Teutonic Order Research (1492-1561)

[Savant]

Errant -

I think as recent as IGC 1.9 Ingermanland was a Russian colony level six. It had been changed to that in IGC 1.5x and then with the 2.0 versions, the IGC now has these other options but not the Russian colony option.

The problem with the colony was that Russia never seemed to get around to making it a city.. even in the 1700's. And I think this was the case almost always, certainly with me.

So I think Doomie and Hartmann decided that it was better, since there was doubt about the status of Ingermanland, and it was also later a key province amidst the Russo-Svenske struggle to allocate it as a city to one of the key players (Order, Sweden, Pskov). I don't know why Russia was left out though as one of these players and why Pskov was included. Perhaps bc Pskov is a vassal of Russia and Russia would ultimately assume control anyway.

I think The Order ought to have galleys also and I have edited my own buildingcost file to reflect this.

BTW, a list of cheat codes appears in a file called "cheatcodes" in the \config subdirectory. Here is what is says:

richelieu = allows you to control all military units (toggle ON/OFF)
pappenheim = toggles Fog of War ON/OFF
wallenstein = allows you to review the status of all provinces (toggle ON/OFF)
columbus = explores all provinces
gustavus = increases land technology level
drake = increases naval technology level
cromwell = increases infrastructure level
polo = increases trade level
oranje = sets Stability to +3
cortez = eliminates all natives (toggle ON/OFF)
alba = there will be no more revolts (toggle ON/OFF)
tilly = the A.I. will not declare war (toggle ON/OFF)
montezuma = adds 50.000 ducats to treasury
pocahontas = adds 10 colonists
dagama = adds 10 merchants
swift = adds 10.000 population to capital province
tordesillas = triggers the effects of the Treaty of Tordesillas (allows Spain and Portugal to attack anyone outside of Europe) (toggle ON/OFF)
luther = triggers the effects of the Reformation (allows nations to convert to protestantism) (toggle ON/OFF)
calvin = triggers the effects of John Calvin (allows nations to convert to reformed christian) (toggle ON/OFF)
trent = triggers the effects of the Council of Trent (cancels effects of Johan Calvin and Treaty of Tordesillas) (toggle ON/OFF)

shift + D = Explore province under cursor
shift + U = "Unexplore" province under cursor

Event Engine question. I saw historical events to worsen diplo relationships but are they any to improve them?

Yes, only random events do this though. Usually the changes are small.. 10 points across all nations or 25 for relations with a specific nation. You could also set changes in relations to occur in a "pre-ordained" manner. I think these "events" would appear in the 1492.inc file.

Colonist Question: Is there an easy way to get colonists to work for minor countries that has be veryified? I have experimented with a number of things but nothing so far has worked. Besides a shipyard.

Well.. if the minor has a coastal province it has a chace of getting colonists etc. through random events. Usually a few of these will occur.. but not always for all minors with coastal provinces. The only guaranteed way is to give the country a shipyard.

 

[ErrantOne]

Savant,

Thanks for all the info! WOOT!

IGC 2.0k allows Russia to have Ingermanland as a lvl 2 colony if the SWE Ingermanland box is not checked. by 1560s (hands off game), nothing happened to that area and russia has a lvl 3-4 colony. So it is looking pretty good in respect to ingermanland to be useful by mid 1600s for russia AI. POL pretty much took all of LAT territory only livonia is left (mid 1550s war took memel & estonia.).

Cheat codes...
Council of Trent. Thought that was for counter-reform catholics to convert protestants as a peace term? With this effect it would make the Treaty of Tordellis more powerful, not cancelled.


Colonists...
Sad news...Was hoping that by adding LAT to the colonists.csv file they would get Colonists (and tweaking the .inc file too...but it does not seem to work.) Giving LAT a shipyard seems unbalancing for them. When I put on in Kurland for the heck of it..they could build 16ships at a time. To much power for POL when they take it over



Events....

Hmmm.... wonder if there is a mapping of random events to historical events. I only played one random event game so far...thought I would get used to historical events only for now.

Thanks again for the info,

ErrantOne


PS Editted this in: Just setup the following in IGC2.0k....

* LAT can now build galleys
* LAT has E.P as national territory and Capital
* slight addition to LAT military (10 units) to reflect added PRU army strength.
* Commented out PRU and LAT mil-alliance.
* LAT removed Pskov from NT (National Territory no historic reason to be there as far as I can tell.)
* LAT added Danzig and Western Prussia as national territory. (these were lost to poland pre-1492.)
* DAN removed estonia from NT.
* SWE removed Livonia and Kurland from NT. left estonia on NT.
* note: POL has all but memel and E.P. on NT. (in standard IGC, maybe add these to list latter.)
* Gave LAT temp CB on russia to 1792 to reflect russian claims/interest in estonia and livonia.
* LAT temp CB (1525)to reflect LAT dislike of DAN from diplomatic problems in early/mid 1400s. (This may need to go away. but previously LAT had perm CB because DAN had estonia on NT. no historic reason at all for this.)

(Going to run this a few times then start tweaking diplomatic relations with DAN, SWE, POL, RUS, PSK, and possibly brandenburg. May also just -200 all non christian lands as well.


Please feel free to comment everyone. (dont be avoid being critical if you think it is warranted.)

 

[BiB]

It is inderdeed the Edict of Tolerance and not Trent that is supposed to end Tordesillas.

But it is possible to get them soem colonial dynamism as I succeeded in doing that for a tag. Don't asm me the ins and outs though but in teh colonists.csv replace the OMA tag with LAT and enter numbers that u deem appropriate. The actual numbers are a bit hard to decide on though as it isn't simply the number of settlers u get, that is used. Maybe some testing is acquired as a colonial dynamism of 4 settlers a year doesn't sound very plausible for them.

The Order turns protestant in the game though (unless u play it) so that's at least 1 settler a year, which with a later added shipyard is 2 settlers a year, whoich can amount to a whoel lot for a non colonial nation their size. And if u don't go protestant, CR catholics also get a setler a year.

 

[Demetrios]

Originally posted by ErrantOne

As far as changing the name being too difficult, I am not sure on that. Seems like it could be done. The internal symbol is LAT would lead me to believe they were originally Livonian Knights focused (or maybe just named afte Latvia?) and were renamed to T.O. at somepoint in the design. If I am not mistaken the black cross and way background is not of the Teutonic order (thought they were red cross on white), not really sure to be honest.

The Livonian Order had the red cross on white. I'm pretty sure that the Teutonic Order's coat was a black cross on white

 

[Demetrios]

Originally posted by ErrantOne

* LAT removed Pskov from NT (National Territory no historic reason to be there as far as I can tell.)

Well, they did try to conquer the Pskov-Novgorod area earlier in their history. The result was the infamous battle of Lake Peipus in 1242 against Alexander Nevsky, where the heavily armored knights of the Order found themselves on thin ice, literally...

 

[ErrantOne]

Hands off testing

Interesting thing finally happened in the baltic. Amoung the changes was removing SWE as a vassal of DEN. By just doing this, SWE declares war on LAT very early (1495). So setting SWE - LAT relations to 0 means that LAT is not a top enemy. Well, in the one game run so far SWE declared war on DAN in 1513. In the peace shortly there after SWE claimed 1 province (nice one). Not sure, but this may be my first time seeing SWE declare war on DEN in the 1492-1520 timeframe. What i have been seeing is SWE dropping vassal status between 1520-1522 (seen this over many games).

With the above changes LAT may be a bit to powerful, so after more games they may be adjusted down a little in starting tech, number of troops, initial population of kurland/east prussia and/or initial cash. Over the rest of this week, I will continue to experiment with the baltic with IGC 2.0k. Focus being, SWE-DAN events and weakening LAT a bit more so POL can get around to grabbing bits and pieces along some semi-historical timeline.

Anyone know if Danzig was really a significant trade center during this period? Was thinking of moving to POL-Lith. capitial province.


Demetrios,

Thanks for the info. Forgot about the order's push into Novgorod. Even so it seems odd to have them pushing on into RUS territory with the big scary monster pol-lith right next to them and ready to claim any pieces of LAT territory they can get their hands on.

Errantone

 

[hjarg]

Thanks for the info. Forgot about the order's push into Novgorod. Even so it seems odd to have them pushing on into RUS territory with the big scary monster pol-lith right next to them and ready to claim any pieces of LAT territory they can get their hands on.

Not really. It happened in 1242, remeber. First, relations with the Order and Poles were better back then. Second, it would have been utter blasphemy to attack Order. Third, and most important: there was no Pol-Lith in 1242. The entered personal union in 1385, before that here were independant Lithuanians.

 

[ErrantOne]

Hjarg,

Sorry my fault. I meant it seems odd at the start of the game (1492) to have LAT still desire to push into Pskov then they have the big scary Pol-Lith. monster right next to them.

If I have time this week, I might look closer to the order's pre 1492 history more. Seemed like it was mid to late 1300's when Poland smacked the order out of Danzig and Western Prussia and made East Prussia a vassal (at least nominally) under Teutonic control. Also it makes strategic sense to kick poland from the baltic (if possible).
Makes me want to play poland and crush the order ASAP actually.

This is why Pskov was removed from NT and Danzig & Western Prussia added. Not sure one is better then another, but I notice when playing LAT my eye is always on those two provinces more then any others connected to LAT lands.

ErrantOne

 

[hjarg]

Actually Order was strong in 14th century. Only after battle of Grünwald in 1410 when Poland-Lithuania utterly crushed the Order it begun to fade. But do research it, it's an intresting subject

One good book i can even recommend, not sure you can get your hands on it though.. Balthasar Russow's "Chronicles of Livonia". Follows Livonic war mostly, but has a good part of pre-1492 history as well.

 

[Demetrios]

Originally posted by ErrantOne
Hjarg,

Sorry my fault. I meant it seems odd at the start of the game (1492) to have LAT still desire to push into Pskov then they have the big scary Pol-Lith. monster right next to them.

If I have time this week, I might look closer to the order's pre 1492 history more. Seemed like it was mid to late 1300's when Poland smacked the order out of Danzig and Western Prussia and made East Prussia a vassal (at least nominally) under Teutonic control. Also it makes strategic sense to kick poland from the baltic (if possible).
Makes me want to play poland and crush the order ASAP actually.

This is why Pskov was removed from NT and Danzig & Western Prussia added. Not sure one is better then another, but I notice when playing LAT my eye is always on those two provinces more then any others connected to LAT lands.

ErrantOne

Poland only took those territories after the Second Peace of Thorn in 1466, That is when the Order became a vassal of Poland as well. At the beginning of the game, these changes are relatively new and therefore fresh in the minds of both sides.

 

[Doomdark]

Interesting research, Errant...

...but I am not certain it will affect the IGC.

* Remove Pskov from LAT national territories list. (no clue why it is there)

The whole "core province" concept is very ambiguous, but considering previous wars it seems like the Order had an interest in taking the city.

* East Prussia made a national territory of the order, not a vassal, and put the capital of the order there. List Kurland as second nation territory (would not surprise me if EU will just pick the next national territory on the list as the new capital when the old one is taken by another country.)

I am not sure what you are getting at here; capitals cannot move around in EU. However, I do think that the Duchy of Prussia should remain a separate entity from the Order.

* Poland-Lithuania should want East Prussia, Livonia, Kurland, memal(in that order). Russia wants Estonia. (Seems like Sweden just does not want Russia on the Baltic at all)

It is not possible to specify any kind of priority to core provinces. However, I am pretty happy with the current assignment.

* Odd thing to look at. Holstein starts off as a vassal state to Denmark but I could not find anything to justify this kind of connection.. Unless researched more, suggest putting them in RM and military alliance with high diplo number.

The issue has been exhaustively researched in previous threads. Aside from initial historicity the present solution has proven to work well in the game.

* The Order is listed as Orthodox tech development in IGC. This should be changed to Latin (IMO) to reflect the strong German ties the order maintained.

This was not done lightly. The idea is that the Order was a fading nation with small hope of survival in the long term. Arguably the same could be said for the Hansa. I am open to discussion of this however.

*The order can not build galleys at all, but can build real warships. Let the order build galleys, if they are commonly available within the Baltic by other nations.

Hmm, maybe... The Baltic type of "galley" did not, AFAIK, become common until the Great Northern War when Peter I ordered them built to avoid the deep-keeled Swedish fleet. It is no biggie though.

*Consider adding a chance of revolts in both Sweden (TBD--needs more research) and Order lands (Estonia/Livonia)

It is already being considered for Sweden. The Dacke uprising around 1543 is a candidate, as well as the civil war between King Sigismund I and Duke Charles.

* Need to review all CBs on against the Order. Denmark as one for reasons unknown to me. Not sure why Sweden has one either. Russia I can see (with Baltic ambitions) and Poland as well (just cause).

Again, remember that core provinces are used for many purposes. Sometimes to specify national identity, sometimes to encourage historical expansion. In the case of the Baltic provinces the present assignment has proven to work well. I am hesitant to change it.

 

[Vandelay]

Flinging two cents:

On galleys:
First mediterranean style galleys in the Baltic were built by Gustav Wasa by Venetian shipwrights in Stockholm. They were used in the war against the Russians in the 1550's. Source here is the swedsih book "Skärgårdsflottan" ("The Archipelagic Fleet) - sadly not extant in English.

IMO all nations should be able to build galleys (shipwrights were highly mobile) it's the sailing warships that should be restricted (to European nations only).

On Danzig:
Yes, Danzig should be a CoT - it was a major such in the 16th century though it declined afterwards. Warsaw was never a CoT, wasn't Polands biggest city and wasn't even their capital when the game begins in 1492. Source here Kirby's book on the Baltic.

On The Order:
The Order was in such a state of flux, feudal relationships and alliances that EU will only be, at best, an approximation of what went on. I personally feel that the IGC to some extent has concentrated too much on the fragmented Baltic, making the rest of Europe seem more consolidated than it truly was.

Cheers,
Vandelay

 

[Doomdark]

First mediterranean style galleys in the Baltic were built by Gustav Wasa by Venetian shipwrights in Stockholm. They were used in the war against the Russians in the 1550's. Source here is the swedsih book "Skärgårdsflottan" ("The Archipelagic Fleet) - sadly not extant in English.

You live and you learn. I will make it so the Order can also build galleys.

 

[ErrantOne]

Doomdark,

Please don't take anything that I have said as a criticism. They are just questions inorder to learn more.

Pskov:

The whole "core province" concept is very ambiguous, but considering previous wars it seems like the Order had an interest in taking the city.

This choice is probably as good as any other for the AI.

Moving Capitials:

I am not sure what you are getting at here; capitals cannot move around in EU. However, I do think that the Duchy of Prussia should remain a separate entity from the Order.

All this means is that in my 'experiment' the capital was moved from Livonia to East Prussia. Livonia was more the capitial of the Livonian Knights then the Teutonic order anyway.

Prussia: Unless a human plays prussia it is a non-event. In the IGC 2.0k prussia is usually gobbled up by POL long before 1525 and mil-annexed. As a human playing LAT, you really need to mil annex them as soon as possible to avoid POL declaring war on you and doing it. If the player does the mil annex this delays the first POL DoW on you by 10+years. Since you are forced to diplo-annex them you mess up alot of diplo relations, which where not good to start either.

My goal for experimenting with LAT is simple. Make it a somewhat fun (althought almost certainly doomed) minor for a human, while keeping it in at least has historically accurate as the IGC 2.0k. Savant mentioned in one of his posts that usually the order will fade out by the early 1600s. With the changes I made so far 10+ games into 1530-1580s, by 1580 after prussia/kurland are pol-lith provinces, and it is only a matter of time before russia/pol want estonia/livonia. With the capital in prussia it seems to make memel/prussia the last 2 provinces taken. Also, when combining E.P with the rest of the order the population of kurland/E.P was slightly lowered to keep the knights in check during AI games.

If someone enjoys playing a VERY hard starting minor the Order is GREAT fun. best game so far has the order nibbling off chunks of DAN in the mid 1590s, but a strong alliance of POL and others just DoWed me. Usually LAT goes down in flames by mid 1500s for me, with an expand or die strategy. POL is the main threat, and makes sense for the AI to want danzig/western prussia alot more then pskov, imo, but just my opinion as a player.

Holstein issue:

The issue has been exhaustively researched in previous threads. Aside from initial historicity the present solution has proven to work well in the game.

No problems, this was just a curiousity. After watching many HO games and seeing the same pattern (rebel, independancy, (short life), re-annexed, rebel, ......) It made me curious.

It is not possible to specify any kind of priority to core provinces. However, I am pretty happy with the current assignment.

Yes, you are right. This was one of the experiments that was eventually tried to see if the game engine tried to retake national provinces by the order they were specified in on the list (had to try it. )

On Swedish revolts:

It is already being considered for Sweden. The Dacke uprising around 1543 is a candidate, as well as the civil war between King Sigismund I and Duke Charles.

Revolts: Consider adding the revolt in 1517. If I recall this is what eventaully lead to the Vasa's taking power and the end of the Kalmar union. a single revolt event would probably do it.

I noticed you moved up the end date of SWE ending vassalization. Good, SWE ends up a russian ally way to much in 2.0k. I set the date at 1497 (appointment of a SWE king, forgot name). This seems to work well as the SWE will sometimes have a minor war with DAN pre-1520.

Tech advance:

This was not done lightly. The idea is that the Order was a fading nation with small hope of survival in the long term. Arguably the same could be said for the Hansa. I am open to discussion of this however.

For an AI player, have not noticed anything significate by changing it to latin. For a human, if you survive past 1550s (rare for me) you need any advantage you can possible get. Since historically the order had strong german ties, just wanted to experiment with this change. The cost of cav/art is expensive enough to limit you severly anyway. My armies are usually alot of inf, 2-4kcav. and enough artillery to take 1-3 provinces and prey for peace before being wiped out.

Again, remember that core provinces are used for many purposes. Sometimes to specify national identity, sometimes to encourage historical expansion. In the case of the Baltic provinces the present assignment has proven to work well. I am hesitant to change it.

I dont blame you for be hesitant to change anything. You and others have put alot of work into the IGC. What kind of data would you need from me to consider making some changes to LAT?

What I would suggest is to leave the super-prussia option, if someone wants to play the prussia/brandenburg unification scenerio. Not sure if anyone plays a strait E.P option as a human, but even that is historically off (as prussia was a vassel of POL, not LAT pre-1525, and post 1525 was totally disconnected from the Livonian Knights (who in 1561 also became a duchy under POL in kurland).)

The unified E.P with the teutonic orders means you start as somewhat powerful minor surrounded by major powers (or powerful minor in the case of DAN?) with a fighting chance to survive as a human (maybe).

Again, great job with the IGC. Without the IGC, I probably would have already lost interest in EU.

ErantOne.

 

[unmerged(3512)]

http://orb.rhodes.edu/encyclop/religion/monastic/opsahl1.html

Historical info on the Teutonic order..

 

[unmerged(4210)]

Interesting...

Well I think implementing all the tribal minutia of 15-16th century Europe would be extremely difficult, just for interface reasons. I think the current set up is very exciting, just because its the only somewhat realistic portrayal of Europe that I've ever seen in a game. It might be something left for the real history nerds in scenarios and mods.

I am a Slavic history buff and I liked how there is a permanent Casus Belli between the Russia and the Teutons. Alexandr Nevskii did womp the Teutonic Order's ass in the 13th century, and they were particularly cruel to the Slavic pagans of the area, wiping out entire populations in waves of conversion. A bunch of mean Catholic Germans in the area probably didn't make their presence in Slavic lands very welcome. Ancient tribal animosity indeed. They were a big thorn in the side of Russia, especially as the Mongol yoke was beating down on them in the east and south, they found no support/friendship in the Knights.

Riurik