The Christian world in 1187

[Havard]

So... we know that one of the scenarios we'll get is from the third crusade. I've tried to set up a list of the rulers we should expect. Comments?


The British Isles
Kingdom of England - Henry II Plantagenet
Kingdom of Scotland - William the Lion
Principality of Gwynedd - Dafydd I ap Owain, Rhodri II ab Owain and Gryffydd III (!)
Principality of Deheubarth - Rhys ap Gruffydd
Principality of Powys - Gruffydd Maelor (north) and Owain Cyfeiliog (south, cousin of Gryffydd Maelor)
Kingdom of the Isle of Man - Godred IV
Kingdom of Connacht - Conchobar III Máenmaige
Kingdom of Thomond (North Munster) - Donal the Great

France
Kingdom of France - Philip II Augustus
(County of Toulouse - Raymond V)?
(County of Flanders - Philip)?
(County of Bretagne - Arthur I Anjou)?

Germany/HRE
Holy Roman Emperor: Friderich I Barbarossa Hohenstaufen

Duchy of Kärnten - Ulrich II Spontheim
Duchy of Österreich - Leopold V Babenberg
Duchy of Bavaria - Ludwig I Wittelsbach
Duchy of Franken - Conrad II Hohenstaufen
Duke of Sachsen - Bernard III (Ascanian)
Margraviate of Meissen - Otto the Rich (Wettin)
Duchy of Schwaben - Frederick V Hohenstaufen
Margraviate of Brandenburg - Otto II (Ascanian)
Duchy of Lorraine - Simon II de Châtenois
Duchy of Brabant - Godfrey III (count of Louvain, duke of Brabant and Lower Lorraine)
County of Burgundy - Hugh III Capet

Italy
Kingdom of Sicily - William II the Good
Margraviat of Monferrato - Guglielmo III
County of Savoie - Umberto III
(What about Sardinia?)

The Iberian Peninsula
Kingdom of Castile - Alfonso VIII
Kingdom of Leon - Ferdinand II (uncle of Alfonso VIII above)
Kingdom of Navarra - Sancho VI the Wise
Kingdom of Aragon - Alfonso II the Chaste (also count of Barcelona and Provence)
Kingdom of Portugal - Sancho I

Scandinavia
Kingdom of Sweden - Knut Eriksson
Kingdom of Norway - Sverre Sigurdsson
Kingdom of Denmark - Knud IV Valdemarsen

Eastern Europe
Empire of the Bulgars - Asen I
Kingdom of Hungary - Béla III (also king of Croatia)
Duchy of Bohemia - Frederick
Kingdom of Poland - Casimir II the Just
Principality of Rashka (Serbia) - Stephan Nemanja
Grand Princedom of Rus - Vsevolod III Big Nest
Khanate? of the Cumans - ???

The Byzantine Levant
Basileus of Byzantium - Isaac II Angelos
Kingdom of Cilicia - Leo II the Great
Kingdom of Georgia - (Queen) Tamar
Basileus of Cyprus - Isaac Komnenos

The Crusader States
Kingdom of Jerusalem - Guy d'Lusignan
Principality of Antioch - Bohemond III the Stammerer
County of Tripoli - Raymond III (To Antioch in 1187...)

 

[Vandelay]

(What about Sardinia?)

A quick Googling suggest the island was divided in 4 sovereign entities, judices: Cagliari, Torres/ Logudoro, Arborea and Gallura.

Some of these were heavily influenced by the Republic of Pisa but if they had ceased to be truly idependent I don´t know.

Do we have any Italians here to help?

Cheers,
Vandelay

 

[Demetrios]

Sardinia was for the most part ruled by Pisa by this point.

What about Aquitaine? Eleanor was still Duchess there, and it was still technically not part of the English realm, even though her son was king.

 

[unmerged(485)]

Originally posted by Demetrios
Sardinia was for the most part ruled by Pisa by this point.

What about Aquitaine? Eleanor was still Duchess there, and it was still technically not part of the English realm, even though her son was king.

Hadn't the Young King already died by then? Even so Aquataine was not given to him but to Richard (who didn't become king until 1189 although I believe he was at this time Duke of Aquataine). Pretty sure Henry II saw Eleanor's posessions as his own and not as an independent entity.

 

[Havard]

Originally posted by Vandelay
A quick Googling suggest the island was divided in 4 sovereign entities, judices: Cagliari, Torres/ Logudoro, Arborea and Gallura.

I am aware of that. The question is if they are independent enough to be in...

 

[Vandelay]

Some more google-info:

"The kingdom or "giudicato" of Cagliari was politically pro-Genoese. It was brought to an end in 1258 when its capital, S. Igia, was stormed and destroyed by an alliance of Sardinian-Pisan forces. The territory then became a colony of Pisa.

The kingdom of Torres, too, was pro-Genoese a came to an end in 1259, on the death of the "giudicessa" Adel Asia. The territory was divided up between the Dorian family of Genoa and the Bas-Serra family of Arborea, while the city of Sassari became an autonomous city-republic.

The kingdom of Gallura ended in the year 1288, when the last "giudice" Nino Visconti a friend of Dante's, was driven out by the Pisan who occupied the territory.

The kingdom of Arborea was almost always under the political and cultural influence of the powerful marine republic of Pisa. It lasted some 520 years, with Oristano as its capital."

I guess it all comes down to what we define as "independent enough". Has Paradox/ Snowball set up any criteria for this?

Cheers,
Vandelay

 

[Havard]

My guess is they will be left out as Genoese/Pisan dependancies. Makes it a lot easier too (I'm not sure if there are enough provinces to model four kingdoms in Sardinia )

 

[Styrbiorn]

Any reason behind naming the Scandinavian kingdoms with their modern native names while all others are named in English?

 

[Alexandru H.]

Apart from the obvious "paradox"?

 

[unmerged(255)]

random thoughts #1:

Alexandru`s Wallachia vs my Cuman kingdom. What an MP game that`d be!

 

[Vandelay]

I think Latin names would be pretty cool for the Catholic Kingdoms, but in any case naming should be consistent.

Cheers,
Vandelay

 

[unmerged(11633)]

Unless Cumans had converted, they'd be unplayable, until a mod came out.

 

[Vandelay]

My guess is they will be left out as Genoese/Pisan dependancies. Makes it a lot easier too (I'm not sure if there are enough provinces to model four kingdoms in Sardinia )

Have you seen the entire map (or province list) or is that NDA?

Judging from the screenshot Sardinia should have two provinces (Cyprus does) so perhaps one Genoese and one Pisan dependency would be the way to go.

Cheers,
Vandelay

 

[Alexandru H.]

Hey, feel free to contact me about EU2 or HoI, but please hold CK, tuna... I really hope CK will reach my stores pretty soon but I don't think so...

 

[unmerged(255)]

Originally posted by Gjerg Kastrioti
Unless Cumans had converted, they'd be unplayable, until a mod came out.

"The real work of conversions began with that of Duke Borics, together with a number of his family and adherents. Most likely Paul himself baptized these new Christians, or at least the duke. Nearly all the writers give him this credit.

Borics lived for several years afterwards. It is said that his conversion was so sincere that, at the time of his death, his only regret was not to have known God all his life in order to love and serve Him.

Some of the missionaries attended the leader in his final sickness, gave him the last rites of the Church, and buried him in the Chapel of the Blessed Virgin, the first Catholic temple of prayer erected in the land.(9)

Borics' conversion was soon followed by another which, because of the number it involved, was perhaps of still greater importance. It was that of Membrok, one of the leaders among the Cuman princes.

He brought into the Church, with himself, his entire family and about a thousand of his followers. Andrew II, king of Hungary and father of Saint Elizabeth, was one of the sponsors at Membrok's baptism.

He also became a fervent Catholic. Missionaries were at his bedside in his last moments. When he saw the end approaching, he said: "I wish all the pagan Cumans would go out of the room; for I see hideous demons beside them. But let the missionaries and the Christian Cumans remain. Amidst them I see the martyrs who await to take me with them to the joys of heaven which they made known to me." With these words he died. Like Borics, he was buried in the Chapel of the Blessed Virgin.(10)"

Acta Sanctorum, XXXV

PS: The greater majority of Christian Cumans probably melted within one or the other ethnicities that constituted the Hungarian state. There`s also the theory that modern-day Gagauz Turks of Moldava are at least partly of Cuman origin (the fact that Gagauz are Orthodox Christians makes it unlikely that they they were evangalized through Hungarians however)

 

[unmerged(255)]

Originally posted by Alexandru H.
Hey, feel free to contact me about EU2 or HoI, but please hold CK, tuna... I really hope CK will reach my stores pretty soon but I don't think so...

I don`t really play HOI...as for EU2, definitely a possibility I do have to read 300 pages of academic work weekly right now, along with heavy doses of ancient greek and Ottoman turkish... will let you know if I can make it though (Ottoman Empire vs Wallachia 1419 sounds good to you? )

 

[Wulfram]

How about the "Empire" of Cyprus? Isaac Comnenus had proclaimed himself Basileus and ruled there since 1184.

 

[Mettermrck]

So is this scenario pre-Hattin or post? Pre would be nice.

 

[Havard]

Originally posted by Wulfram
How about the "Empire" of Cyprus? Isaac Comnenus had proclaimed himself Basileus and ruled there since 1184.

How could I forget about that one

Oh, and Tuna: Do we know anything about the name of the Cuman leaders around this time?

 

[Eochaid]

As for France:

Kingdom of France - Philip II Augustus
(County of Toulouse - Raymond V)?
(County of Flanders - Philip)?
(County of Bretagne - Arthur I Anjou)?

Philippe II Auguste
Best title: King of France
Current location: Paris
Was born: 1165
Age to game start: 22
Family status: Married, spouse - Isabelle of Hainaut
Father: Louis VII of France
Mother: Adèle of Champagne

Raymond V
Best title: Count of Toulouse
Current location: Toulouse
Was born: 1134
Age to game start: 53
Family status: Married - Richilde of Poland
Father: Alphonse Jourdain of Toulouse
Mother: Faidide of Uzès

Philip/Filip I the Great
Best title: Count of Flanders
Current location: Gand/Ghent
Was born: Unknown
Age to game start: Unknown
Family status: Married, spouse - Mathilda of Portugal
Father: Thierry/Dierdrik of Alsace
Mother: Sybil of Anjou

Arthur I
Best title: Duke of Brittany
Current location: Irrelevant
Was born: April the 30th 1187
Age to game start: 0
Family status: Single
Father: Geoffroy Plantagenêt
Mother: Constance of Brittany

Footnote "Flanders":
Both French and Flemish spell are used for the name of the Counts and their capitol HERE

Footnote "Brittany":
Artur I was the posthume son of Geoffroy and never ruled. The duchy was held by the English King and Artur died in 1203 after being captured in battle while attempting (with Philippe Auguste's support) to regain his estates.