		fighter_tactics		
Ace System (5)		individual_courage		command = { type = max_organization which = [scout_fighter] value = [10] }
Aircraft Positioning (5)		fighter_tactics		command = { type = max_organization which = [2_seat_fighter] value = [10] }
Dogfighting (5)		individual_courage		command = { type = max_organization which = [escort_fighter] value = [10] }
Wingman Doctrine (5)		small_unit_tactics		

Recon Specialization	1914			
Optical Instruments (5)		piloting		command = { type = task_efficiency which = [ground_attack] value = [.2] }
Cameras & Photography (5)		aeronautics		command = { type = task_efficiency which = [interdiction] value = [.3] }
Battlefield Observation (5)		fighter_tactics		command = { type = max_organization which = [recon_bomber] value = [10] }
Pilot Recon Training (5)		training		command = { type = morale which = [air_force] value = [10] }
Recon Analysis (5)		centralized_execution		Army detection Chance us 5

Naval Specialization	1914			
Naval Air Concepts (5)		aircraft_testing		command = { type = task_efficiency which = [naval_strike] value = [.3] }
Naval Air Bases (5)		naval_engineering		command = { type = enable_task which = convoy_air_raiding }
Naval Missions Concepts (5)		naval_training		command = { type = max_organization which = [naval_bomber] value = [10] }
Naval Recon (5)		training		
Aerial Identification (5)		seamanship		

Air-Based Counter-Air	1915			command = { type = task_efficiency which = [airborne_assault] value = [.3] }
Attack Interference (5)		fighter_tactics		command = { type = max_organization which = [scout_fighter] value = [10] }
Defensive Patrols (5)		centralized_execution		command = { type = max_organization which = [2_seat_fighter] value = [10] }
Interception (5)		decentralized_execution		command = { type = max_organization which = [escort_fighter] value = [5] }
Airbase Attack (5)		fighter_tactics		command = { type = morale which = [scout_fighter] value = [10] }
Fighter Cover (5)		combined_arms_focus		command = { type = morale which = [2_seat_fighter] value = [10] }
				command = { type = morale which = [escort_fighter] value = [5] }

Convoy Escort	1916			
Convoy Concepts (4)		large_taskforce_tactics		command = { type = task_efficiency which = [convoy_air_raiding] value = [.2] }
Convoy Theory (4)		large_taskforce_tactics		Convoy Escort Efficiency 0.1
Extended Naval Missions (4)		aeronautics		command = { type = max_organization which = [seaplane] value = [5] }
ASW-Convoy Theory (4)		fighter_tactics		command = { type = morale which = [seaplane] value = [5] }
Battlefleet Communications (4)		centralized_execution		command = { type = max_organization which = [escort_fighter] value = [5] }
				command = { type = morale which = [escort_fighter] value = [5] }

Land-Based Counter-Air	1916			
Civic Preparedness (4)		training		command = { type = night_defense which = [scout_fighter] value = [30] }
Civic Air Guards (4)		centralized_execution		command = { type = night_defense which = [2_seat_fighter] value = [30] }
Blackout Controls (4)		management		command = { type = night_defense which = [escort_fighter] value = [30] }
Searchlighting (4)		electronics		Surprise Chance air 15
Warning System (4)		decentralized_execution		

Communications	1917			
Late Recon Theory (4)		fighter_tactics		command = { type = task_efficiency which = [ground_attack] value = [.1] }
Adv. Instrumentation (4)		aeronautics		command = { type = task_efficiency which = [interdiction] value = [.3] }
Leaflet Dropping (4)		fighter_tactics		command = { type = max_organization which = [recon_bomber] value = [10] }
Search & Rescue (4)		training		command = { type = morale which = [recon_bomber] value = [10] }
Resupply & Rescue (4)		small_unit_tactics		Army detection Chance us 5

ASW Warfare	1917			
ASW Concepts (4)		bomber_tactics		Max Positioning destroyer 0.3
ASW Theory (4)		bomber_tactics		Min Positioning destroyer 0.1
Submarine Recon (4)		fighter_tactics		Convoy Escort Efficiency 0.1
Naval Communications (4)		naval_training		command = { type = max_organization which = [seaplane] value = [5] }
Submarine Strike (4)		individual_courage		command = { type = morale which = [seaplane] value = [5] }

Strategic Bombing	1917			
Late Bomber Theory (4)		bomber_tactics		command = { type = enable_task which = strategic_bombardment }
Late Airship Theory (4)		bomber_tactics		command = { type = enable_task which = logistical_strike }
Production Strike (4)		piloting		command = { type = max_organization which = [strategic_bomber] value = [10] }
Transportation Strike (4)		piloting		command = { type = max_organization which = [airship] value = [10] }
Manufacturing Strike (4)		piloting		command = { type = morale which = [strategic_bomber] value = [10] }
				command = { type = morale which = [airship] value = [10] }

Close Air Support	1918			
Late Bomber Theory (4)		bomber_tactics		command = { type = enable_task which = installation_strike }
Divisional Strike (4)		large_unit_tactics		command = { type = enable_task which = runway_cratering }
Corps Strike (4)		small_unit_tactics		command = { type = max_organization which = [contour_bomber] value = [10] }
Battlefield Coordination (4)		combined_arms_focus		command = { type = morale which = [contour_bomber] value = [10] }
CAS Concepts (4)		bomber_tactics		

Maritime Attack	1918			
Maritime Attack Concepts (4)		bomber_tactics		command = { type = enable_task which = port_strike }
Maritime Attack Theory (4)		individual_courage		command = { type = task_efficiency which = [convoy_air_raiding] value = [.2] }
Naval Air Ordnance (4)		general_equipment		command = { type = task_efficiency which = [naval_strike] value = [.3] }
Ship Targeting (4)		piloting		
Battlefleet Coordination (4)		centralized_execution		

Classical Air Theory	1919			
Air Control (5)		fighter_tactics		command = { type = morale which = [air_force] value = [10] }
Air Method (5)		bomber_tactics		command = { type = max_organization which = [air_force] value = [10] }
Substitution (5)		aircraft_testing		
Battlefield Expansion (5)		combined_arms_focus		
Joint Operations (5)		combined_arms_focus		

Formal Air Doctrines	1919			
Air-Land Cooperation (5)		combined_arms_focus		command = { type = task_efficiency which = [logistical_strike] value = [.3] }
Air-Sea Cooperation (5)		combined_arms_focus		command = { type = task_efficiency which = [strategic_bombardment] value = [.3] }
Clausewitzian Integration (5)		bomber_tactics		command = { type = task_efficiency which = [installation_strike] value = [.3] }
Air Superiority (5)		fighter_tactics		command = { type = task_efficiency which = [runway_cratering] value = [.3] }
Morale Targeting (5)		bomber_tactics		command = { type = task_efficiency which = [port_strike] value = [.3] }

Edit: removed "airborne assault" effects.

 

[Allenby]

Well, this is excellent.

The tree is nearing completion.

 

[Zuckergußgebäck]

Looks like the rar´s got short-sighted...

As long as you let me fiddle about with the backgrounds, I won´t interfere too much...