Home Trending Latest threads New posts Developer diaries

The Asian Empires Improved Grand Campaign

Jump to latest Follow Reply
  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
U

unmerged(4065)

Sergeant
May 26, 2001
72
0
Visit site
Hello, in the interest of expanding the "Far East" section of Europa Universalis, I am introducing this topic. Someone with far better computer skills would need to incorporate these changes since I am no programmer, but rather a researcher. I know there has been some work done on some of the Asian countries and that work can be included here as well.

I will begin with Viet Nam since that is something I am far more familiar with. First however, there needs to be some DRASTIC changes right off the bat. Whether or not this can actually be accomplished (ie hard coded) is another matter.

To begin with, Dai Viet has only 4 provinces. England has a damn lot more. Which is bigger? Let's take a look at the CIA World Fact Book.

For England:

Area:
total: 244,820 sq km
land: 241,590 sq km
water: 3,230 sq km

For Viet Nam:

Area:
total: 329,560 sq km
land: 325,360 sq km
water: 4,200 sq km

Hmmm, what gives? Its my opinion that the EU team depended too heavily upon the Mercator projection map as opposed to the equal area Galls-Peter map (granted both are rectangular maps and therefore imperfect). In other words, bull shit. Now, granted, this is modern data and borders have changed in the past 500 years, but predominantly, Dai Viet was still larger than England.

Second, the icons/graphics should be in the realm of Chinese/Japanese soldiers and cities, not Indian graphics. Viet Nam has historically straddled both Sino and Hindu influences because it serves as a gateway to SE Asia, but it was and still is predominantly Confucian in origin. Viet Nam, in addition to Corea, China, and Japan, make up the four "chopstick" civilizations.

Third, there should be two navies at the seaport of Ha Noi and Hoi An.

Fourth, a CoT should also be at Hoi An.

Fifth, all populations should be doubled. Maybe even tripled.

Sixth, Dai Viet SHOULD have the ability to build cannons, albeit expensively. With regards to firearms, Europe was marginally superior to SE Asian arms until the invention of the machine gun and long range cannons.

Seventh, I would suggest that the Dai Viet army be raised to a total of 100K army. 60 in Ha Noi, 20 in Hoa An, and 10K in the other provinces to represent armed militias.

Eighth, there should be a permanent Casus Belli against China and Siam. Minor Casus Belli against Champa, Laos, and Cambodia. Allies with Laos and Japan. Siam should be allied with Champa and Cambodia. Dai Viet should have favorable relations with Burma.

Nineth, Dai Viet should have knowledge of India and most if not all of the South Pacific islands, especially Java.

Tenth, PLEASE ELIMINATE THE PERMANENT TERRA INCOGNITO. OK, I don't know if that's actually possible, but PLEASE, PLEASE get rid of the damn thing.

Eleventh, there should be a separate Khmer Kingdom (Champa) as well as Cambodia and Laos. Burma too.

Twelveth, the capital should be in Ha Noi not Hue. That comes later. Currently its known as Dong Do, but later the capital moves to Hue under the Tay Son Dynasty.

Thirteenth, state religion should be Buddhist.

Fourteenth, Dai Viet should have the ability to promote Bailiffs. Call it the promotion of mandarins and civil servants who took care of the infrastructure, population, education and collected taxes.

Fifteenth, does Dai Viet get colonists in the IGC? One of the predominant themes during this time period is the expansion southward and the colonization of the former Khmer/Champa kingdom.

Sixteenth, Dai Viet, to offset the increased income, should have constant rebellions. Not religious distress, like most East Asian countries Viet Nam had a civil religion, but lots and lots of peasant uprisings in the southern portion. Like, lots.
 
Vietnamese Country Dossier

I am now including a dossier on Dai Viet of the time period. I have also included sections on strategy, commerce, allies, and notable persons.




Strategy

Dai Viet (“The Great Viets”) has the unenviable position of straddling the South China Sea. It is, for all intents and purposes, a besieged country with enemies in all five compass directions. To the north lies the Chinese juggernaut awaiting the slightest insult in propriety and etiquette to use as an excuse to recapture the rich Vietnamese lands and its trade routes. To the west are minor countries, pawns between Dai Viet and its old time rival, the Kingdom of Siam. To the south are the remains of the Kingdom of Champa, allies of Siam. And to the east is the sea, a source of both wealth and devastation from Chinese invasion fleets and Japanese dwarf pirates. And in the center, Dai Viet suffers from constant rebellions and teeters on the edge of civil war. Outside of the Balkans, Viet Nam is perhaps one of the most fought over pieces of real estate in the world.


Commerce

Command of the rich trade route is vital for Dai Viet’s survival. Trade envoys from as far away as India and ancient Rome have called to Dai Viet’s port. Traders from Java, Sumatra, Malaya, Japan, Corea, and even Siam make their way to Dai Viet. It is Dai Viet’s position and dominance over the South China Sea that caused China to conquer it in the first place and why China still covets the land to this day.

In Hoa An, according to a map of the Hong Duc Reign in the 15th century, at first it was named The Great Champa Port, a seaport of the Champa Kingdom. The Vietnamese seaport of Hoi An was later established in the late 16th century and achieved a thriving status of mercantile excellence during the 17th and 18th century until declining in the 19th. Records show that European countries like Holland, Portugal, France, Britain and Italy traded here.

Hoi An was directly influenced by foreign trade policies practiced by China and Japan. The Ming in China with their closed door policy did not allow their ships to trade with foreign countries in Southeast Asia until 1567 while continuing the ban on the export of a number of important materials to Japan.

During that period, Japan desperately needed high-quality Chinese raw silk for their royal Court and war materials for their army. To circumvent the obstacle (shogunates) in Japan, first the Toyotomi and then the Tokugawa began to issue special permits to Shunsen ships for travels to Southeast Asia to obtain Chinese products. This policy continued until 1636 when a period of trade between Japan and Vietnam developed, mainly through the town of Hoi An. In 1636, Japan clamped a ban on foreign trade and as a result, business between it and Hoi An dwindled down to a mere trickle

But within that period, 1604 to 1635, there were 124 licensed Japanese Shunsen ships that made its way to Ha Noi and Hoi An. And this number does not include unlicensed ships as well as ships previous to that period. The trade consisted of Japan’s gold, silver, bronze, and war copper (to cast cannons) for Dai Viet’s raw supplies including silk, sugar, spices, sandalwood and calamba.

The overthrow of the Ming by the Qing in 1649 caused great numbers of Chinese to migrate to Southeast Asia. Also the war between the Qing and the Trinh in Taiwan had the effect of diverting Taiwan's trade to Southeast Asia. Another beneficial aspect of Hoi An, in addition to its control of the sea trade routes, was the Portuguese presence which assisted the Nguyen rulers in improving the casting of cannons, for a price of course.

In that context, Hoi An with its proximity to international sea routes, its well-protected harbor and the great natural resources of Quang Nam province, naturally became part of the regional trade network. Dutch had their trading post there from 1636-1641.

Navies affecting the area include China, Siam, and rogue Japanese pirates, the woku. While China’s navy has slowly started to fall to pieces because of the Ming Ban, it still retained some 140 warships out of an original 400 (circa 1474). During the mid-sixteenth century, Siam was economically depressed but still retained a strong maritime and sea force.


Allies

For a time, before Japan closed its doors to the outside, there developed a strong friendship between Dai Viet and Japan. At the height of the trade relations, the friendship between two countries developed quickly at both national and local level. Nguyen Lord and Tokugawa exchanged letters and gifts annually through Japanese merchants. In 1604, Lord Nguyen Hoang even took the initiative to adopt Hunamoto Yabeiji, a Japanese merchant. Later on, Lord Nguyen Phuc Nguyen, Lord Nguyen Hoang's son, tried to improve upon relationship even further. According to Phan Khoang in Viet Su, Xu Dang Trong (Vietnamese history, the Inner region), Lord Nguyen Phuc Nguyen married his daughter, Princess Ngoc Khoa, to Araki Shutaro, another Japanese merchant. Lord Nguyen even permitted Araki to have a royal Vietnamese name as Nguyen Taro, called Hien Hung. Nguyen Lord also wrote to some other Japanese merchants, Honda Kouzukenosuke and Chaya Shiro Jiro encouraging them to pursue trading in the Inner Region.

Burma and Dai Viet make natural allies against Siam.


Notables Persons

Le Thanh Tong
Country: Dai Viet
Skill:
Administrative: 9
Military: 6
Diplomacy: 6
Period of Reign: 1460 – 1497
Type: Monarch

Le Thanh Tong came to the throne in 1460 and changed the dynastic title twice: Quang Thuan (1460 - 1469) and Hong Duc (1470 - 1497). In almost 40 years of reign, he led the Le dynasty to its peak in all political, social, military and cultural fields. Historian Ngo Si Lien praised him as "the king who founded the reign, substantially expanded the land and the boundaries, bettered things and was deservedly seen as a heroic and talented emperor".

Le Thanh Tong was an enthusiastic reformer, constructor, and poet. He quickly put an end to the fractional situation in the court and promptly organised the national construction with tremendous and bold reforms. As for the administrative apparatus, he eradicated the old administrative system from Le Loi’s time. The country was divided in to 12 regions (dao) from five regions previously. Besides the reform of the State mechanism, he paid particular attention to measures for developing the economy, revising the land and taxation system, encouraging the development of agriculture, farming, cattle breeding, the opening of more plantations, and land clearance and reclamation. His efforts aimed at building and developing the country were reflected in his edicts and decrees such as the Decree on Agricultural Encouragement, the Decree on Plantation Establishment, the Decree on Administrative System, etc.

In Le Thanh Tong’s time the armed forces for national defense were greatly strengthened. The army was divided into five sections and a commander-in-chief headed each one. Each section was divided into ve and so, two subordinate levels. In addition, there were two armies, outside and inside, each of which consisted of sub-units called ti and ve. Besides the regular armies, Le Thanh Tong paid particular attention to local reserve forces. The promulgation of 43 military rules showed that army discipline was strictly kept to ensure its high combativeness.

The Hong Duc code was one of the achievements to be proud of in Le Thanh Tong’s career and also in his time. The advent of this code was seen as an event marking a high level of civilization of Vietnamese society in the 15th century. Le Thanh Tong, who strictly abode by the laws, advocated and promulgated the Hong Duc code. It was he who withdrew the leadership from admiral Le Thiet because his son rode a horse at full speed in the street in the daytime and connived his servants to maltreat other people. Le Thanh Tong often told the court mandarin: "The law constitutes the common rules of the kingdom which I myself and you have to abide by."

From the cultural point of view, Le Thanh Tong had the merit of ushering in an era of national culture with its own identity, confirming a new stage of development of the nation’s cultural history. Together with the establishment of new institutions, he speeded up the educational development and training of talent. Never before had the feudal Vietnam seen such a prosperous education and examination system as well as such a high role played by the scholars as in Le Thanh Tong’s time. Besides the role of a National Academy (Han lam vien), a National Historical Institute (Quoc su vien) and a National University (Thai hoc vien), the Imperial College (Quoc Tu Giam) also served as a major cultural and educational institution. He instructed the building of storehouses to keep books, particularly the establishment of Hoi Tao Dan (a type of Literary Academy) which attracted most contemporary prominent scholars with himself being the chief.

Nguyen Hue
Country: Dai Viet
Skill:
Administrative: 4
Military: 9
Diplomacy: 3
Period of Reign: 1788 - 1792
Type: Monarch/General

Three brothers, the Nguyen brothers of the Tay Son village, raised a rebellion in 1771. They were warmly accepted by the miserable peasants and quickly became a notable force. In 1778, the Tay Son brothers terminated the Nguyen reigns and took control over the middle of Dai Viet from Gianh River to the south and Cochinchina. Nguyen Nhac, the eldest brother of Tay Son ascended the throne, proclaimed himself Emperor Thai Duc, and established the Tay Son Dynasty with capital in Phu Xuan (Hue).

Nguyen Anh, the only survived prince of Nguyen Lords family, escaped to the Siam (Thailand) Kingdom to call for the help. In 1784, the Siamese invaded Vietnam with 20,000 soldiers and a navy of 300 ships. Nguyen Hue, the youngest brother and talented general of Tay Son, directed a inspired ambush that killed most of Siam troop and ships in a section of Rach Gam - Xoai Mut River, stopped the intervention from Siam. In 1786, Nguyen Nhac sent his army directed by Nguyen Hue to occupy Thuan Hoa citadel of Trinh. After wiped out the Trinhs from Thuan Hoa, Nguyen Hue continued to go north without informing Nhac's Court and exterminated the Trinhs while announcing that for supporting the Le Dynasty. He easily occupied Thang Long.

At the behest of Le Chieu Thong, a deposed Vietnamese ruler, the Manchu controlled China invaded Dai Viet. In 1788, Manchu troop numbering 290,000 soldiers invaded Dai Viet and occupied Thang Long (present day Ha Noi). The Manchu backed Le Chieu Thong to rule the north in China’s name. In about 10 days at the beginning of 1789, Nguyen Hue, the Tay Son Emperor again headed the north and completely destroyed the Manchu, gained the control of the north and ascended the throne.

In 1792, Nguyen Hue suddenly died at 40.

Nguyen Phuoc Nguyen
Country: Dai Viet
Type: Admiral

Nguyen Phuoc Nguyen and sixth son of Lord Nguyen Hoang, when still in Thuan Hoa, in 1585 at the Cuaviet Port, defeated 5 warships led by Hien Quy, a Japanese merchant and pirate, who had been mistaken for a plundering European pirate.
 
Nice research! Like others said, some things cant be changed (other things can).

Tech development: They could be upgraded to muslim tech, but this would have too be tested. As the game standing right now china usually takes them out within 100ish years (not too historical).

Ships: seems like EU galleys would do well here.
Cannon: Maybe 'A' cost cannon (again, play tested would be needed)
cavalry: any kind of horse tradition? did not seem so.


What kind of suggestions do you have for Saim? If one gets upgraded, the other needs to be adjusted. Also, any info on india/siam/Dai Viet relations?

I ask, because this area of the world could use some tweaking to make it playable and fun, and still keep at least as historically accurate as it is no (read..probably not very accurate).


As far as colonists, the quick and dirty was to do it as a human played country is add a shipyard. For smaller nations this is not unbalancing IME(In My Experience) because they are usually very short of cash anyway.


Again, nice research.


ErrantOne
 
Cavalry: Both Horse and War Elephants

The Vietnamese had cavalry, though perhaps not on a grand scale. It was less common in the southern regions, obviously. There was also a tradition of using war elephants in SE Asian countries including Siam and Dai Viet.

Gunpowder was more developed than the Chinese, especially in the realm of artillery. Siam should probably have a larger army and navy as well and constantly on the look out to exploit a weakness in Dai Viet as well as looking over their shoulder at Burma.

India, Siam, and Dai Viet would have a certain amount of trade going on. India and Siam would have more in common given the greater Hindu influence in terms of religion and culture. The Indian Cholas would, however, be pirating in the region.

The fortifications in Ha Noi are pitiful as depicted in the current IGC. Historically speaking, the north was bristling with different types of outposts and iron fortresses, designed to whittle down the Chinese. They weren't successful in that the forts, by themselves, did not stop the Chinese invasions. But that was never their intent, but rather to bleed the invaders dry and make them cry 'Uncle'. Raise the fort to level 3. Maybe then Dai Viet could withstand an invasion of 290K Manchus.

Anyways, historically speaking, Dai Viet should probably have two major seaports. One in Ha Noi and one in Hoa An, especially Hoa An (currently the most southern region of Dai Viet). It was a huge trading nexus for both European and Asian powers.

Another major suggestion I have to make is that Cambodia, Laos, Burmese, and Khmer/Champa should be nations (as well as Java and other Indonesian nations if they are not already). If you want an analogy, SE Asia is almost like Europe with regards to internecine fighting, constant warfare, and rebellion. But on a smaller scale (even if Viet Nam IS bigger than England), like a knife fight.

Cambodia and Laos were constantly used as pawns between Siam and Dai Viet. Which of course made those small nations none too pleased. What was left of the Champa kingdom would be fighting back with all they had before they get exterminated by the Dai Viet.


I can probably gather more info on Siam, though I was thinking on researching Corea. What say the players?
 
The only limitation with implementing a lot of nations is the tag limit. There is a finite number of nation tags that can be used. If there wasn't the limit, it would probably create havoc with the game code, but it would sure be helpful to the rest of us interested in fiddling with the game. :D
 
The only limitation with implementing a lot of nations is the tag limit.
Click to expand...

Sad but true. If there was enough interest/justification probably 1-2 countries could be added to the region. I really like the idea on island empire in that area of the world (small, but still an empire).

The next minor that I play in the game will be in the SE asia area, was thinking about Siam (or the EU name Annoweurwerljweojfsdfj...well you get the idea).

Us mono-linguistic people have problems remembering names that dont look like words in our native tongue.


ErrantOne
 
Asian Grand Campaign?

Well, how about an IGC with the option to emphasize the Asian nations and empires? I don't know how that would be coded, but if there's a tag limit, maybe in this scenario, you could de-tag minor non-Asian nations so that way you could have room to include all the Pacific Rim nations. Even outside of the SE Asian mainland nations, you have the SE Asian islands like Java, Malaya, Phillipines, etc. Maybe beef up India, Corea, etc.
 
One language? American.
Click to expand...

LOL, probably. Speaking as a mono-linguistic american I look at it this way. I can drive 500 miles and still be in the same state(california) while if i drive 500 miles in one direction in Europe I will either be deep in the Atlantic or have driven through 2-5 nations and have encounters 2-5languagues and probably more. Let alone drive 2200+miles and still be able to speak the same language as the area i left. Unless I head north into canada. Then I just have to say 'A' and 'Aboot(for About)' and I am a native speaker. ;) Quebec is the oddball place in all of North America.

Each region of the world has different needs. Suppose I could learn spanish, but not much day-to-day uses for it...besides ordering food are quite limited.


ErrantOne

PS No habla Espanole (<- see cant even spell in spanish either...a true american. LOL)
 
Re: Some definitions

Originally posted by Olaf_the_White


What do you call a person who speaks:

Two languages? Bi-lingual.
Three or more languages? Multi-lingual.
One language? American. ;)
Click to expand...

Hey, everyone can understand English if you speak it loud and slow enough....or at least so most Americans believe....:)
 
Originally posted by Au Lac

Hmmm, what gives? Its my opinion that the EU team depended too heavily upon the Mercator projection map as opposed to the equal area Galls-Peter map (granted both are rectangular maps and therefore imperfect).
Click to expand...

Actualy, the EU team didn't use the Mercador projection, but another whose name escapes me at the moment. You can tell for several reasons:

1. Siberia and Alaska are skewed somewhat to the north. This is caused by the projection, which represents the North Pole by a curved line which bows inward near the center but upward near the edges, pulling Alaska and Siberia upward with it.

2. Alaska and Siberia should be much closer together. The great distance between them is caused by the fact that the projection the EU team used was originally a flat map whose left and right edges were outward curving lines representing the 180th meridian. They merely stuck the edges together somewhere around Hawaii, leaving huge gaps in the southern and northern Pacific. It's not noticeable in the featureless southern Pacific, but the it causes a huge non-existant opening between Alaska and Siberia.

3. The latitudes on a Mercador projection map run parallel to the top, bottom, and center lines; but this isn't so ont he EU map. The top of the map is around 75 degrees north near Scandanavia, around 65 degrees around Greenland, and down to 55 degrees north around Alaska.
 
Some of these ideas would be applicable in the 1520 scenario, since the Europeans (well, the Portugeuse) are in that area by then. I will post more on this later.
 
Which changes?

Belisarius (after the book series and/or the general?), which changes specifically were you thinking and why IGC 1520? The cannons? SE Asia already had cannons, the Portugese simply improved them. I don't know how'd you would implement them. Lower cost?
 
Re: Which changes?

Originally posted by Au Lac
Belisarius (after the book series and/or the general?), which changes specifically were you thinking and why IGC 1520? The cannons? SE Asia already had cannons, the Portugese simply improved them. I don't know how'd you would implement them. Lower cost?
Click to expand...

Belisarius is after the general, a personal hero of mine. One of the worlds Great Captains, and one of the few to consistently beat both civilized and barbarian armies (despite always being outnumbered). But also a man of great honour, who refused the chance to be made Emperor of the restored Western Roman Empire because it would dishonour his oath of service. He kept that oath his entire life despite the Eastern Emperor's jealousy and ill treatment of him.

I say the IGC 1520 because I am the editor of that particular scenario file in the IGC. Doomdark is of course the IGC judge, and my editing of Paradox's 1520 scenario is basically just to change it into IGC compatibility. I can't add new nations, change other IGC files, etc., except as they are already implemented in the IGC. That being said, the goal of the IGC is historical accuracy while not negatively impacting gameplay. So I will check with Doomdark, but I don't think a few tweaks to make Asia more historical in the 1520 scenario, as long as they do not conflict with the 1492 settings, would be minded.
The ones I had in mind:
A level 3 fort in the Viet border (with China) province, symbolizing the high amount of forts in that area.
A starting fleet for the Viet, Chinese, and Japanese. (They build one by 1520 if you start the game in 1492 anyway, and had fleets at this time historically).
A 20K army in Ho An province of Dai Viet.

On the COT, many nations had trade running through them. We can't give them all a COT. Portugal has a COT in Malacca, and the Viet can send traders there (and to China and Japan's COT) so there is ample opportunity for trade.
For CB vs. China, that will just get the Viet conquered by China. The Viet and Siam do have as national provinces the provinces they historically conquered by the 1700's, so they will have CB vs. any nation in those.
To change the icons/graphics I think is easy, but something you will have to bring to Doomdark's attention to do for the IGC.
On the cannons, the Viet do have some artillery in the 1520 start. (Put in by Paradox, kept in the IGC).
 
Last edited:
Maybe the making of separate versions of the IGC is an idea worth considering. If I play Portugal I would definitely prefer a varied and diverse Asia to rebelling Ukraine, tiny Ragusa, nonexistant Serbia, Greece or Norway.

If one could enhance the IGC-config tool, so it could change which tags are utilized for what then one could conceivably make dozens of options available to the player. This way optional nations could be added, both existing and nonexisting.

Make, say, 10 slots of optional nations, designate which are eligible for this and decide what happens if one deselects one. By default the slots could be set for normal campaign, being filled with the present IGC nations. Then I could, say switch Serbia for Korea or Pommerania for Flanders or Ragusa for Indonesia....

Just my five cents....
 
As one of the people originally involved with the Asian section of the IGC, I can say much of this has been covered in previous discussions in the original IGC thread. Got some quick answers below to summarize the debates, as well as my thoughts on your suggestions.

I agree that it would be great to have more SEA nations, but I too don't have the time to program this all. (In fact I'm trying to wean myself off EU and get back to real life! Not very successfully, I'm afraid. :p ) Actually the files are not hard to edit once one gets used to the game, but you do need a lot of time. One guy to ask is GulFalco who way back said he would implement Burma using the SAR tag that was going to go to New Spain. His files would be a start.

Hope this helps. Now back to real life...:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Au Lac


To begin with, Dai Viet has only 4 provinces. England has a damn lot more. * snip * Now, granted, this is modern data and borders have changed in the past 500 years, but predominantly, Dai Viet was still larger than England.

* The map is hard-coded *

Second, the icons/graphics should be in the realm of Chinese/Japanese soldiers and cities, not Indian graphics. Viet Nam has historically straddled both Sino and Hindu influences because it serves as a gateway to SE Asia, but it was and still is predominantly Confucian in origin. Viet Nam, in addition to Corea, China, and Japan, make up the four "chopstick" civilizations.

* This is a result of using the tag MAH for Dai Viet (formerly the Mahratti states) There are only two Sinic graphic tags, CHI and NIP so the IGC team had to make do with the Indic graphics (see Ayutthaya as well: CYR is a Muslim tag) *

Third, there should be two navies at the seaport of Ha Noi and Hoi An.

* Doable *

Fourth, a CoT should also be at Hoi An.

* Understandable but not recommended for in-game reasons stated elsewhere, e.g. can't give all countries their own COT else Ayutthaya would also have one, and the COTs won't be very big. *

Fifth, all populations should be doubled. Maybe even tripled.

* Doable, and I support this as it should raise census tax incomes yearly *

Sixth, Dai Viet SHOULD have the ability to build cannons, albeit expensively. With regards to firearms, Europe was marginally superior to SE Asian arms until the invention of the machine gun and long range cannons.

* Doable as well *

Seventh, I would suggest that the Dai Viet army be raised to a total of 100K army. 60 in Ha Noi, 20 in Hoa An, and 10K in the other provinces to represent armed militias.

* Doable, though please check the supply levels in each of those provinces so the armies don't wither away. *

Eighth, there should be a permanent Casus Belli against China and Siam. Minor Casus Belli against Champa, Laos, and Cambodia. Allies with Laos and Japan. Siam should be allied with Champa and Cambodia. Dai Viet should have favorable relations with Burma.

* Agree about the CBs vs. China and Siam, as China and Siam should have CBs vs. Vietnam. Wondering though if this will cause a lot of bloodshed, but it did historically. *

Nineth, Dai Viet should have knowledge of India and most if not all of the South Pacific islands, especially Java.

* Agreed, and doable *

Tenth, PLEASE ELIMINATE THE PERMANENT TERRA INCOGNITO. OK, I don't know if that's actually possible, but PLEASE, PLEASE get rid of the damn thing.

* Can't eliminate permanent TI *

Eleventh, there should be a separate Khmer Kingdom (Champa) as well as Cambodia and Laos. Burma too.

* What I do know was that Champa was not a Khmer kingdom but rather a Malay one. What I don't know is if Champa was around in 1492. My impression was that it was annexed in the 14th century or at least well before the game. The bigger problem is the lack of non-European tags for the other kingdoms. To do this with as close-to-proper graphics might mean emptying India and moving the three kingdoms to mainland SEA Asia, which would unbalance India. *

Twelveth, the capital should be in Ha Noi not Hue. That comes later. Currently its known as Dong Do, but later the capital moves to Hue under the Tay Son Dynasty.

* There was a debate about this in the original IGC thread between me and GulFalco. I argued for the historically correct Dong Do, but GulFalco argued for Hue for gameplay reasons (no quick annexation of Dai Viet by China). But having seen a lot of IGC games, I think preventing the military annexation of Dai Viet by China (the frequent diplo-annexes seemed to have been fixed by the introduction of random worsening events) would in fact best be served by putting the capital in Hanoi. *

Thirteenth, state religion should be Buddhist.

* Can't do, as there is no Buddhist state religion. *

Fourteenth, Dai Viet should have the ability to promote Bailiffs. Call it the promotion of mandarins and civil servants who took care of the infrastructure, population, education and collected taxes.

* The same would go for China and Japan, but there are in-game considerations for making full developers of all the Asian states. Something to think about: removing the tech restrictions on the Asian states. *

Fifteenth, does Dai Viet get colonists in the IGC? One of the predominant themes during this time period is the expansion southward and the colonization of the former Khmer/Champa kingdom.

* I too am unhappy with how Dai Viet never gets to complete the March to the South. GulFalco had a fix for this, which was to make Mekong a colony of Dai Viet and give Vietnam a bunch of colonists at the beginning of the game. I like it, and perhaps some random events can be added later giving Vietnam more colonists. But I don't agree with giving it colonial dynamism as we will see strange Vietnam colonies all over the place. *

Sixteenth, Dai Viet, to offset the increased income, should have constant rebellions. Not religious distress, like most East Asian countries Viet Nam had a civil religion, but lots and lots of peasant uprisings in the southern portion. Like, lots.

* I raised this in the original IGC thread, and the fix at the time seemed to be lowered stability. But IMHO I don't think it's enough. Perhaps the fix to this would be to introduce "Time of Troubles" like random events at the historical period for the rebellions in the south. Even better would be to add a revolter to Dai Viet, for the southern provinces with capital at Hue. But again, not enough tags...*
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back